Octopus Overlords

Posted: **Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:04 pm**

I'm right in the thick of it, with way too much reading done on the matter, if anyone else wants to benefit. CPU choices, recent Intel HW security breach, which SSD formats are best, CPU prices vs availability. Also, Our list of hardware sites is sorely outdated, with many of those sites no longer even active.

Lots of consolidation of those kinds of websites as well, of course, with Anandtech and Tom's being bought out, and per usual, for the worse re: content and depth.

Anyhoo, if anyone wants to pick my brain on the latest and greatest wrt building/upgrading, feel free to ask, as I go through this process myself for the first time in quite a few years.

Posted: **Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:29 pm**

I'm in the market for a new gaming notebook. Don't have space for a desktop.

Posted: **Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:34 pm**

The only gaming notebooks Ive ever liked by look and specs...never owned...are ASUS. Im not sure but I think they have some new ones shown at CES this year. Or someone did have some new gaming books.

Posted: **Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:45 pm**

It's a bad time to build/upgrade if you need to include a graphics card. Those prices are insane.

Posted: **Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:57 pm**

Seen the new Titan V? $3000. Not a huge amount faster than a 1080 ti.

Posted: **Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:07 pm**

I have a new rig on order from Cyberpower.

I7-7800x 3.5GHz
MSI Pro X299 motherboard
16 GB Ram
GTX 1070

$1800

I tried to put something together on part picker, and I couldn’t get it under the price if I were to DIY.

Posted: **Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:22 pm**

McNutt wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:45 pm It's a bad time to build/upgrade if you need to include a graphics card. Those prices are insane.

DDR also, thanks to the bitcoin mining craze.

I plan to use my existing old video card for now, but need to upgrade the rest quickly I think, due to recent quirks and hints that something is about to go. I would normally have already upgraded mobo/cpu/ram by now, but the past couple of years have not been kind to me in terms of take home pay compared to previous years.

Posted: **Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:35 pm**

Still trying to decide AMD or Intel. Prices are within $20-30 of each other (I just need mobo, ram, cpu and SSD)

Currently considering one of these two options:

With either option, will get a m.2
500GB Crucial MX500 $134 and use existing 1TB hard drive for storage, photos, etc.

If Intel

CPU:
i5-8400 ($200)

MOBO:
ASrock Z370Extreme4 $125
MSI z370 sli plus $120
gigabyte z370xp Sli $135

RAM:
16GB DDR4-3000 $170
2667 or greater for best performance on this chipset

If AMD:

Ryzen 5 1600 or 1600x $200

MOBO
MSI X370 Gaming Pro Carbon $130
gigabyte ab350 gaming 3 $99
asus strix b350-f gaming $110
gig ax370 gaming k3 $119
msi b350 gaming pro carbon $99

Only $20 to $30 difference between the two systems as you can see, depending on mobo. Will likely eliminate MSI options just due to 2 bad experiences with them and rebates

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:28 pm**

I think the main downside to a new Intel system at this moment is that the motherboards are only the z370s, and those are pricey. At least with AMD you can grab a relatively cheap B350, and that can make a big difference since that money can go towards DDR4 ram.

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:43 am**

Yeah, the reason those motherboards seem high on both systems, is due to the audio chip I’m setting as minimum, the Realtek 1220 chip.

Supposedly it approaches or is equal to the sound quality of a dedicated sound card (finally, after how many Realtek audio codecs?

)

I don’t really want to go bottom dollar on the motherboard, as they tend to cut some corners on not just features, but the manufacture proc as well (cheaper capacitors for instance)

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:34 am**

I dont think onboard sound will ever equal a card especially considering all the electrical interference from around it.

Posted: **Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:12 pm**

As noted, the bitcoin craze has ruined building your own gaming PC. You're better off buying prebuilt systems if you need a new gaming PC now. (Cyberpower, etc)

Posted: **Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:28 am**

If I needed everything, I would, but just need the barebones as they used to call them.

Posted: **Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:26 am**

Not sure on models without looking into it but brands I can say as to what id get.

cpu - Gigabyte
video - EVGA
memory - G-Skill
sound - Creative
hard drive - Samsung
router - Asus

Posted: **Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:39 pm**

motherboard - Asus
video - EVGA or MSI
memory - Corsair, Kingston if on a tight budget
sound - Asus
hard drive - Samsung SSD, Sandisk if on a tight budget
router - whatever is cheapest unless special features are required

That's how I'd rank them. And I agree that onboard sound is never as good as either a decent soundcard or an external DAC/amp. Then again, if you're listening through cheap speakers or cheap headphones it doesn't matter. And your own hearing has a lot to do with it, since if some of your hearing is shot then high quality sound might be wasted on you.

Posted: **Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:22 pm**

gameoverman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:39 pm motherboard - Asus
video - EVGA or MSI
memory - Corsair, Kingston if on a tight budget
sound - Asus
hard drive - Samsung SSD, Sandisk if on a tight budget
router - whatever is cheapest unless special features are required

You just described my system. Just upgraded to 8700k in December.

Posted: **Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:03 am**

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:35 pm Still trying to decide AMD or Intel. Prices are within $20-30 of each other (I just need mobo, ram, cpu and SSD)

Currently considering one of these two options:

With either option, will get a m.2
500GB Crucial MX500 $134 and use existing 1TB hard drive for storage, photos, etc.

If AMD:

Ryzen 5 1600 or 1600x $200

MOBO
MSI X370 Gaming Pro Carbon $130
gigabyte ab350 gaming 3 $99
asus strix b350-f gaming $110
gig ax370 gaming k3 $119
msi b350 gaming pro carbon $99

Only $20 to $30 difference between the two systems as you can see, depending on mobo. Will likely eliminate MSI options just due to 2 bad experiences with them and rebates

Note re the MSI X370 - I have theMSI x370 SLI Plus. It is not all that fast to boot up. Also, if you are using Win7, you will probably need to upgrade to Win10. The MSI X370 chipset does not support Win7 which means you'll need a PS2 keyboard and PS2 mouse to get Win7 set up.

You should check issues with any mobo now - both Intel and AMD mobos can have the same "no support for usb ports for Win7" issue.

Posted: **Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:26 am**

I also dont like MSI due to a video card failure.

Posted: **Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:29 am**

I've only just started looking at a new build as I'm waiting for the new nVidia GPUs to come out. I'm still going Intel for my CPU since this PC is mostly built for gaming, but I'm definitely keeping an eye on the Meltdown/Spectre issue. My $.02 on motherboards, the software and bios on my current Gigabyte x99 Gaming mobo is complete garbage. If you want to overclock or like to tweak settings I would research what their currently using. My MSI & Asus mobo software are/were much more user friendly and actually work. Hardware/component wise the board has been fine though. So if you're not getting an unlocked Intel CPU it's not a big deal, elsewise I would lean toward an Asus Z370 mobo for Intel's K CPUs. Other than that I haven't heard of any must avoid components from the name brand companies, but as I've said, I just started the research.

Posted: **Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:40 am**

I think I have decided to go with Intel over AMD. If you look at all the reviews comparing i5 with Ryzen, every one I saw was using a slower i5 than the one I picked, and the Intel beat in many tests. Now that the price parity includes a model or two above for Intel, it's a no brainer for me.
15 8400 about $200
AMD Ryzen 5 1600 about $200

500GB Crucial MX500

CPU:
i5-8400

MOBO:
MSI z370 sli plus

RAM:
16GB DDR4-3000

About $600 total.

Posted: **Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:25 pm**

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:40 am I think I have decided to go with Intel over AMD. If you look at all the reviews comparing i5 with Ryzen, every one I saw was using a slower i5 than the one I picked, and the Intel beat in many tests. Now that the price parity includes a model or two above for Intel, it's a no brainer for me.
15 8400 about $200
AMD Ryzen 5 1600 about $200

500GB Crucial MX500

CPU:
i5-8400

MOBO:
MSI z370 sli plus

RAM:
16GB DDR4-3000

About $600 total.

but how much would the video card add?

Posted: **Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:13 pm**

hitbyambulance wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:25 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:40 am I think I have decided to go with Intel over AMD. If you look at all the reviews comparing i5 with Ryzen, every one I saw was using a slower i5 than the one I picked, and the Intel beat in many tests. Now that the price parity includes a model or two above for Intel, it's a no brainer for me.
15 8400 about $200
AMD Ryzen 5 1600 about $200

500GB Crucial MX500

CPU:
i5-8400

MOBO:
MSI z370 sli plus

RAM:
16GB DDR4-3000

About $600 total.
but how much would the video card add?

Not currently in market for a video card, so I have no idea. I will definitely be waiting for the bitcoin inflated prices to go down before even considering a video card upgrade. Currently I am ok with my old card - running everything I play fine, at max or close to max detail.

Posted: **Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:40 pm**

From an older article on Tom's. Note that they are comparing the much older (and worse, spec-wise) Realtek ALC899 (the current top of line Realtek codec is 1220)

"but it's true that neither an intermediate enthusiast nor a serious one with ~$70,000 in gear at home were able to reliably tell apart any of the four devices once we properly set up a blind test with accurate volume-matching. We actually enjoyed them all as great audio experiences.

Using world-class headphones, a $2 Realtek integrated audio codec could not be reliably distinguished from the $2000 Benchmark DAC2 HGC in a four-device round-up. Again, all four devices sounded great."

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/hig ... 33-19.html

Posted: **Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:59 pm**

I can tell..well 6 years ago when i built my system I could Onboard was not clear and crisp and was muddy and muffled.

Posted: **Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:39 pm**

Daehawk wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:59 pm I can tell..well 6 years ago when i built my system I could Onboard was not clear and crisp and was muddy and muffled.

Apparently they have come a long way in 6 years. Also, even $100 motherboards now have "walled off" audio circuitry, something that my previous motherboards did not do.

Posted: **Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:41 pm**

Also has a lot to do with how well the motherboard maker implements the audio. You can have two different motherboards using the same onboard audio chip, and one sounds horrible, and the other pristine. My current challenge is trying to find an affordable board that has the top end chip AND a good implementation.

Posted: **Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:09 pm**

Dedicated sound cards are not expensive unless you go high end then theres no reason for that unless you make music. I think mine was $89 years ago and I could have gotten much cheaper but wanted a really good Sound Blaster Z just because Im me

..not the best but not the cheapest either. Had the money at the time.

Posted: **Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:09 pm**

In my experience the lower cost motherboards have onboard audio with a much higher, and therefore noticeable, noise floor. That degrades the sound.

Now you are faced with a choice. Spend more for the motherboard with the higher quality onboard sound implementation or get a soundcard or DAC/amp. For me that choice is obvious. I'm not going to pay more and still wind up with onboard sound. If I'm going to spend more then I'll get discrete components, not an all in one solution. For one thing this allows me to choose a component that is suited for my particular needs, rather than settle for what the manufacturer included.

It's sort of similar to putting together a stereo system or home surround sound system. Getting individual components, if properly chosen, will result in better sound. However it's not convenient or low cost. Buying an all in one system is very convenient. You just plug it all in and you're done. No worries about which component is better and so on. It's cheaper too, since those systems are usually not aimed at the picky audiophile.

If on the other hand you go out and buy an expensive all in one system, you have defeated the purpose. You have spent more and still won't have the best sound for the money.

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:31 am**

gameoverman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:09 pm In my experience the lower cost motherboards have onboard audio with a much higher, and therefore noticeable, noise floor. That degrades the sound.

Now you are faced with a choice. Spend more for the motherboard with the higher quality onboard sound implementation or get a soundcard or DAC/amp. For me that choice is obvious. I'm not going to pay more and still wind up with onboard sound. If I'm going to spend more then I'll get discrete components, not an all in one solution. For one thing this allows me to choose a component that is suited for my particular needs, rather than settle for what the manufacturer included.

It's sort of similar to putting together a stereo system or home surround sound system. Getting individual components, if properly chosen, will result in better sound. However it's not convenient or low cost. Buying an all in one system is very convenient. You just plug it all in and you're done. No worries about which component is better and so on. It's cheaper too, since those systems are usually not aimed at the picky audiophile.

If on the other hand you go out and buy an expensive all in one system, you have defeated the purpose. You have spent more and still won't have the best sound for the money.

I would say that in terms of costs, a better sound chip is probably the least expensive upgrade in terms of price parts for motherboards. Many other considerations like better design, higher tolerances, better quality materials, etc.

Also, considering the Tom's article linked above, I'm sold on getting a motherboard with a PCB separated audio component using the latest greatest sound chip. $100 to get that, FWIW.

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:35 pm**

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:07 pm I have a new rig on order from Cyberpower.

I7-7800x 3.5GHz
MSI Pro X299 motherboard
16 GB Ram
GTX 1070

$1800

I tried to put something together on part picker, and I couldn’t get it under the price if I were to DIY.

Should be here today.

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:37 pm**

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:31 amI would say that in terms of costs, a better sound chip is probably the least expensive upgrade in terms of price parts for motherboards. Many other considerations like better design, higher tolerances, better quality materials, etc.

Also, considering the Tom's article linked above, I'm sold on getting a motherboard with a PCB separated audio component using the latest greatest sound chip. $100 to get that, FWIW.

It's not so much that they tack on X dollars specifically for the improved sound. It's more that a motherboard that has that upgraded sound will also have upgraded everything else, so that's what makes it cost more. It's probably a very small niche market of people who want a basic low cost motherboard...with killer sound. However, I can get that by purchasing the basic low cost motherboard then adding my own sound solution to it.

I use my computer for movies and music too though, so flaws are more noticeable. In the heat of the moment while gaming I know I wouldn't notice the difference. So usage has a lot to do with it too.

Posted: **Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:04 pm**

gameoverman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:37 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:31 amI would say that in terms of costs, a better sound chip is probably the least expensive upgrade in terms of price parts for motherboards. Many other considerations like better design, higher tolerances, better quality materials, etc.

Also, considering the Tom's article linked above, I'm sold on getting a motherboard with a PCB separated audio component using the latest greatest sound chip. $100 to get that, FWIW.
It's not so much that they tack on X dollars specifically for the improved sound. It's more that a motherboard that has that upgraded sound will also have upgraded everything else, so that's what makes it cost more. It's probably a very small niche market of people who want a basic low cost motherboard...with killer sound. However, I can get that by purchasing the basic low cost motherboard then adding my own sound solution to it.

I use my computer for movies and music too though, so flaws are more noticeable. In the heat of the moment while gaming I know I wouldn't notice the difference. So usage has a lot to do with it too.

Did you read that Tom's article?

Posted: **Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:21 am**

the MSI motherboard in my work VR PC just died, a week outside of the 12 month warranty

Posted: **Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:40 am**

Also, considering the Tom's article linked above, I'm sold on getting a motherboard with a PCB separated audio component using the latest greatest sound chip. $100 to get that, FWIW.

im the type that doesn't understand that reasoning. I paid $89 years ago for the 2nd best sound card from Creative and get great sound. With me the only way Id stick to onboard is if I just did NOT in no way have a free slot for a sound card. Then most likely Id dump something else

When i upgraded in 2011 I used onboard for 2 days and decided I had to order a sound card again.

Posted: **Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:51 am**

hitbyambulance wrote:the MSI motherboard in my work VR PC just died, a week outside of the 12 month warranty

Email them anyway. The worst that can happen is they don’t help.

Posted: **Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:15 am**

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:35 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:07 pm I have a new rig on order from Cyberpower.

I7-7800x 3.5GHz
MSI Pro X299 motherboard
16 GB Ram
GTX 1070

$1800

I tried to put something together on part picker, and I couldn’t get it under the price if I were to DIY.
Should be here today.

Did you get it?! I'm excited for you!

I'm pathetic!

I actually pulled the trigger on my upgrade yesterday. I priced out a system at ibuypower and it came surprisingly close. I paid $622, and if I subtract out the cost of video card and case from the ibuypower system, it gets down to around $840. Of course their 3 year warranty is worth something (but to me, not much).

If I were needing a whole new system, I would definitely buy from them (or Cyberpower, same thing). Also, if video cards were not so crazy high right now (artificially high due to bitcoin mining), I would probably have gone that route since I think adding a video card would get me a lot closer to a "build it myself" price.

My goodies:
Intel i5 8400
16GB
Gigabyte mobo
500GB Crucial MX500 SSD

And fwiw, if anyone out there is contemplating an SSD purchase, I highly recommend you look at the newly released MX500 series Crucials. They outperform the previous king, the aged but still excellent Samsung 850 EVO, and have almost double the predicted lifespan rating as well (and a longer warranty). All this, and they are cheaper than the Samsungs.

Posted: **Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:31 am**

I did. The wife got the first game, a round of PUBG. She is delighted at the lack of lag and increased graphics detail over the old potato.

I haven’t had too much time to devote to it, and I’m slacking on studying for this week’s midterm, so it might be next week before I can really get my feet wet.

Posted: **Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:33 am**

Daehawk wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:40 am
Also, considering the Tom's article linked above, I'm sold on getting a motherboard with a PCB separated audio component using the latest greatest sound chip. $100 to get that, FWIW.
im the type that doesn't understand that reasoning. I paid $89 years ago for the 2nd best sound card from Creative and get great sound. With me the only way Id stick to onboard is if I just did NOT in no way have a free slot for a sound card. Then most likely Id dump something else When i upgraded in 2011 I used onboard for 2 days and decided I had to order a sound card again.

It's not "reasoning" the way I think you mean it, though. It's based on a blind listening test comparing an onboard audio chip and several dedicated sound cards (from cheap to expensive), using high end headphones. Unless that article is just completely made up, audiophiles COULD NOT TELL THE DIFFERENCE.

"Using world-class headphones, a $2 Realtek integrated audio codec could not be reliably distinguished from the $2000 Benchmark DAC2 HGC in a four-device round-up. Again, all four devices sounded great. The same might not apply to full-sized speakers; we can't say, since we didn't test them. But as far as some of the best headphones in the world go, we stand by these test results.

While calibration does show that Realtek's ALC889 is less linear, and thus less hi-fi than the other devices we're looking at, the 1.4 dB difference at 100 Hz apparently isn't enough to reliably differentiate the experience it delivers from others in real-world scenarios."

Posted: **Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:56 pm**

Guess its them then because I could tell a difference 6 years ago. Onboard was muffled at worse and a little hiss at least. Its was the muffled sound that made me change back to a card.

Posted: **Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:59 pm**

Why don't you just use a separate receiver and pass digital from computer to receiver and never worry about it again.

I have used on board ever since hardware acceleration was killed by Vista OS then on.

Octopus Overlords

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