Shootings

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82098
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur »

How about observe, orient, decide, act? But, like, repeatedly.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
YellowKing
Posts: 30126
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:02 pm

Re: Shootings

Post by YellowKing »

If playground slides were the leading cause of death among children in our country, we'd have laws passed tomorrow to fix the problem.

Hell, we do more to prevent things that cause ONE kid's death than we do to prevent the leading cause of their death. If a car seat kills ONE kid, there's a nationwide recall and it's completely re-engineered. But thousands of kids? Our hands are tied. Thoughts and prayers.
Last edited by YellowKing on Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Shootings

Post by GreenGoo »

I thought congress made it illegal to observe? Where's the gun data at?
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43501
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Shootings

Post by Blackhawk »

GreenGoo wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:03 pm I'm just sick of all the reasons nothing can be done or if it's done, it won't matter.
I'm not against you here. I also get sick of nothing getting done, but I also believe that getting 'something' done purely for the sake of having done something is, at best, a waste, and at worst, counterproductive by creating a false sense of progress, reducing momentum. I mean, typing "thoughts and prayers" is doing something, it's just not doing anything meaningful.

What I'm really sick of us the US reacting to gun violence instead of proacting to it with an actual strategy other than "OH MY GOD! WE HAVE TO DO A THING!", or extreme ideas that would be great, but will never make it through Congress, the SC, and the states. We're wasting our time on feel good measures and impossible approaches instead of figuring out a way to actually make progress, mostly because the real solutions are long-term and don't make headlines. They don't make people feel good like banning the color black on guns 'just because.' They don't get votes.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
YellowKing
Posts: 30126
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:02 pm

Re: Shootings

Post by YellowKing »

We've already got plenty of evidence at what works and what doesn't. We have 50 states with differing levels of gun control that we can look at to see what's working and what's not. Why do we need another study to show whether or not background checks work or assault rifle bans work or or red flag laws work? We already know they work.
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43501
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Shootings

Post by Blackhawk »

Blue state: Loosening the restrictions on concealed carry results in an increase in gun violence.
Red state: Violence is increasing. We need to make it easier to protect ourselves.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Shootings

Post by GreenGoo »

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:24 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:03 pm I'm just sick of all the reasons nothing can be done or if it's done, it won't matter.
I'm not against you here. I also get sick of nothing getting done, but I also believe that getting 'something' done purely for the sake of having done something is, at best, a waste, and at worst, counterproductive by creating a false sense of progress, reducing momentum.
You say this a lot, and while I agree with you in theory, I'm not asking for knee jerk laws. Any progress is a good thing. My only concern would be cost/benefit.

And momentum works in the opposite way that you imply it does.
User avatar
Zaxxon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 28118
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: Shootings

Post by Zaxxon »

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:48 pm Blue state: Loosening the restrictions on concealed carry results in an increase in gun violence.
Red state: Violence is increasing. We need to make it easier to protect ourselves.
All states: AR-15s and high-capacity magazines greatly increase the average death & wounded count, and are used in a massive percentage of mass shootings. Let's take the obvious action of removing those from circulation immediately.

That'd be the 'in any semblance of a sane world' step one.
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43501
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Shootings

Post by Blackhawk »

Zaxxon wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 5:08 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:48 pm Blue state: Loosening the restrictions on concealed carry results in an increase in gun violence.
Red state: Violence is increasing. We need to make it easier to protect ourselves.
All states: AR-15s and high-capacity magazines greatly increase the average death & wounded count, and are used in a massive percentage of mass shootings. Let's take the obvious action of removing those from circulation immediately.

That'd be the 'in any semblance of a sane world' step one.
They are also one of the most popular firearms, there are a hundred variants that make it hard to define what constitutes an AR-15, and they are one of the top money makers for the organizations that fund the lobbiests.

/edit Er, lobbyists. Autocorrect - you feeling OK?

Plus, Red states have been granted the power to rewrite the narrative into whatever best suits their end goal (as in my quote above), and red has to be on board to enact such a ban.

In other words, you are right, but we don't live in any variant of a sane world.
Last edited by Blackhawk on Fri Apr 14, 2023 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
Zaxxon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 28118
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: Shootings

Post by Zaxxon »

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 5:48 pmIn other words, you are right, but we don't live in any variant of a sane world.
Indeed.
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55318
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

If we want to talk about legislation, we definitely need to define an "AR15" or "Assault Weapon." We also need to realize that gun makers are clever and can circumvent a lot of laws (See: AB-10, countless mods, etc). At the same time, laws can't be too vaguely broad or they will get shot down easily. Illinois is a good example of a poorly written AWB.

There are plenty of past examples of how these law are dismantled. While it's hard to fight stacked courts it is still possible to write better laws.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82098
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur »

Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:42 pm [T]he FBI isn't cool enough to break out pistols, revolvers, and derringers from handguns in their homicide statistics.

If you are murdered, it's more likely to be by being beaten to death by an unarmed assailant than shot by a rifle or shotgun.
Eight years of statistics later...
Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) - 397
Rifles - 364
Shotguns - 200
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26377
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Shootings

Post by Unagi »

GreenGoo wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:03 pm I'm just sick of all the reasons nothing can be done or if it's done, it won't matter.

And while I haven't mentioned it recently, I've certainly agreed in the past that a cultural shift is required for long ranging results.

Listen, half your country want to vote a proven con-man back into office. For some reason. At that point, all bets are off on anything. Reap what you sow.
I’m jealous of your passport.


I support a multi prong approach.

- start changing the culture
- start destroying guns from crimes (also start to limit production, give massive incentive to turn in/buy-back)
- start limiting access to guns (one would need for community sponsorship on sone degree for starters, or belong to a state affiliated and well regulated militia)
- expand the Supreme Court fucking pronto and take another swing at the 2A.
- keep trying to educate children
- force police funding to address mental health issues (or defund them to reappropriate funds for an entity that does)
- empower more women
- don’t just listen to people, and remember: Change the Culture!!
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Shootings

Post by GreenGoo »

Unagi wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:49 pm I’m jealous of your passport.
Don't be. Many citizens here are learning from your MAGA examples. See Tucker's support of the trucker protest here as just one example.

I might actually retire out of NA completely and then never watch/read the news again. Ever.

I agree with everything you've said re: guns.
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82098
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur »

Dadeville, AL
A mass shooting left four people dead and others injured in downtown Dadeville, Alabama, state officials said.

The shooting happened just after 10:30 p.m. Saturday, the Alabama Law Enforcement Agency said.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Kurth
Posts: 5882
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
Location: Portland

Re: Shootings

Post by Kurth »

Barely catches my attention these days.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55318
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:57 am Barely catches my attention these days.
That's a slow Friday night here.

Sat: 15 shot,5 dead.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Kurth
Posts: 5882
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
Location: Portland

Re: Shootings

Post by Kurth »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 12:07 pm
Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:57 am Barely catches my attention these days.
That's a slow Friday night here.

Sat: 15 shot,5 dead.
My wife is in Chicago all week for an event. Makes me a worried.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26377
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Shootings

Post by Unagi »

Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 12:08 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 12:07 pm
Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:57 am Barely catches my attention these days.
That's a slow Friday night here.

Sat: 15 shot,5 dead.
My wife is in Chicago all week for an event. Makes me a worried.
A vast vast majority of this stuff happens in specific bad neighborhoods. It's not likely she will run into any trouble. But, I understand the concern... Just trying to help you feel less worried.
User avatar
Kurth
Posts: 5882
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
Location: Portland

Re: Shootings

Post by Kurth »

Unagi wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 1:49 pm
Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 12:08 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 12:07 pm
Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:57 am Barely catches my attention these days.
That's a slow Friday night here.

Sat: 15 shot,5 dead.
My wife is in Chicago all week for an event. Makes me a worried.
A vast vast majority of this stuff happens in specific bad neighborhoods. It's not likely she will run into any trouble. But, I understand the concern... Just trying to help you feel less worried.
Thanks, Unagi. She made it back in one piece, and, honestly, I wasn't all that worried. We both travel to Chicago pretty frequently and have never had any issues. It's actually one of my favorite cities. It was a revelation to me when I first visited and realized you could live away from one of the coasts and not be landlocked!

I've yet to be in Chicago and feel unsafe, personally, in the same way I do when I go into Portland sometimes.

That said, friends and colleagues who work in Chicago have reported that the crime - specifically the shootings and violent crime - have been less confined to specific areas than they used to be. They've talked about car-jackings right off the Magnificent Mile and Millennium Park and an overall increase in crime in areas of Chicago that used to be considered pretty safe.

While my wife was in Chicago for this trip, I saw reports about teens "wilding" in Millennium Park. I took that with a big grain of salt, but still . . . not a great look.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26377
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Shootings

Post by Unagi »

Kurth wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:16 pm
That said, friends and colleagues who work in Chicago have reported that the crime - specifically the shootings and violent crime - have been less confined to specific areas than they used to be. They've talked about car-jackings right off the Magnificent Mile and Millennium Park and an overall increase in crime in areas of Chicago that used to be considered pretty safe.
That is true. There have been a few really crazy things go down in the Loop.
User avatar
Zaxxon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 28118
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: Shootings

Post by Zaxxon »

Progress, albeit baby steps, in Colorado today.
Colorado governor signs four gun bills into law in a historic change to the state’s firearm regulations
The bills expand the state’s red flag law, raise the minimum age to purchase guns, impose a three-day waiting period for firearm purchases and make it easier to sue the gun industry.

Still pending in the legislature, and expected to pass soon, is a fifth bill that would ban the creation and sale of unserialized firearms, also known as “ghost guns.”
User avatar
dbt1949
Posts: 25688
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:34 am
Location: Hogeye Arkansas

Re: Shootings

Post by dbt1949 »

I wonder if instead of trying to limit gun sales they tried limiting ammo sales and manufacture.
Yes there are people who can make their own ammo but they aren't the type doing the mass shootings. And even if they sell it, it wouldn't be but a faction of what's currently available. And the brass eventually breaks down after a few shots and can't be used again.
Ye Olde Farte
Double Ought Forty
aka dbt1949
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26377
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Shootings

Post by Unagi »

dbt1949 wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 11:00 pm I wonder if instead of trying to limit gun sales they tried limiting ammo sales and manufacture.
Yes there are people who can make their own ammo but they aren't the type doing the mass shootings. And even if they sell it, it wouldn't be but a faction of what's currently available. And the brass eventually breaks down after a few shots and can't be used again.
This was Chris Rock's suggestion a long time ago.

“You don’t need no gun control, you know what you need? We need some bullet control. Men, we need to control the bullets, that’s right. I think all bullets should cost five thousand dollars… five thousand dollars per bullet… You know why? Cause if a bullet cost five thousand dollars there would be no more innocent bystanders.
Yeah! Every time somebody get shut we’d say, ‘Damn, he must have done something ... Shit, he’s got fifty thousand dollars worth of bullets in his ass.’
And people would think before they killed somebody if a bullet cost five thousand dollars. ‘Man I would blow your fucking head off…if I could afford it.’"


However, more seriously - I could see someone pointing out that the 2A doesn't protect anyone's right to own ammunition. We could make laws that regulated it to a degree that may end up being meaningful.
User avatar
Zaxxon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 28118
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: Shootings

Post by Zaxxon »

Peak 'Murica.
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43501
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Shootings

Post by Blackhawk »

(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
Alefroth
Posts: 8489
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Bellingham WA

Re: Shootings

Post by Alefroth »

An armed society is a polite society.
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26377
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Shootings

Post by Unagi »

Police have named the suspect as a Mexican national... the property he was on was surrounded by an iron gate.

I'm not sure if I've just watched to many series on Netflix, but something makes me think this guy could be connected to the cartel.
Freyland
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:03 pm

Re: Shootings

Post by Freyland »

Just a gate? Must have taken *forever* for it to swing open.
Sims 3 and signature unclear.
User avatar
Alefroth
Posts: 8489
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Bellingham WA

Re: Shootings

Post by Alefroth »

Unagi wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:21 pm Police have named the suspect as a Mexican national... the property he was on was surrounded by an iron gate.
Welp, that's all we'll be hearing from the right.
User avatar
waitingtoconnect
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 5:56 am

Re: Shootings

Post by waitingtoconnect »

Unagi wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:58 am
dbt1949 wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 11:00 pm I wonder if instead of trying to limit gun sales they tried limiting ammo sales and manufacture.
Yes there are people who can make their own ammo but they aren't the type doing the mass shootings. And even if they sell it, it wouldn't be but a faction of what's currently available. And the brass eventually breaks down after a few shots and can't be used again.
This was Chris Rock's suggestion a long time ago.

“You don’t need no gun control, you know what you need? We need some bullet control. Men, we need to control the bullets, that’s right. I think all bullets should cost five thousand dollars… five thousand dollars per bullet… You know why? Cause if a bullet cost five thousand dollars there would be no more innocent bystanders.
Yeah! Every time somebody get shut we’d say, ‘Damn, he must have done something ... Shit, he’s got fifty thousand dollars worth of bullets in his ass.’
And people would think before they killed somebody if a bullet cost five thousand dollars. ‘Man I would blow your fucking head off…if I could afford it.’"


However, more seriously - I could see someone pointing out that the 2A doesn't protect anyone's right to own ammunition. We could make laws that regulated it to a degree that may end up being meaningful.
Strictly speaking it doesn’t have a restriction on arms up to and including nuclear weapons. The limitation legislated by Congress proves real reforms can be done and that the current crisis is about making money for companies not protection and not freedumb.
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43690
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Shootings

Post by Kraken »

From Heather Cox Richardson's Friday column:
A new Fox News poll out yesterday shows that 87% of voters favor background checks for gun purchases, 81% favor making 21 the minimum age to buy a gun, 80% want mental health care checks on all gun buyers, 80% want flags for people who are dangerous to themselves or others, 77% want a 30-day waiting period to buy a gun, and 61% want an assault weapons ban.
The US doesn't need a major culture shift so much as it needs political accountability. Large majorities are already on board with reasonable regulation.
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43690
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Shootings

Post by Kraken »

Also, where I live if my neighbor is shooting a gun I don't walk over and ask him to do it more quietly, I call 911 and hope that a SWAT team shows up to deal with it for me.
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26377
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Shootings

Post by Unagi »

Kraken wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 1:11 am Also, where I live if my neighbor is shooting a gun I don't walk over and ask him to do it more quietly, I call 911 and hope that a SWAT team shows up to deal with it for me.
That's exactly how it would go down here too.
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26377
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Shootings

Post by Unagi »

Freyland wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:44 pm Just a gate? Must have taken *forever* for it to swing open.
heh, yeah - I think there was some fence too.
User avatar
waitingtoconnect
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 5:56 am

Re: Shootings

Post by waitingtoconnect »

YellowKing wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:44 pm We've already got plenty of evidence at what works and what doesn't. We have 50 states with differing levels of gun control that we can look at to see what's working and what's not. Why do we need another study to show whether or not background checks work or assault rifle bans work or or red flag laws work? We already know they work.
Things that reduce gun violence are training, mandatory membership of gun clubs, national guard style militia training and licensing. All things the NRA has sought to undermine but in the 1980s fully supported.

Any historian will tell you that the 2nd amendment means community self protection from native tribes and European powers (as in Europe at the time the monarchs would lock up arms in armouries and the people would not be allowed to be armed). Community self protection is clear in the phrasing “well regulated militia”.
Zenn7
Posts: 4447
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Shootings

Post by Zenn7 »

Unagi wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:49 pm - force police funding to address mental health issues (or defund them to reappropriate funds for an entity that does)
In whatever places that actually did any defunding of police, did they follow the second half of that idea and use the defunding to set up appropriate resources to handle the things the police were not supposed to need to handle any more?

Somehow, I'm picturing it more like:
Step 1: defund the police
Step 2: reallocate money to something totally unrelated (like my main campaign contributor's business).
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Shootings

Post by malchior »

There was effectively zero police defunding. And little or no police reform. Something like a 1% reduction in spending was announced in local initiatives through end of 2021 that mostly meant open positions went unfilled. Over the last year the spigots have reopened with cities like NYC awarding lavish contracts to the police while cutting services. The police have far too much power here.
User avatar
waitingtoconnect
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 5:56 am

Re: Shootings

Post by waitingtoconnect »

YellowKing wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:05 pm If playground slides were the leading cause of death among children in our country, we'd have laws passed tomorrow to fix the problem.

Hell, we do more to prevent things that cause ONE kid's death than we do to prevent the leading cause of their death. If a car seat kills ONE kid, there's a nationwide recall and it's completely re-engineered. But thousands of kids? Our hands are tied. Thoughts and prayers.
My beloved “Ankle-Breaker” Is my constitutional right damnit!! No one will take her from my Cold dead hands, She’s being buried with me!
malchior wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:18 pm There was effectively zero police defunding. And little or no police reform. Something like a 1% reduction in spending was announced in local initiatives through end of 2021 that mostly meant open positions went unfilled. Over the last year the spigots have reopened with cities like NYC awarding lavish contracts to the police while cutting services. The police have far too much power here.
It’s a classic wedge. Democrats know they can’t defund police or they will lose independent voters. Usually the cops stop going to a particular minority area for a while to get attention from media when it all goes bad.
Post Reply