Shootings

[Isgrimnur]

Reddit - Defensive Gun Use

[Pyperkub]

So much winning

While disturbing, view the content.

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[Unagi]

So much winning

While disturbing, view the content.

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Must be logged into Twitter to view.

[YellowKing]

I think every one of these gun loving politicians should be forced to tour the crime scene after every one of these shootings. And talk to the parents whose 5 year old is dead and tell them why their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is more important than the life of a child.

[Alefroth]

So much winning

While disturbing, view the content.

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That's probably the video I warned about, huh?

[Blackhawk]

Reddit - Defensive Gun Use

I have a funny feeling that they may be cherry-picking the data a little, and single self-defense shooting are not what this is about. It's about mass shootings being stopped by the fabled 'good guy with a gun.' That said, I do believe there was a mall shooting a while back that ended that way, resulting in fewer casualties. The math the 2nd Amendment people point to is 1 gun = 10 deaths, but 2 guns = 6 deaths. They then assume that it's a progression, and 50 guns = 0 deaths, despite that flying in the face of logic (50 guns = more shoot-outs over minor annoyances.) And they conveniently forget the part where 0 guns = 0 deaths.

[malchior]

I wasn't going to get into it because defensive gun usage is always the stock retort but there are unfortunately no solid stats on it. Even counting those that are reported "in the paper" is not necessarily accurate because they may adjudicate differently once properly investigated. FWIW I suspect there is no data for a reason. Like how we don't collect statistics about people killed by the police. If we collected data, it'd undermine the narrative that lives in people's imaginations.

[Isgrimnur]

And then the cops shoot the good guy with a gun.

[LawBeefaroni]

So much winning

While disturbing, view the content.

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That's probably the video I warned about, huh?

I think it's a still from the video.

Remember when that pro life PAC put up billboards with photos of aborted fetuses? They had those billboard trucks driving all over tourist areas too.

Wonder what the response would be for an ad campaign featuring graphic gunshot fatalities?

[Skinypupy]

We can now add 14-year-olds playing hide and seek to the list of things that these brave, well regulated militia members need to “stand their ground” from by simply…opening fire.

[Sudy]

Several kids were playing in the area and used a neighbor’s property to hide, according to the sheriff’s office. The property owner, identified as Doyle, told deputies he went inside and grabbed his gun after he saw shadows outside his home, the release said. Doyle said when he went back outside, he saw several people running from his property and opened fire.

Read more at: https://www.sunherald.com/news/nation-w ... rylink=cpy [same link as Sp's]

What the actual fuck.

See shadows. Grab gun. See people running away. Open fire. Well done America!

[malchior]

Yup.

[LawBeefaroni]

Several kids were playing in the area and used a neighbor’s property to hide, according to the sheriff’s office. The property owner, identified as Doyle, told deputies he went inside and grabbed his gun after he saw shadows outside his home, the release said. Doyle said when he went back outside, he saw several people running from his property and opened fire.

Read more at: https://www.sunherald.com/news/nation-w ... rylink=cpy [same link as Sp's]

What the actual fuck.

See shadows. Grab gun. See people running away. Open fire. Well done America!

He was arrested and charged with aggravated battery, four counts of aggravated assault with a firearm and illegal discharge of a firearm, deputies said. Doyle remained in jail as of May 8, online records show.

We'll see what sticks. He's lucky that no one was killed.

[Isgrimnur]

[Isgrimnur]

Detroit

A victim in a Saturday triple-shooting at a Detroit gas station says the gunman warned a clerk during a dispute that he would shoot every customer in the store before opening fire.

David Langston says he pleaded “don’t shoot” to the gunman, who, according to police, was angered in a dispute with the clerk over $3. He said his best friend, Gregory Karlos Samuel Fortner-Kelly, also begged the gas station’s clerk to open the locked doors of the business and let them out before being shot.The doors remained locked and the gunman shot the customers inside, Langston told Free Press reporter Jasmin Barmore, who is a friend of the victims.Langston, Fortner-Kelly and another patron were shot. Fortner-Kelly, 37, was killed.

Wayne County Prosecuting Attorney Kym Worthy confirmed late Tuesday evening that the clerk locked the gas station with the patrons and shooter inside.

Samuel Anthony McCray, 27, of Detroit is charged in the triple-shooting with first-degree murder, two counts of assault with intent to murder, three counts of felony firearm, and another count of possessing a firearm as a felon.

Worthy said McCray allegedly attempted to make a purchase inside the gas station, and when his card was declined, he attempted to leave with unpurchased items. The clerk then locked the doors, Worthy said in a news release.

McCray allegedly began arguing with the clerk before he opened fire inside the locked gas station, Worthy said. After three people had been shot, the clerk unlocked the door and McCray fled, Worthy said.

McCray was apprehended by police Sunday.

[LordMortis]

WTF? Leaving aside the guy who needs to rot in prison I hope the victims sue the gas station and clerk into oblivion. Locking people in with an armed robber over $3? My day is ruined reading both about someone willing to murder over $3 and someone sealing the death of bystanders over trying to protect against the loss of $3.

[Pyperkub]

New Mexico today...

According to the Farmington Police Department, multiple officers from the department were involved in a police shooting. A suspect was confronted and killed on scene. Police said the suspect’s identity is unknown and there are no other known threats at this time.

Two officers were shot — one from the Farmington Police Department and one from New Mexico State Police. Both are currently at the San Juan Regional Medical Center in stable condition.

Police said multiple civilians were shot — with at least three dead.

[Isgrimnur]

Pittsburgh synagogue gunman found guilty on all federal charges

The gunman who opened fire at a Pittsburgh synagogue in 2018, killing 11, was found guilty Friday on all 63 federal charges — some of which are punishable by death — for his role in the deadliest antisemitic attack in U.S. history.
...
He was found guilty on 11 counts of obstructing the exercise of religious beliefs resulting in death, a capital offense punishable by death. As a result, the trial will move into a penalty phase where the jury will decide whether to sentence him to death or life in prison.
...
Lawyers for Bowers admitted that he was responsible for the deadly attack, but had tried to spare his life as federal prosecutors are seeking the death penalty. Prosecutors had rejected Bowers’ offer to plead guilty in exchange for taking the death penalty off the table.

[Unagi]

I can still squeeze out (just) a drop of optimism that a hate-filled gun—empowered monster can still be found guilty in our historically foreword thinking world that now only looks backwards.

Remarkable, isn’t it. That I can squeeze out any optimism.

[Isgrimnur]

Colorado Club Q shooting: Attacker sentenced to life in prison after pleading guilty

As part of a plea deal, the attacker was sentenced to five consecutive life sentences without the possibility of parole, as well as 46 consecutive 48 year sentences for the attempted murders.

[malchior]

Florida's version of Stand Your Ground includes blind fire on your pool worker if they show up at weird times. Florida is a full on loony bin.

A Dunedin man will not face charges after he fired 30 rounds from his AR-15 rifle at his pool cleaner whom he mistook for an intruder earlier this month, Pinellas County Sheriff Bob Gualtieri announced on Monday.

Jana and Bradley Hocevar were watching a movie at their home at about 9 p.m. on June 15 when Jana Hocevar heard noise coming from their lanai, Gualtieri said at a news conference Monday morning. Jana Hocevar, 43, said she saw an unfamiliar man within feet of the sliding glass doors and called 911.

[Pyperkub]

Florida's version of Stand Your Ground includes blind fire on your pool worker if they show up at weird times. Florida is a full on loony bin.

A Dunedin man will not face charges after he fired 30 rounds from his AR-15 rifle at his pool cleaner whom he mistook for an intruder earlier this month, Pinellas County Sheriff Bob Gualtieri announced on Monday.

Jana and Bradley Hocevar were watching a movie at their home at about 9 p.m. on June 15 when Jana Hocevar heard noise coming from their lanai, Gualtieri said at a news conference Monday morning. Jana Hocevar, 43, said she saw an unfamiliar man within feet of the sliding glass doors and called 911.

Thank god the Hocevar's were lousy shots.

The 911 dispatcher on the phone and Jana Hocevar repeatedly pleaded with Bradley Hocevar to put down the rifle and stop firing. But 47 seconds after the first two rounds, Bradley Hocevar fired a few more rounds. Finally, about 25 seconds later, Bradley Hocevar unloaded his AR-15′s magazine — meaning he fired 30 rounds in about 90 seconds, Gualtieri said.

Polek sustained minor injuries from shrapnel and flying glass, but was not hit directly by the bullets.

[Alefroth]

I wonder if neighbors could sue for some kind of reckless endangerment.

[Zenn7]

Hope that pool boy gets hazard pay.

Harsh penalty for being late to work! "I said 9 AM, not PM!"

I'd suggest someone tell Trump to stop by there for a swim, but need a better shot for that to work.

Wonder if I'm close to what any of the late show peeps will say.

The level of stupidity here defies description. Not really a moment for poor attempts at levity, but needed a brief break from reality.

[Punisher]

I'm not condoning the shooting but I have to wonder why the pool boy was there at 9pm?
Was it normal or even close to his normal hours or was it WAY off?
Did he normally call before going or is his whole deal I'll get there when I get there?
Not enough details but it definitely sounds odd.

[Alefroth]

Wonder if I'm close to what any of the late show peeps will say.

Only if you send them your material.

[Freyland]

I'm not condoning the shooting but I have to wonder why the pool boy was there at 9pm?
Was it normal or even close to his normal hours or was it WAY off?
Did he normally call before going or is his whole deal I'll get there when I get there?
Not enough details but it definitely sounds odd.

Perhaps a tryst with the wife, and hubby had already been suspicious.

[Isgrimnur]

Dusk that day was 8:56pm.

[malchior]

It was clearly dark as the guy had to get his flashlight. That's still not a justification for this IMO. Or support for this nutball policy of the state.

It is apparently lawful in populated areas there to recklessly blind fire with relatively high power rounds because you heard some noise from your lanai. At this point we just might have enough evidence that the scared by shadows set might not represent a well-regulated militia.

[Punisher]

It was clearly dark as the guy had to get his flashlight. That's still not a justification for this IMO. Or support for this nutball policy of the state.

It is apparently lawful in populated areas there to recklessly blind fire with relatively high power rounds because you heard some noise from your lanai. At this point we just might have enough evidence that the scared by shadows set might not represent a well-regulated militia.

I think we need to settle somewhere between places like Florida and places like NJ/NY.
Not so loose that you can shoot willy nilly but not so stiff that it's your responsibility to let anyone attacking or stealing from you to have their way.

[malchior]

It was clearly dark as the guy had to get his flashlight. That's still not a justification for this IMO. Or support for this nutball policy of the state.

It is apparently lawful in populated areas there to recklessly blind fire with relatively high power rounds because you heard some noise from your lanai. At this point we just might have enough evidence that the scared by shadows set might not represent a well-regulated militia.

I think we need to settle somewhere between places like Florida and places like NJ/NY.
Not so loose that you can shoot willy nilly but not so stiff that it's your responsibility to let anyone attacking or stealing from you to have their way.

That is a false spectrum IMO. The last point doesn't really reflect what actually happens in NJ/NY. NJ/NY self-defense laws reflect what has worked for centuries with firm footing going back to common law. What often gets conflated is the more restrictive gun ownership policy there which we could argue is too tight in the northeast. However, there is an argument that having 2-3 times lower rates of gun deaths could indicate that is a wiser policy.

People often don't realize this and have been fed stories about exceptions instead of a reality that self-defense in NJ or NY doesn't mean people can just mug you or you have to helplessly watch as people invade your home. What it means is that you shouldn't kill someone unless your life is actually in danger. Florida and other "Stand Your Ground" states are more the law of the Wild West where anyone has a right to protect themselves as they see fit depending on how they feel at the moment. In the end, whoever survives a fight can often justify the outcome.

[Punisher]

It was clearly dark as the guy had to get his flashlight. That's still not a justification for this IMO. Or support for this nutball policy of the state.

It is apparently lawful in populated areas there to recklessly blind fire with relatively high power rounds because you heard some noise from your lanai. At this point we just might have enough evidence that the scared by shadows set might not represent a well-regulated militia.

I think we need to settle somewhere between places like Florida and places like NJ/NY.
Not so loose that you can shoot willy nilly but not so stiff that it's your responsibility to let anyone attacking or stealing from you to have their way.

That is a false spectrum IMO. The last point doesn't really reflect what actually happens in NJ/NY. NJ/NY self-defense laws reflect what has worked for centuries with firm footing going back to common law. What often gets conflated is the more restrictive gun ownership policy there which we could argue is too tight in the northeast. However, there is an argument that having 2-3 times lower rates of gun deaths could indicate that is a wiser policy.

People often don't realize this and have been fed stories about exceptions instead of a reality that self-defense in NJ or NY doesn't mean people can just mug you or you have to helplessly watch as people invade your home. What it means is that you shouldn't kill someone unless your life is actually in danger. Florida and other "Stand Your Ground" states are more the law of the Wild West where anyone has a right to protect themselves as they see fit depending on how they feel at the moment. In the end, whoever survives a fight can often justify the outcome.

But it kind of does. NJ expects you to do everything you can to retreat. It also becomes your burden to prove your life was in danger. I'm currently disabled. Someone doesn't need a gun or weapon to attack me and win. If someone wants to beat me up NJ will say thats not enough for me to use deadly force. If someone breaks into my home and starts robbing me and doesn't leave that's also not enough for NJ to approve deadly force.

[malchior]

But it kind of does. NJ expects you to do everything you can to retreat. It also becomes your burden to prove your life was in danger. I'm currently disabled. Someone doesn't need a gun or weapon to attack me and win.

I'm sorry about your disability but this could apply to children and women too in many cases. Protecting the vulnerable is an important factor for sure but just to reiterate NJ has had these self-defense laws and policies in place for literal centuries, we enjoy some of the lowest crime rates on the planet, and overall the laws seem to be well calibrated to the risk levels here.

If someone wants to beat me up NJ will say thats not enough for me to use deadly force.

There are plenty of other places to live if you want the option. About the only good thing about NJ is that citizens face a decreased chance (~66% less of a chance!) of being murdered over simple misunderstandings or simple violence versus the average in this nation.

If someone breaks into my home and starts robbing me and doesn't leave that's also not enough for NJ to approve deadly force.

In NJ - this is true to an extent. This isn't true in NY. In NY you can use deadly force if anyone is committing a crime in your home. In NJ, you have to show your life was in danger. In practice however, NJ residents are rarely prosecuted for self-defense crimes. What I'm saying is this is more a theoretical concern than a real one. As an aside, there is case law in NJ that is calibrated to the reasonableness and there is quite a lot of deference for disabled people. If someone is breaking into your home and you are disabled then your bar is much lower. In any case what I'm suggesting is that the reality is much different than the "mythology" that you'd hear. I don't have readily available evidence to show but I would highly suspect most of that comes from conservative voices in NJ who are exaggerating the risk.

[Punisher]

It's not completely theoretical.
About 15 years back or so an associate of mine had his house broken into by 2 people. There was a fight, he got hold of a bat and broke one of the intruders arms. He was charged with assault wirh a deadly weapon because they were unarmed. I don't remember the details but part of it was that he had a back door that he could have escaped from since nobody else was home at the time.
He was able to plea bargin to assault. I dont recall if it was a suspended sentence or time served (he couldn't make bail and this was before the current catch and release programs)
He lost his job because of it. It was retail but still.

Also, while my particular town isn't crime ridden, we do have criminals that come from the neighboring towns. Plus before I became disabled I had a job that took me all over for home IT service including to a few local towns that have a high crime rate. As an example I get various local news alerts every day. One town that's only about 4 towns away has shootings just about every weekend. I'm genuinely surprised when I don't get a shooting alert. Usually there are multiple along with other crimes like stabbings and whatnot. I knew a few EMTs in that town that told me they were constantly getting calls for gunshot and stab wounds.
I rode for the next town over to me. They had a few shootings a year. I never had those calls but I had plenty of stabbings.

For the record, despite my username I'm not looking to go all wild west on everyone that looks at me funny. While I do think a lot of Florida stories are justified I also think that a lot of them are crazy.
I personally think that if someone tries to harm you, your family, or your friends, even unarmed then they made their choice and should live or not with the consequences. Same goes if they break into your home while you are there.
Not everyone is an MMA fighter. Even before my disability I wasn't a fighter in general. It wouldn't take much for someone to take me down. I generally try to treat everyone with respect and politeness until they give me a reason not to. In my various jobs I've had to deal with all sorts including gang members, felons on parole and ex-cons. I never caused or had a problem with them.
BUT if I did have a problem it would have been nice at the time to have been able to defend myself.

[Punisher]

Also, I always assumed NY was WAY more strict then NJ.

[malchior]

It's not completely theoretical.
About 15 years back or so an associate of mine had his house broken into by 2 people. There was a fight, he got hold of a bat and broke one of the intruders arms. He was charged with assault wirh a deadly weapon because they were unarmed. I don't remember the details but part of it was that he had a back door that he could have escaped from since nobody else was home at the time.
He was able to plea bargin to assault. I dont recall if it was a suspended sentence or time served (he couldn't make bail and this was before the current catch and release programs)
He lost his job because of it. It was retail but still.

Fair enough but it's still exceedingly rare despite the anecdote. I agree in principle that you should be able to chase people off and that a baseball bat versus 2 intruders is fairly reasonable. But not knowing the facts perhaps the assault charge was the right outcome. I don't know but in the hypothetical sense it might not have been right. Still it's been this way for a long time and if it were a legitimate problem I think there'd be more than anecdotes to point out. Instead, we have a record of relative safety and less violence.

Also, while my particular town isn't crime ridden, we do have criminals that come from the neighboring towns. Plus before I became disabled I had a job that took me all over for home IT service including to a few local towns that have a high crime rate. As an example I get various local news alerts every day. One town that's only about 4 towns away has shootings just about every weekend. I'm genuinely surprised when I don't get a shooting alert. Usually there are multiple along with other crimes like stabbings and whatnot. I knew a few EMTs in that town that told me they were constantly getting calls for gunshot and stab wounds.
I rode for the next town over to me. They had a few shootings a year. I never had those calls but I had plenty of stabbings.

Sure but if you look at the stats we are still talking some of the lowest crime rates in the world despite being in the United States with a gun culture. That's sort of remarkable when you think about it.

For the record, despite my username I'm not looking to go all wild west on everyone that looks at me funny. While I do think a lot of Florida stories are justified I also think that a lot of them are crazy.
I personally think that if someone tries to harm you, your family, or your friends, even unarmed then they made their choice and should live or not with the consequences.

We'll just have to disagree.

Same goes if they break into your home while you are there.

I'm not down with death here in every case but I soften because home invasion brings much higher risks.

Not everyone is an MMA fighter. Even before my disability I wasn't a fighter in general. It wouldn't take much for someone to take me down. I generally try to treat everyone with respect and politeness until they give me a reason not to. In my various jobs I've had to deal with all sorts including gang members, felons on parole and ex-cons. I never caused or had a problem with them.
BUT if I did have a problem it would have been nice at the time to have been able to defend myself.

But that's the thing - limits doesn't mean you can't do anything. You seem to think that all options should be open to you which is literally the epitome of 'wild west' to me. Even then the wild west had more rules than we see in a Florida right now.

[Punisher]

Not gonna quote everything to keep thread tidier.
I will say that I agree with you about Florida. They need to rein in the laws a bit. You can still have stand your ground and castle doctrine but it seems like that means you can do whatever you want.
Like the pool guy. Sure he probably shouldn't have been there at that time but even if he was an intruder it sounds like he didn't do anything threatening or even try to enter the home.
Dial it back and make them have to enter the home or be actively BREAKING in. Not knocking, not ringing the door bell.

Also, yes you should be fearful for your life before shooting someone but that can't include people that happen to be walking towards you on the street. ( i think i recall similar scenarios recently)

As for NJ. Yep, we'll have to agree to disagree. Although I will say this. Yes mine was an anecdote. However it wasn't in the news or anything. I'm not even sure if it made it to the local media police blotter. So, knowing that I have to wonder how many other similar things happened that we just aren't aware of.

[Isgrimnur]

That's... disheartening. It also seems to fly in the face of what's happening here in Florida in the fallout of the Parkland shooting.

The former Broward County sheriff’s deputy whom President Donald Trump called a “coward” for his response to the tragedy at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School was arrested Tuesday and charged with multiple counts, including child neglect.

Scot Peterson, 56, was taken into custody after an administrative hearing at the sheriff’s headquarters. Following a 15-month investigation by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement Peterson was arrested on seven counts of child neglect, three counts of culpable negligence and one count of perjury.

Scot Peterson not guilty over Parkland school shooting response

Mr Peterson was found not guilty of 11 charges including felony child neglect, culpable negligence and perjury.

[Kurth]

That's... disheartening. It also seems to fly in the face of what's happening here in Florida in the fallout of the Parkland shooting.

The former Broward County sheriff’s deputy whom President Donald Trump called a “coward” for his response to the tragedy at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School was arrested Tuesday and charged with multiple counts, including child neglect.

Scot Peterson, 56, was taken into custody after an administrative hearing at the sheriff’s headquarters. Following a 15-month investigation by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement Peterson was arrested on seven counts of child neglect, three counts of culpable negligence and one count of perjury.

Scot Peterson not guilty over Parkland school shooting response

Mr Peterson was found not guilty of 11 charges including felony child neglect, culpable negligence and perjury.

What a shit show. The only word that comes to mind to accurately describe that prosecution is, "perverse."

We live in a society that insists on being armed to the teeth and resists even the most modest, reasonable restrictions on gun ownership, while insisting that more guns in the hands of "good" guys is the answer. Then, when one of those "good" guys flinches and comes up short in the moment when he's expected to face down a mass shooter, the response is to scapegoat him and try to send him to prison for 97 years.

What a fucking joke. But glad the jury apparently saw through it all.

[Isgrimnur]

Texas gunman in Walmart shooting gets 90 consecutive life sentences but may still face death penalty

A white gunman who killed 23 people in a racist attack on Hispanic shoppers at a Walmart in a Texas border city was sentenced Friday to 90 consecutive life sentences but could still face more punishment, including the death penalty.

Patrick Crusius, 24, pleaded guilty earlier this year to nearly 50 federal hate crime charges in the 2019 mass shooting in El Paso, making it one of the U.S. government’s largest hate crime cases.
...
Crusius pleaded guilty in February after federal prosecutors took the death penalty off the table. But Texas prosecutors have said they will try to put Crusius on death row when he stands trial in state court. That trial date has not yet been set.