Shootings

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Octavious
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Re: Shootings

Post by Octavious »

I really don't like this country. I'd leave if it weren't for my daughter. I'd like to see his martial arts against an AR 15.


He said: "When something like this happens, what is your plan? What do you do? I have a personal security plan. I train in mixed martial arts."

Hannity also said he was a "big believer in the Second Amendment" but his belief came "with the prayer that I would never have to use it."
Last edited by Octavious on Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

$iljanus wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:05 am There will be the usual call for better mental health services which is always a good thing. But perhaps while people are undergoing treatment or evaluation, maybe we should also keep things like guns out of their reach? I feel like we’ve had this conversation before…
In Illinois he'd have lost his FOID and CCW (assuming he had them) and local LEO would be tasked with collecting his firearms. It's not perfect, they often fail to do so, but at least there's a law.
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Re: Shootings

Post by $iljanus »

Octavious wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:05 am I really don't like this country. I'd leave if it weren't for my daughter.


He said: "When something like this happens, what is your plan? What do you do? I have a personal security plan. I train in mixed martial arts."

Hannity also said he was a "big believer in the Second Amendment" but his belief came "with the prayer that I would never have to use it."
“I train in mixed martial arts”? Kinda hard to get your ki on if you have a 5.56 round in your chest. :roll:
Black lives matter!

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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

$iljanus wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:09 am
Octavious wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:05 am I really don't like this country. I'd leave if it weren't for my daughter.


He said: "When something like this happens, what is your plan? What do you do? I have a personal security plan. I train in mixed martial arts."

Hannity also said he was a "big believer in the Second Amendment" but his belief came "with the prayer that I would never have to use it."
“I train in mixed martial arts”? Kinda hard to get your ki on if you have a 5.56 round in your chest. :roll:
It's a dog whistle for action clubs.
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Re: Shootings

Post by $iljanus »

As the song goes, “Meet the new boss…same as the old boss!”
House Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.) told reporters Thursday, “This is a dark time in America. We have a lot of problems. And we’re really, really hopeful and prayerful.”
“Prayer is appropriate in a time like this, that the evil can and this senseless violence can stop,” he said. “So, that’s the statement this morning on behalf of the entire House of Representatives. Everyone wants this to end, and I’ll leave it there.”
Johnson walked away as reporters shouted questions, including whether Congress should take action to prevent gun violence.
From a live update in the WaPo.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... DTGYP4TBHU
Black lives matter!

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Re: Shootings

Post by Kraken »

Thoughts and prayers are the only gun control action we'll get out of this Congress.
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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Maine will pass some laws to burn on the altar of the Supreme Court.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Smoove_B »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:50 am Maine will pass some laws to burn on the altar of the Supreme Court.
Probably not.
Some recent attempts by gun control advocates to tighten the state’s gun laws have failed. Proposals to require background checks for private gun sales and create a 72-hour waiting period for gun purchases failed earlier this year. Proposals that focused on school security and banning bump stocks failed in 2019.

State residents have also voted down some attempts to tighten gun laws in Maine. A proposal to require background checks for gun sales failed in a 2016 public vote.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: Shootings

Post by Octavious »

Oh man if I can't have my guns this second the world is going to end! :P
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Re: Shootings

Post by Pyperkub »

$iljanus wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:45 am As the song goes, “Meet the new boss…same as the old boss!”
House Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.) told reporters Thursday, “This is a dark time in America. We have a lot of problems. And we’re really, really hopeful and prayerful.”
“Prayer is appropriate in a time like this, that the evil can and this senseless violence can stop,” he said. “So, that’s the statement this morning on behalf of the entire House of Representatives. Everyone wants this to end, and I’ll leave it there.”
Johnson walked away as reporters shouted questions, including whether Congress should take action to prevent gun violence.
From a live update in the WaPo.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... DTGYP4TBHU
And make no mistake, while this is a Trump-inspired pick, the GOP did this on their own, and would be doing so without Trump.

See the data. The acceptance of violence as a solution to problems is trending closer and closer to a majority of Republicans.
To view a PDF of findings presented October 25, 2023, click here: 2023 American Values Survey. To view the webinar via YouTube, click here: What do Americans think about the health of our democracy and the upcoming presidential election?.
Introduction

In this divided era of American politics, the nation turns its eyes toward an unprecedented presidential election, with two of the oldest leading candidates in history — one of whom is facing federal and state indictments related to efforts to overturn the previous election. The 14th Annual American Values survey, conducted by PRRI in partnership with the Brookings Institution, examines Americans’ attitudes about the leading candidates for president, potential support for third-party candidates, and the issues that define these partisan and cultural fault lines. The survey illuminates Americans’ concerns about the overall direction of the country, the state of the economy and inflation, public education, social connectedness, and the broader health of our democracy. Additionally, the survey highlights attitudes about abortion, gender and LGBTQ issues, immigration, foreign policy, Christian nationalism, and support for QAnon, among other issues.
State of the Country
The Right or Wrong Direction?

More than three-fourths of Americans (77%) believe that the country is going in the wrong direction, compared with only 22% who believe the country is going in the right direction. The vast majority of Republicans (90%) and independents (81%) say the country is going in the wrong direction, compared with 59% of Democrats.

Most Americans, regardless of religious tradition, see the country as going in the wrong direction: 92% of white evangelical Protestants, 82% of white mainline/non-evangelical Protestants, 79% of white Catholics, 75% of religiously unaffiliated Americans, and two-thirds of Black Protestants (68%), non-Christian religious Americans (66%), and Hispanic Catholics (64%).

There are no significant differences with respect to views on the direction of the country by gender, race, generation, education, region, or whether respondents live in rural, suburban, and urban areas.
Change Since the 1950s

Fewer Americans believe that American culture and way of life has mostly changed for the better (44%) than changed for the worse (55%) since the 1950s. Republicans (73%) are more likely than independents (57%) and Democrats (34%) to believe it has mostly changed for the worse.

Nearly nine in ten Americans who most trust far-right news (89%), seven in ten Americans who most trust Fox news (71%), and nearly six in ten Americans who do not watch TV news (58%) believe American culture and way of life have mostly changed for the worse. Under half of Americans who most trust mainstream news (45%) believe the same.

Majorities of white Christians — including white evangelical Protestants (77%), white mainline/non-evangelical Protestants (60%), and white Catholics (57%) — believe American culture and way of life has mostly changed for the worse. Hispanic Catholics, Black Protestants, and non-Christian religious Americans are more divided. By contrast, religiously unaffiliated Americans are less likely to say American culture and way of life has changed for the worse (43%) than for the better (57%).

While younger Americans are not optimistic, they remain less likely than older Americans to believe that American culture and way of life have mostly changed for the worse: 49% of Generation Z and millennials, 58% of Generation X, 60% of baby boomers, and 67% of the Silent Generation.

The majority of white (58%) and Hispanic Americans (54%), and nearly half of Black Americans (47%), agree that America’s culture and way of life have mostly changed for the worse.

Americans without a college education are more likely than college-educated Americans to believe that America has changed for the worse, including 61% with some college and 60% with a high school education or less, compared with 46% of college graduates and 43% of postgraduates.

Americans in urban areas are divided on this question (50% better vs. 49% worse), compared with majorities of those who live in suburban (55%) and rural (67%) areas who believe that America’s culture and way of life have changed for the worse.

American’s Best Days are Behind Us

The country is more divided about the possibility of better days in the future. A slim majority of Americans (52%) agree that “America’s best days are now behind us,” while 43% disagree. Republicans (67%) and independents (55%) are much more likely than Democrats (35%) to believe that America’s best days are behind us. A majority of Democrats (61%) disagree.

More than seven in ten Americans who trust far-right news (71%) and about six in ten Fox News viewers (60%) and those who do not watch TV news (55%) believe the best days are behind us. Americans who trust mainstream news are divided (47% agree, 50% disagree).

White Americans (55%), Hispanic Americans (51%), and Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders (AAPI) (50%) similarly agree that America’s best days are behind us, compared with 39% of Black Americans. Further, majorities of all generations, except for Gen Z (48%), believe that America’s best days are behind us, including 54% of millennials and the Silent Generation, 53% of Gen X, and 51% of baby boomers.

The belief that America’s best days are behind us decreases with higher levels of education: 56% of Americans with a high school education or less, 57% of Americans with only some college education, 49% of college graduates, and just 36% of postgraduates believe that America’s best days are behind us.

Rural Americans (64%) are also more likely than Americans in suburban (51%) or urban areas (47%) to believe that America’s best days are now behind us.
Support for Authoritarianism as a Response to the Direction of the Country

Just under four in ten Americans (38%) agree with the statement, “Because things have gotten so far off track in this country, we need a leader who is willing to break some rules if that’s what it takes to set things right,” while 59% disagree.

About half of Republicans (48%) agree with the need for a leader who is willing to break some rules, compared with four in ten independents (38%) and three in ten Democrats (29%). Majorities of Americans who most trust Fox News (53%) or far-right outlets (52%) agree that we need a leader who breaks the rules, compared with smaller shares of those who do not trust TV news (40%), or who most trust mainstream news (32%). Republicans with favorable views of former President Donald Trump are notably more likely than those with unfavorable views of Trump to agree with the need for a leader who is willing to break some rules (54% vs. 32%).

A slim majority of Hispanic Catholics (51%) agree with this statement, along with nearly four in ten religiously unaffiliated Americans (38%), white evangelical Protestants (37%), white mainline/non-evangelical Protestants (37%), non-Christians (37%), white Catholics (36%), and Black Protestants (35%). White Americans who attend religious services weekly or more (29%) are less likely than those who attend monthly or a few times a year (39%) or those who seldom or never attend services (37%) to agree with the need for a leader who is willing to break some rules.

Americans who believe that the country has changed for the worse since the 1950s are substantially more likely than those who say that it has changed for the better to agree with the need for a leader who is willing to break some rules (43% vs. 31%).

Support for Political Violence as a Response to the Direction of the Country

Disturbingly, support for political violence has increased over the last two years. Today, nearly a quarter of Americans (23%) agree that “because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country,” up from 15% in 2021. PRRI has asked this question in eight separate surveys since March 2021. This is the first time support for political violence has peaked above 20%.

One-third of Republicans (33%) today believe that true American patriots may have to resort to violence to save the country, compared with 22% of independents and 13% of Democrats. Those percentages have increased since 2021, when 28% of Republicans and 7% of Democrats held this belief. Republicans who have favorable views of Trump (41%) are nearly three times as likely as Republicans who have unfavorable views of Trump (16%) to agree that true American patriots may have to resort to violence to save the country.
but the GOP'ers who are really buying what Trump is selling? Yeah...
Americans who believe that the 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump are more than three times as likely as those who do not believe that the election was stolen from Trump — 46% to 13%, respectively — to agree that true American patriots may have to resort to violence to save the country.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Kraken wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:48 am Thoughts and prayers are the only gun control action we'll get out of this Congress.
Wow, you're a real cynic, aren't you?! Just glossed over the HOPE part completely: "we’re really, really hopeful"
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Re: Shootings

Post by Kraken »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:33 am
Kraken wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:48 am Thoughts and prayers are the only gun control action we'll get out of this Congress.
Wow, you're a real cynic, aren't you?! Just glossed over the HOPE part completely: "we’re really, really hopeful"
Actually, I was being generous with "thoughts".
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Re: Shootings

Post by Alefroth »

em2nought wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:34 am
Alefroth wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 1:57 am
em2nought wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 11:59 pm A Subaru? Hmm. :think: :lol:
True colors.
You've got me, I like dark humor. Particularly if it's the kind that can get you cancelled in this new normal.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Octavious »

If you can't laugh at mass shootings what can you laugh at?
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Re: Shootings

Post by Pyperkub »

Kraken wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 1:05 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:33 am
Kraken wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:48 am Thoughts and prayers are the only gun control action we'll get out of this Congress.
Wow, you're a real cynic, aren't you?! Just glossed over the HOPE part completely: "we’re really, really hopeful"
Actually, I was being generous with "thoughts".
Yeah, under Johnson and this Supreme Court, what we are likely to get will be MORE encouragement/enablement of gun violence, not less. And, given the presumptive GOP Presidential candidate, the amount of people who believe violence is a solution to problems will continue to grow.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Jared Golden (D, Maine 2nd district) is on a press conference calling for a federal AWB. He said in the past he has opposed but is "taking responsibility" and changing his stance. I imagine his constituents are probably doing the same.

Does it go anywhere? Probably not at the federal level. But may be a change for the state.
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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Golden:
"Out of fear of this dangerous world we live in, and in order to protect my own daughter and wife in our home and in our community, because of a false confidence that our community was above this, and that we could be in full control, among many other misjudgments, I have opposed efforts to ban deadly weapons of war like the assault rifle used to carry out this crime. The time has now come for me to take responsibility for this failure, which is why I now call on the United States to ban assault rifles like the one used by the sick perpetrator of this mass killing in my hometown of Lewiston, Maine."

Transcribed by me, forgive punctuation.
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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Now they asked Susan Collins (at the same press conference) if she would do the same. She is hemming and hawing. "Cosmetic features" argument. "Mental health clinics."
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Re: Shootings

Post by Kraken »

ME is a gun-happy state with lots of hunters and even more wilderness. Unlike VT, where the same conditions apply and regulation is also loose, ME doesn't have a liberal streak (although it's not hopelessly conservative either). I'll be pleasantly surprised if they can reform their laws in a meaningful way.
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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Collins ends on a strong note:
"Maine, I would point out, has one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the country, and has a long heritage of responsible gun ownership. It has also had a very low rate of violence. What makes this crime so heinous is in a typical year, Maine might have 22 murders and last night we almost approached the number for the entire year." [no more questions]
It's heinous because numbers!
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Re: Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur »

It's heinous because a man hospitalized for hearing voices and making threats against a federal institution was released back into society and retained access to his firearms.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Holman »

em2nought wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 11:59 pm A Subaru? Hmm. :think: :lol:


(This is apparently a list of tweets the shooter "liked".)
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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

CNN is showing police around the suspect's house, not clear if anyone is inside but they're giving instructions for someone to come out. I'd be shocked if he just went home. I have the uneasy feeling he is long gone.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Alefroth »

Dead or escaped?
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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Alefroth wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:56 pm Dead or escaped?
Whichever he wanted. Either he popped himself or he escaped.

Again, I hope he's in there but the place has been under surveillance since right after the shootings and they executed a warrant on it. How could he be in there? And no, not Coneys.
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Re: Shootings

Post by malchior »

He strikes me as the type who has an underground bomb shelter deep in the woods.
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Re: Shootings

Post by waitingtoconnect »

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 6:38 pm It's heinous because a man hospitalized for hearing voices and making threats against a federal institution was released back into society and retained access to his firearms.
Its in the constitution - apparently...

Its insane you can be unable to handle your own financial affairs or make decisions regarding your mental or physical health (e.g. being under a conservatorship) yet you can still go out and buy a gun.
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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

waitingtoconnect wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 9:06 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 6:38 pm It's heinous because a man hospitalized for hearing voices and making threats against a federal institution was released back into society and retained access to his firearms.
Its in the constitution - apparently...

Its insane you can be unable to handle your own financial affairs or make decisions regarding your mental or physical health (e.g. being under a conservatorship) yet you can still go out and buy a gun.
Technically he wouldn't be allowed to buy a gun. The 4473 asks if you have been institutionalized. Of course for person-to-person sales there is no 4473 at the federal level. And there are no federal rules for owning a gun after being committed.
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Re: Shootings

Post by waitingtoconnect »

You are 100% correct of course, but in my opinion the lobbyist provided loopholes like the one you describe that make a mockery of what little restrictions we do have.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Kraken »

A red flag law MIGHT have prevented this case, but ME's yellow flag law is more like a white flag.
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Re: Shootings

Post by em2nought »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:23 pm CNN is showing police around the suspect's house, not clear if anyone is inside but they're giving instructions for someone to come out. I'd be shocked if he just went home. I have the uneasy feeling he is long gone.
It was Maine, maybe he went to Zihuatanejo like Otis.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Smoove_B »

Still under a shelter-in-place order (this was reported earlier this morning, but I didn't see it was lifted yet)


More than 100,000 Mainers remain locked down again today as police search for a killer without telling the public much of anything about what they're doing or what they know. Everybody here appreciates their effort and courage, but people also want more information.
The irony of losing your freedom to move around so that someone else can enjoy the freedom of gun ownership.
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Re: Shootings

Post by malchior »

Side note this complaint is really valid. Maine is making some classic communication mistakes. Maine's lack of experience dealing with an incident is haunting them a little. At least that is what I see from someone who has been inside the room with leadership that wasn't drilled in how to communicate incident/crisis status. They don't know what to do. For instance, 3 deaf people were reportedly killed but they held a press conference with no deaf signer *or* captioning. They then added one and the tv stations framed them out of the picture! :cry:

Obviously they mostly will have the Internet and can get information but it just sends a message that lots of folks involved aren't thinking through what they are doing. Hopefully that isn't what is happening at the law enforcement layer.
Last edited by malchior on Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Smoove_B »

Yes, that was the context I'd seen it reported - the EM perspective and how it's failing. It felt wrong (to me) to add that in this thread, but it does fit into a larger picture of the loss of public trust for public/governmental services.
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Re: Shootings

Post by malchior »

FWIW I think it's important to address because we are a nation with lots of shooting crises and we obviously have no interest in preventing them. And then we don't handle them well beyond hunting down the threat? Not great. Typically this would be left for after action analysis but when they are falling down DURING THE INCIDENT and it'll be protracted it has to be called out and hopefully fixed on the fly.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Smoove_B »

Yeah, that's fair. I'm sure you're not surprised to learn that emergency management services are financially under attack in various communities and of course communication and coordination are critical elements that they provide. Or you can just rely on the police to do everything and as we know they're really good with community communications and interactions.

I'm sure smarter people are already writing up a detailed analysis as to how it's all connected, but it really is amazing to me how the same thing keeps happening and nothing changes.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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YellowKing
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Re: Shootings

Post by YellowKing »

I guess this incident definitely disproved the "good guy with a gun" theory of stopping mass shootings. Not that anyone cares.
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TheMix
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Re: Shootings

Post by TheMix »

Just found out that the husband for one of my co-workers (not an immediate team member, but works on a team I support) was one of the victims. :(

Black Lives Matter

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malchior
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Re: Shootings

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:10 pm Yeah, that's fair. I'm sure you're not surprised to learn that emergency management services are financially under attack in various communities and of course communication and coordination are critical elements that they provide. Or you can just rely on the police to do everything and as we know they're really good with community communications and interactions.

I'm sure smarter people are already writing up a detailed analysis as to how it's all connected, but it really is amazing to me how the same thing keeps happening and nothing changes.
Right. What's worse is this isn't that hard to prepare for. Do a wargame or tabletop every 6-12 months. A couple of hours here and there with key stakeholders is not a lot to ask but whatever. We'll just keep doing it live!
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Smoove_B
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Re: Shootings

Post by Smoove_B »

I used to do tabletop exercises annually - true story, one was scheduled for 9/12/2001 related to a weather-related emergency response. It was...rescheduled.

I'd have to check, but I don't think I've ever seen or know of a mass shooter scenario run through a table top like other OEM events, at least in our area. They probably should be. It still astounds me that most K-12 students have more training and experience with these events than people born before 2000.

America.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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