Shootings

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Blackhawk
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Re: Shootings

Post by Blackhawk »

Alefroth wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 12:04 am I don't think they are unaware of the carnage.
There is a difference between statistically aware and viscerally aware.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Alefroth »

I'm not so sure they aren't basically the latter.

Also, I really don't think it would much matter. Is showing people what takes place inside a slaughterhouse an effective tactic in getting them to give up meat? I don't think it is.

They'll think it's awful then compartmentalize it.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Blackhawk »

I think where we disagree is in the nature of 'them.' I don't think 'them' are a homogeneous group. The majority of Americans already want more gun control than there is. Of those that don't, a portion know, and don't care. And a portion don't care about guns so much as they repeat the lines they've heard. Something like this article could sway some. Not all, not even a lot. But some. A small some. Every major incident sways a small some. Enough and those turning against a zero-responsibility 2A could reach critical mass.

Or maybe it won't. But every potential scratch made is worth clicking a share button. I could help, and it couldn't hurt.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Alefroth »

I was only speaking about the group VR referred to, 'anti gun control politicians'.

I'm in favor of showing the scenes of the massacres far and wide. I just don't think it'll have much effect on the people it really needs to.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Blackhawk »

Ah, ok. I interpreted VRs post to be talking about both (the politicians and the public.)

Yeah, the politicians know. They may even care. But they get paid to keep it to themselves and keep the waves down to ripples.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Unagi »

Alefroth wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:01 am I was only speaking about the group VR referred to, 'anti gun control politicians'.

I'm in favor of showing the scenes of the massacres far and wide. I just don't think it'll have much effect on the people it really needs to.
I'll only say that it may help. And here is why: If a group of horrible photos are shared with the public in regard to a particular shooting, the politicians who are in a position to act will be looking at people who have all seen the same exact images. Not just share some mental imagery of 'horror', but the same actual puddles of blood at the foot of a pew, and the same exact pile of body bags laid out in a playschool's hallway.

Images can have strong effects on movements and drive a unity of thought. They certainly don't solve the problem - but that is just the whole "perfect is the enemy of good" argument.

I think of images like the Vietnam 'napalm girl', or the 'Tank Man' from Tiananmen Square. Pictures can provide a fast way to get people into a shared experience, and it's harder for the "anti-gun control politician" to ignore that. IMO.
We did not shy against sharing with the world the images of the Twin Towers being attacked, and Israel was very smart to make sure the images of the Hamas attack did not go unseen - pictures really are worth a thousand words, and I think they can actually have powers that words sometimes don't.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Pyperkub »

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:07 am Ah, ok. I interpreted VRs post to be talking about both (the politicians and the public.)

Yeah, the politicians know. They may even care. But they get paid to keep it to themselves and keep the waves down to ripples.
Eh, I don't think they "know". How many times do you think Ted Cruz or Tommy Tuberville has walked through one of these crime scenes? Even those who do "visit" generally don't see this in person, but rather just talk with the police and give a speech (e.g. Greg Abbott).

Think of most of the House GOP. Their staff may get letters and complaints, but it gets handled (and most of those politicians are paid to look away from a LOT of things).
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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

It doesn't matter. Even if it horrifies them, they'll just double down on how important it is for a good guy with a gun be properly armed to stop it. They're so far down the NRA's ass that they can't think any differently.

That's not to say the images shouldn't be released as thry may still shock some sense into some of the less indoctrinated
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Re: Shootings

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Pyperkub wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 12:52 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:07 am Ah, ok. I interpreted VRs post to be talking about both (the politicians and the public.)

Yeah, the politicians know. They may even care. But they get paid to keep it to themselves and keep the waves down to ripples.
Eh, I don't think they "know". How many times do you think Ted Cruz or Tommy Tuberville has walked through one of these crime scenes? Even those who do "visit" generally don't see this in person, but rather just talk with the police and give a speech (e.g. Greg Abbott).

Think of most of the House GOP. Their staff may get letters and complaints, but it gets handled (and most of those politicians are paid to look away from a LOT of things).
Some likely know, some likely do not. The second half of that quote, though, is me saying it's pretty much irrelevant one way or another.
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Re: Shootings

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I have to imagine that this country would have reacted more to the news of twenty 6/7 year-olds shot dead in Sandy Hook if they had seen the actual images. I know I couldn't look at that. There is no way I could. And (so) I don't go so far as to say that they should have shown those images, but I will only say that if everyone in America were forced to look upon them, it would (IMO) very likely have a pretty big impact.
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Re: Shootings

Post by YellowKing »

You've got to get the public outraged, not the politicians. The only thing they care about is their job. Enough public wrath that they feel their job is in jeopardy, and then you'll start to see change.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Pyperkub »

YellowKing wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 1:01 pm You've got to get the public outraged, not the politicians. The only thing they care about is their job. Enough public wrath that they feel their job is in jeopardy, and then you'll start to see change.
And that is EXACTLY why there have been actual LAWS passed to prevent the dissemination of the photos. This is one of the lessons learned from Vietnam - don't allow photos of the bodybags, etc. or the politicians voting for war and bombings, etc might be pressured by people other than big donors...
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

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Re: Shootings

Post by Unagi »

+1
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Re: Shootings

Post by Blackhawk »

FWIW (for those who avoided it), the images in that article were awful, but they were still fairly sanitized compared to what was at the scene. Only one image that I recall actually showed bodies (which were in the distance, and weren't children.) But they came as close as to that as they could get away with.
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Re: Shootings

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Blackhawk wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 1:56 pm FWIW (for those who avoided it), the images in that article were awful, but they were still fairly sanitized compared to what was at the scene. Only one image that I recall actually showed bodies (which were in the distance, and weren't children.) But they came as close as to that as they could get away with.
I will add that there are some photos with massive blood stains/pooling more graphic than the spoilered images I posted, and in some ways they are very disturbing. Also, that distance shot of the LV Concert bodies gets more and more disturbing the more I think about it - the photos can and will get into your head)
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Re: Shootings

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No question. They got as close to the full scenes as they could get away with. It's not pleasant. There were a few that bothered me (and I've seen enough in real life that even shots that show everything rarely phase me.) I just wanted the hesitant to know that they're not going to be seeing shot-up children - just the evidence that it happened.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:55 pm They need to show more of those and keep sending pictures like those to anti gun control politicians to show them the actual cost of having freedom to own guns.
Concur
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Re: Shootings

Post by Alefroth »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:44 pm
Victoria Raverna wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:55 pm They need to show more of those and keep sending pictures like those to anti gun control politicians to show them the actual cost of having freedom to own guns.
Concur
Will you send any pictures to anti gun control politicians?
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Re: Shootings

Post by waitingtoconnect »

Unagi wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 12:59 pm I have to imagine that this country would have reacted more to the news of twenty 6/7 year-olds shot dead in Sandy Hook if they had seen the actual images. I know I couldn't look at that. There is no way I could. And (so) I don't go so far as to say that they should have shown those images, but I will only say that if everyone in America were forced to look upon them, it would (IMO) very likely have a pretty big impact.
The issue is the 10-15% of people who don’t want change override the 85-90% of us who do.
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Re: Shootings

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It isn't the people. It's the firearms industry and organizations via the politicians.
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Re: Shootings

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waitingtoconnect wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:44 pm
Unagi wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 12:59 pm I have to imagine that this country would have reacted more to the news of twenty 6/7 year-olds shot dead in Sandy Hook if they had seen the actual images. I know I couldn't look at that. There is no way I could. And (so) I don't go so far as to say that they should have shown those images, but I will only say that if everyone in America were forced to look upon them, it would (IMO) very likely have a pretty big impact.
The issue is the 10-15% of people who don’t want change override the 85-90% of us who do.
Honestly. That percentage seems high. If it were true wouldn't the law have changed already or even had the 2a repealed?
If 85 %of the people wanted simething done they would have voted to put the people that they want into office to do things that they wanted.
If I'm wrong, please explain slowly why.
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Re: Shootings

Post by malchior »

Punisher wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 4:15 am
waitingtoconnect wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:44 pm
Unagi wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 12:59 pm I have to imagine that this country would have reacted more to the news of twenty 6/7 year-olds shot dead in Sandy Hook if they had seen the actual images. I know I couldn't look at that. There is no way I could. And (so) I don't go so far as to say that they should have shown those images, but I will only say that if everyone in America were forced to look upon them, it would (IMO) very likely have a pretty big impact.
The issue is the 10-15% of people who don’t want change override the 85-90% of us who do.
Honestly. That percentage seems high. If it were true wouldn't the law have changed already or even had the 2a repealed?
If 85 %of the people wanted simething done they would have voted to put the people that they want into office to do things that they wanted.
If I'm wrong, please explain slowly why.
Because the United States is only loosely a democracy. It is more accurately a plutocratic Republican state. The preferences of the powerful and wealthy override almost every issue where there is policy disagreement including this one. The wealthy don't get shot in movie theaters and classrooms. They however profit from gun sales both domestically and across the world.
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Re: Shootings

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malchior wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:07 am Because the United States is only loosely a democracy. It is more accurately a plutocratic Republican state. The preferences of the powerful and wealthy override almost every issue where there is policy disagreement including this one. The wealthy don't get shot in movie theaters and classrooms. They however profit from gun sales both domestically and across the world.
They're fine either way. They have armed security and our police forces are tasked with protecting their property.

Expect the tide to turn if/when peole stop going to movie theaters, bars, concerts, etc, because of the threat of a mass shooting. If it hits consumer spending, then it becomes a priority.
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Re: Shootings

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UNLV
Terrified students and professors cowered in classrooms and dorms as a gunman roamed the floors of a University of Nevada, Las Vegas building, killing three people and critically wounding a fourth before dying in a shootout with police.

The gunman in Wednesday’s shooting was a professor who had unsuccessfully sought a job at the school, a law enforcement official with direct knowledge of the investigation told The Associated Press. He previously worked at East Carolina University in North Carolina, said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they weren’t authorized to release the information publicly.

Another law enforcement official identified the suspect as Anthony Polito, 67.
...
The gunman opened fire about 11:45 a.m. on the fourth floor of the building that houses UNLV’s Lee Business School and then went to several other floors before he was killed in a shootout with two university police detectives outside the building, UNLV Police Chief Adam Garcia said.
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Re: Shootings

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It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Shootings

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UNLV gunman sent letters to university personnel across the country before shootings, sheriff says
Polito ... visited a post office in Henderson and mailed 22 letters to various university personnel across the country with no return address, according to Las Vegas Sheriff Kevin McMahill.

At least one contained a white, powdery substance, he said at a Thursday news conference.
...
[His] online profile paints a picture of a man fascinated by Vegas, puzzles and conspiracy theories.
...
The Clark County Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiner identified two of the victims as ChaJan Chang, known as “Jerry,” a 64-year-old professor from Henderson, Nevada; and Patricia Navarro Velez, a 39-year-old assistant professor from Las Vegas.

The manner of death for both is classified as homicide. The third victim has been identified and the office is working to identify their next of kin.
...
His personal website included ... ordinary topics like “Travel” and “Shopping,” one section was devoted to “Powerful Organizations Bent on Global Domination!”

It included links to common conspiracy theory fodder like Freemasonry, the Trilateral Commission and “The Rothchild (sic) Family.” George Soros, a common target for antisemitic conspiracy theories, is listed as one of the “Great Minds of the Twentieth Century,” alongside Albert Einstein and others.

An ECU spokesperson told CNN Thursday Polito worked at their college of business from 2001 to 2017, holding the position of tenured associate professor when he resigned.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur »

Michigan school shooter sentenced to life in prison without parole
Teenager Ethan Crumbley was sentenced to life in prison without parole Friday for gunning down four classmates and wounding seven other people at Michigan’s Oxford High School in 2021.
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Re: Shootings

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Police chief says at least 15 people are dead after a mass shooting at a Prague university
Police and the Czech Republic’s interior ministry earlier said the suspect was dead. He has not been named publicly.

Officers sealed off Jan Palach Square and evacuated the philosophy department building of Charles University, which is where the shooting took place.

They are still searching the area, including the building’s balconies, for possible explosives.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Skinypupy »

Well, we just had our American right of passage, running in terror inside a mall after hearing (what we thought were) gunshots.

Mine and brother’s families had just finished walking through the Christmas ice sculpture exhibit at Opryland. We walked to the mall next door to grab some dinner before checking out the rest of the lights display at the hotel.

Walking towards the food court, we heard a huge crashing noise. It didn’t sound like gunshots, so we didn’t think anything of it…until we saw everyone running towards us. We moved quickly to grab the kids and simply run like hell, along with everyone else. I had a deathgrip on the back of Wonder Twin B’s hoodie as he just screamed “what’s going on?!?” over and over. Mrs Skinypupy grabbed the other twin and followed.

We ran towards a Forever 21 that we thought headed outside, but brother’s family ran the other way. We screamed “get outside” then realized Little B 13.8 had run into the store but wasn’t with us. We frantically ran towards the back of the store, watching several people barricading themselves into the dressing rooms by dragging a big display rack in front of the entry. Saw Little B out the corner of my eye, shouted for her to come with us, and slammed the alarmed security exit to get outside and just kept running. By the time we stopped, the kids were all in tears as the first police showed up sirens howling.

We found out later that there wasn’t an active shooter, but rather some teens who got into a fight and knocked over some tables and chairs, and people mistook it for gunfire. We only heard the noise and saw everyone running and did the same. Thankfully that’s all it was, but I’ll be honest, it was fucking terrifying.



Two thoughts:
1. The whole “good guy with a gun” who could play Rambo and take down an active shooter now seems even more ridiculous. We had ZERO idea who was the good guy, who was the bad guy, or even what the hell had happened. All we heard was a loud noise and saw everyone running. If I had seen someone carrying a gun as we ran, I would 100% have assumed they were the active shooter. It was simply chaos with people running in every direction. Hearing the wanna-be GI Joes say “I would have taken them out” is such nonsense.

2. It pisses me off that we have to live like this. My poor kids were terrified (and still are, a couple hours later), running away in sheer horror from something unknown.

Fuck everyone who simply shrugs and says it’s the price we have to pay. Bullshit.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Unagi »

That sounds absolutely terrifying and I agree also that it is not the world we need to live in.

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Re: Shootings

Post by YellowKing »

Skinypupy wrote:Thankfully that’s all it was, but I’ll be honest, it was fucking terrifying.
I had something similar happen to me a few years ago at a haunt event at Carowinds.

We were walking towards the back of the park when all of a sudden we see security run past us. We could vaguely hear some shouting and commotion, so one of my friends stood on top of a short brick wall to get a better view. She looks for a second and then goes, "Oh my God, run."

About that time, I see dozens of people running in our direction screaming. I mean just a wall of people coming right at us. Naturally we took off running as well, both out of fear and also to avoid getting trampled. All I could think was "if this many people are running, someone has a gun." I immediately went into pure flight mode, trying to figure out if I should jump a fence, try to get into a building, or what to do.

We finally got far away enough from the masses that we were able to stop and realize we weren't in any immediate danger. Shortly thereafter the announcement came that the park was closing early and security got everybody out of the gates, where at least half a dozen police cars were pulling into the parking lot.

I found out later after talking to some people that there was never a gun. A big fight just broke out between a bunch of teenagers, which started a crowd panic.

That's the first time I had ever experienced mass panic, and it was definitely terrifying.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Skinypupy »

YellowKing wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2023 12:27 am That's the first time I had ever experienced mass panic, and it was definitely terrifying.
Same, and it was truly scary. Not sure I’ve had a pure panic adrenaline rush like that since, well, ever.

The other scary thing is just how fast the misinformation spreads. By the time we got home (took about 25 minutes from the time we left the mall parking lot), people were “confirming” that it was a Jewish gunman, a Palestinian gunman, a MAGA gunman, that 15 people were killed, 20 people were killed, that the gunman was killed, that the shooter was still at large, and everything in between. All this nonsense had all been viewed and shared hundreds or thousands of times by the usual blue check suspects.

We all inherently know this happens, but it hits quite different when you’re actually there.
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Re: Shootings

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Multiple gunshot victims in Iowa high school shooting
Multiple people have been injured following a shooting at Perry High School in the US state of Iowa on Thursday morning, police say.

The suspect is confirmed dead, but it is unclear if it was from a self-inflicted gun shot wound, the BBC's US partner CBS News reported.

Officials said there was no further threat to the community.

This was the first day back in classes for students after their annual winter break.
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Re: Shootings

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After my mom's parents left the farm in Rippey IA, they moved to neighboring Perry IA. I still go there occasionally (typically for funerals of someone on my mom's side). Surreal to see them in the news, particularly for something as awful as this.
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Re: Shootings

Post by malchior »

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 2:50 pm Multiple gunshot victims in Iowa high school shooting
The suspect is confirmed dead, but it is unclear if it was from a self-inflicted gun shot wound, the BBC's US partner CBS News reported.
It's probably a good sign that there is a fill out the box data collection archetype for the lede to quick update folks on the fly. How many killed? Did he kill himself or did a "good guy with a gun" get them? Is it contained?
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Re: Shootings

Post by Octavious »

Thoughts and prayers. :P
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Re: Shootings

Post by disarm »

Well I guess someplace had to kick off the new year...
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Re: Shootings

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disarm wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:15 pm Well I guess someplace had to kick off the new year...
MSNBC
The shooting is the fourth incidence of gun violence on school property nationwide this year
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Re: Shootings

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Sixth grade student killed in Perry school shooting; five other victims shot
The suspect in a shooting at Perry High School has died of what investigators believe is a self-inflicted gunshot wound, a law enforcement official told The Associated Press.
...
Police found an improvised explosive device in the school, which the Iowa State Fire Marshal disarmed. The suspect was armed with a pump action shotgun and a small-caliber handgun, he said.
Last edited by Isgrimnur on Thu Jan 04, 2024 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur »

ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:30 pm
disarm wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:15 pm Well I guess someplace had to kick off the new year...
MSNBC
The shooting is the fourth incidence of gun violence on school property nationwide this year
Image
Spoiler:
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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