Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 9:22 am
Why not suggest an 'alert' system that's between 'normal' and 'full lockdown' for when something's reported in the area, but not at the school? Something that would send every student to their classroom, and close every door, but not go full 'lights out/get behind the desk' levels?
Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 9:54 pm
Yes, there seems to be lots of online "chatter" about how timelines aren't adding up and when the truth comes to light about what really happened it's going to make this entire story so much worse.
Timelines aren't adding up? Who really gives a shit? How does that make this worse?
Because there's a difference between...
1. Following protocols, even though that may have allowed more children to die (which is what the local PD wants you to believe).
and
2. Having no real plan to handle the situation, going into CYA mode and lying about what really went on, in the midst of children being massacred.
With #2 being the likely case, law enforcement officials need to be held accountable somehow. My anger is palpable.
+1
It matters. It matters a great deal. We need to look at what happened here to see if there were a series of failures that possibly lead to this gunman going unchallenged essentially for a long stretch of time, and figure out how we can prevent/lessen that in the future.
We also need to hold accountable anyone who was responsible for the protection of these children that may have failed them, and make sure they are removed from those positions.
This conversation reminds me of the opening scene to Fight Club. Ed Norton is sitting on a plane expounding on how the safety procedures are mostly bullshit intended to give passengers a feeling of safety.
Isn’t that sort of parallel to this?
Sure, finding some cops who didn’t do their job or who looked after their own personal interests during this mass shooting may give us an easy target to funnel our anger towards, but I don’t think it’s all that productive or useful.
The cops are clearly not the problem of significance here. Acting like cops doing their job would have averted this is a distraction.
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Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 9:22 am
Why not suggest an 'alert' system that's between 'normal' and 'full lockdown' for when something's reported in the area, but not at the school? Something that would send every student to their classroom, and close every door, but not go full 'lights out/get behind the desk' levels?
As absurd as it seems, it's the same principle - "Be ready, just in case." Another analogy would be tornado/thunderstorms, which have both watches and warnings. The whole point is that the police could notify them of any potential thread, and then, if it escalates, they're ready to act without delay. Kids are in the rooms, doors are closed and locked, but it's otherwise class-as-usual (as much as possible.)
This conversation reminds me of the opening scene to Fight Club. Ed Norton is sitting on a plane expounding on how the safety procedures are mostly bullshit intended to give passengers a feeling of safety.
Isn’t that sort of parallel to this?
No, because that was a cynical work of fiction. In real life, having well established safety procedures that are researched well and enforced in earnest work far more than not.
Acting like cops doing their job would have averted this is a distraction.
Averted completely? Maybe not. Saved a few more lives? Absolutely.
Have we talked about arming the students yet? I have to imagine that classroom full of 3rd graders armed with Glock 43s would stymie an attacker long enough to allow the responding tactical teams to find a safe entry point.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
New: Uvalde police prevented agents from Border Patrol and ICE who arrived at the school between 12 p.m. and 12:10 p.m., far earlier than previously known, from going inside, according to two officials.
Yeah, keeps getting worse for the local keystone cops. And now the conspiracy theorists are having a field day. I hate to think what Alex Jones is telling his flock.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
City and school district police officers arrived four minutes later but drew back after the gunman fired on them, Escalon said. The gunman then entered a classroom and opened fire on children and teachers while also firing back at the police.
The latest. They could have continued to draw the shooters attention away from the kids but they didn't. You have one fucking job in that situation. Draw fire.
This doesn't change the fact that we need to have changes around guns but holy shit, it's infuriating that these cops seem to have failed completely. The FBI has to investigate this one.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
hepcat wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 12:18 pm
Color me stupid, but I'm still not clear as to why Border Patrol and ICE were involved.
I think it's all hands for an active shooter situation in a school. They were in the area and responded.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
hepcat wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 12:18 pm
Color me stupid, but I'm still not clear as to why Border Patrol and ICE were involved.
If they were nearby they likely would have been notified to respond and assist given what was happening - in the same way that multiple emergency responder units are notified when there's a large fire or mass casualty event (the call for help goes to a much larger circle).
Kurth wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 11:13 amThe cops are clearly not the problem of significance here. Acting like cops doing their job would have averted this is a distraction.
They might not be the problem of significance but they are a significant pillar of the farcical GOP 'good guy with a gun' policy. Every time it doesn't work we should expose that reality. Maybe it'll go nowhere but properly investigating them is something more than just shrugging.
Kurth wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 11:13 amThe cops are clearly not the problem of significance here. Acting like cops doing their job would have averted this is a distraction.
They might not be the problem of significance but they are a significant pillar of the farcical GOP 'good guy with a gun' policy. Every time it doesn't work we should expose that reality. Maybe it'll go nowhere but properly investigating them is something more than just shrugging.
We also need to start pushing back against the argument that police forces need more money, more resources and more training. They had been allocated 40% (or close to it) of the municipal budget in this community. They made a big production of walking through the school in their SWAT gear a few years ago (why?) to make sure they were ready for something like this.
I'm under no illusion that guns are the problem that needs to be addressed. I'm not calling out the police in hopes to shame them or have them held accountable (they won't be). I'm pointing it out because for decades the local/state/national answer to the gun problem in America has been to militarize the police and harden school defenses. Well, we've done that and guess what? The problem is still guns.
Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 9:54 pm
Yes, there seems to be lots of online "chatter" about how timelines aren't adding up and when the truth comes to light about what really happened it's going to make this entire story so much worse.
Timelines aren't adding up? Who really gives a shit? How does that make this worse?
Because there's a difference between...
1. Following protocols, even though that may have allowed more children to die (which is what the local PD wants you to believe).
and
2. Having no real plan to handle the situation, going into CYA mode and lying about what really went on, in the midst of children being massacred.
With #2 being the likely case, law enforcement officials need to be held accountable somehow. My anger is palpable.
+1
It matters. It matters a great deal. We need to look at what happened here to see if there were a series of failures that possibly lead to this gunman going unchallenged essentially for a long stretch of time, and figure out how we can prevent/lessen that in the future.
We also need to hold accountable anyone who was responsible for the protection of these children that may have failed them, and make sure they are removed from those positions.
This conversation reminds me of the opening scene to Fight Club. Ed Norton is sitting on a plane expounding on how the safety procedures are mostly bullshit intended to give passengers a feeling of safety.
Isn’t that sort of parallel to this?
Sure, finding some cops who didn’t do their job or who looked after their own personal interests during this mass shooting may give us an easy target to funnel our anger towards, but I don’t think it’s all that productive or useful.
The cops are clearly not the problem of significance here. Acting like cops doing their job would have averted this is a distraction.
So your response is "meh"? Does not compute.
The others expounded on what I was initially talking about so no need to rehash it, but just wanted to say I cannot imagine being a parent of one of the victims when not only was your child killed, but you now know there was (most likely) negligence from those in authority that compounded the tragedy. I would be running through brick walls to figure out the real story.
Trent Steel wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 1:04 pmI would be running through brick walls to figure out the real story.
Or as one parent did: talk their way out of handcuffs, sneak away, climb a fence, evade the keystone cops, and get her own kids out of the kill zone. The whole thing is just wild in the sense that it doesn't seem like this happened in what is purported to be the most advanced, most prosperous country in human history.
Trent Steel wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 1:04 pmI would be running through brick walls to figure out the real story.
Or as one parent did: talk their way out of handcuffs, sneak away, climb a fence, evade the keystone cops, and get her own kids out of the kill zone. The whole thing is just wild in the sense that it doesn't seem like this happened in what is purported to be the most advanced, most prosperous country in human history.
I read about that and bravo to that mom.
I just can't wrap my mind around this whole thing. Children being killed with goddamn military weaponry (legally purchased by lunatics) is awful enough. When law enforcement decides to sit on their hands while it's going on? My brain short circuits. I... have no words.
stessier wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 1:51 pm
The just released timeline of 911 calls is brutal.
Especially when you sync it up with the cop’s timeline.
This was a law enforcement failure at every conceivable level, and 19 kids and 2 teachers are dead as a result. Yet there will continue to be no accountability and the proposed solutions are simply “we just need more cops and guns”. It’s sickening.
When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come.
I may be taking crazy pills, but I seem to recall another incident where border patrol responded to a mass shooting?
My blog (mostly photos): Fort Ephemera - My Flickr Photostream
“You only get one sunrise and one sunset a day, and you only get so many days on the planet. A good photographer does the math and doesn’t waste either.” ―Galen Rowell
If one agency has resources (including simple manpower) that could make a difference, they respond. It's better for them to show up and be waved off than not show up and be needed.
Having other trained professionals on hand for things like traffic and crowd control can free up officers to respond more effectively without pulling every single officer off of the streets - leaving the rest of the town vulnerable.
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 2:29 pm
If one agency has resources (including simple manpower) that could make a difference, they respond. It's better for them to show up and be waved off than not show up and be needed.
Having other trained professionals on hand for things like traffic and crowd control can free up officers to respond more effectively without pulling every single officer off of the streets - leaving the rest of the town vulnerable.
Agreed. Of course in this case, much of the local police where there and completely failed. I googled looking for other examples of border patrol being involved in a mass shooting and came up empty, so I must have made that up.
My blog (mostly photos): Fort Ephemera - My Flickr Photostream
“You only get one sunrise and one sunset a day, and you only get so many days on the planet. A good photographer does the math and doesn’t waste either.” ―Galen Rowell
Yeah, it's irrelevant when the people actually controlling the scene aren't doing their job.
Enough wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 2:34 pmI googled looking for other examples of border patrol being involved in a mass shooting and came up empty, so I must have made that up.
Or else it's not reported as remarkable. When things go (relatively) smoothly, that's the kind of thing that just sort of happens in the background. As the scene clears, the other agencies are released and go about their day - half the time nobody really notices that they're just the ones out there directing traffic or setting up an evac site to free up the cops.
Skinypupy wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 1:59 pm
This was a law enforcement failure at every conceivable level, and 19 kids and 2 teachers are dead as a result. Yet there will continue to be no accountability and the proposed solutions are simply “we just need more cops teachers andwith guns”. It’s sickening.
The insanity gets deeper. The 911 details are harrowing and make nonsense of the cop story. The new story is 19 officers were out in the hallway and they assumed all the kids were dead. Even though they were actively calling 911 begging for help.
One other thing to keep in mind is that they trained specifically for this. The shooter was an 18 year old male with a long rifle. How did this scenario deviate from any expected scenario?
Pyperkub wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 4:09 pm
This gives me more hope that this time will be better:
I don't recall seeing that kind of response ever before.
I agree it's different. The comments from many people are extremely angry and bewildered at how broken we are. From the predictable deadlock to the bumbling cops to ... everything we're fed up. I don't think things will change this time or even maybe the next time but I think this is another inflection point where tolerance of the status quo being forced on the majority by a minority is building pressure towards some inevitable crack up. I don't what it'll look like or when it'll happen but it is coming.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
A woman fatally shot a man who was firing an AR-15-style rifle into a crowd of people that had gathered for a party in West Virginia, authorities said.
According to a news release from the Charleston Police Department, Dennis Butler, 37, of Charleston, was found at around 10:45 p.m. EDT Wednesday with multiple gunshot wounds, WSAZ-TV reported.
Butler was killed after he took out the rifle and began shooting at people attending a birthday-graduation party in Charleston, according to The Associated Press.
/. "She climbed backwards out her
\/ window into Outside Over There."
If you haven't heard, the newest update to the telenovela 'As the Cops Lie' is that the CBP tactical team showed up between noon and ten past but the Uvalde police department wouldn't let them or told them not to enter the building. The story we were told days ago and this one have almost no overlap. At this point I'm waiting for the revelation that Ramos was deputized as a Uvalde cop. The NY Times has a time line up that was just again contradicted with a new story. It's pretty much impossible to untangle it at the moment.
malchior wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 8:24 am
Was this the procedure? Is it well-designed? Was there no other way to notify people of an urgent life threatening situation?
I posted a similar question earlier. But knowing that they used email instead of an announcement has me wondering: what was the school told? Were they told that there was an armed person in the building? Or were they just told there had been a shooting in the area? Is it possible that they were told something that shouldn't have resulted in a full lock down?
And I hope other schools will learn how to improve their own responses. While it didn't happen because of the school, I can see several ways to improve school response when it does happen based on this. There are two clear weak points in any response right now: the delay between the first shot and everyone being alerted, and the classroom door itself.
I also hesitate to go there because it leads to the problem that Smoove_B talks to that we keep funneling resources into an endless chase to pour precious resources on a fool's errand. What I talk about is data to not make incremental change like that that saps our resources. More I want the data to make cohesive policy arguments. It's easy to bat away background checks when there is no evidence it'll work mostly especially where we intentionally don't collect it.
Collecting the data is good - but I think that pursuing policy is the fools' errand (for the reasons I talked about before - our system prevents it from happening.) If it isn't going to happen, then not one child will be saved by it. On the other hand, while we're fixing the system to allow us to actually solve the problem in the future, and while the Rs are so desperate to blame anything but guns, why not take advantage of it to get something passed to pay for every public school to get solid core classroom doors with lexan windows, plus a 'panic button' for each staff member and/or classroom? Why not suggest an 'alert' system that's between 'normal' and 'full lockdown' for when something's reported in the area, but not at the school? Something that would send every student to their classroom, and close every door, but not go full 'lights out/get behind the desk' levels?
No, it's not the real solution to the real problem, but we can't solve the real problem right now. This will happen again. Why not at least make sure we're ready? Besides, a few zero-kill shooters that get stuck wandering empty hallways until the police arrive (eventually) might lessen the appeal for the next copycat.
And in the meantime, we collect data on the real solution, and we work on fixing the system that has us stuck in this endless 'suffer-wish-suffer-wish' loop.
If you turned the schools into fortresses, the shooting will just move outside school. The students need to travel from and to the school. So other than fortresses, are you going to fund armed guards and bulletproof transport to protect the students travelling to and from their home?
Victoria Raverna wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 7:40 pm
If you turned the schools into fortresses, the shooting will just move outside school. The students need to travel from and to the school. So other than fortresses, are you going to fund armed guards and bulletproof transport to protect the students travelling to and from their home?
Given the number of schools in the USA, even a single armed guard for each one of them would add up to a force the size of the USMC.
Larger schools would of course need more guards, and since most schools (with early-hours breakfast and post-school sports and club practices) serve students 12 or more hours a day, we would need a force three or four times the size of the USMC.
Meanwhile, killers would just figure out how to hit targets elsewhere.
