McNutt wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 10:59 am
There are several factors at play here for Dany.
1. She comes from a family known for going mad. The apple might not be falling far from the tree
The thing is, she knows this, and she's been constantly keeping it in check.
I don't think you get to forestall insanity with willpower.
True, it takes the ringing of Bells loudly apparently. It's like bells were programmed as her trigger word for Burn them All!
gameoverman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 3:08 pm
These people are her subjects. There's an expectation there that once they see the dragon/s then all doubt about her claim is erased. At that point you bend the knee or you are her enemy.
They had been defeated, they were terrified of her dragon (she had virtually single handedly taken the city), they surrendered, they had bent the knee, she had accomplished her goal. Having surrendered, they were now her subjects. Then she decides to slaughter them.
+1
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 5:23 pm
by morlac
Jaymann wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 3:51 pm
A better use of Euron would have been:
Jamie manages to flee the castle with Cersei, then they run into Euron at the boat. Cersei can't resist taunting him that it is not his baby. In a rage Euron kills Cersei, then Jamie kills Euron. Just when you thought they might escape...
While I didn't mind the Jamie/Cersei death as much as other things in this episode, your idea makes the weird Euron duel so much better.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 5:27 pm
by morlac
Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 3:50 pm
Jon Snow doesn't know not to stick his ....
What's going to ruin him for life is that this will be the second women (and only 2) who he has slept with that will try and kill him. He may even rejoin the night's watch so he swear of the ladies again. I mean do you even go for a third after that?
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 6:11 pm
by rittchard
I've only caught up with about half the comments here, but I had to get some of my own thoughts down. Definitely agree with a lot of what's been said here so I won't dwell on some of it. Great production and visuals, some good ideas, but mostly a lot of really rushed and sloppy writing, ending rich character story arcs that deserved far better.
While I ultimately both loved and hated the episode, here were the things that drove me nuts the most while watching it:
- Focused aim fire. When he goes to burn Varys, Drogon apparently focuses a tight beam to burn him, because from the looks of the distance and beamwidth of the flame later on, it seems like everyone standing there next to Varys would have caught fire too. Just a minor nit made worse by the later scenes
- Drogon level up or Euron level down? What was different this time around that Dany could freely destroy the entire iron fleet and all of the scorpions with just a couple of dodges? It looked like they were implying the boats were all facing one direction and were too slow to accommodate the dragon coming from another direction, is that what I was supposed to get out of that? They went from super smart surprise attackers last week to a massive collection of strategic idiots with weapons that apparently couldn't rotate? There were many ways they could have explained this away, heck I'd even buy that they cast a magic shield spell to deflect the arrows; at least say something!!!
- So many people running around. Where the f are they running from and where are they running to? It's mentioned that Dany has been hiding in her room for days or something like that between episodes. In the previous episode, I thought they said Cersei had forced all the people inside to essentially use as human shields. OK so if that already happened, why were there so many people trying to get in to the main area, and where were they coming from? Oh a dragon is coming, let's all rush to get to where it's going to attack!!! And then the people already inside, why were they running around like freaking idiots from one place to another? If you know an army and a dragon are coming, why not stay indoors? Or head to the sewers or underground or anywhere? No no no, I think I'll just run around the streets to present an easy target wheeeeee!!!!!!
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 7:07 pm
by Grifman
Regarding your questions about the people:
They showed more people in this episode coming into the city from the countryside.
Strangers to the city would know nothing of sewers/underground.
They are running because the area they are in is under attack. Plus if you see the dragon overhead you might assume you will be under attack soon and see to try to find another area you can't see it and it can't see you.
People just in from the countryside wouldn't necessarily have an inside place to go to.
People in a panic don't always make rational decisions.
People running is dramatic.
gameoverman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 3:08 pm
These people are her subjects. There's an expectation there that once they see the dragon/s then all doubt about her claim is erased. At that point you bend the knee or you are her enemy.
They had been defeated, they were terrified of her dragon (she had virtually single handedly taken the city), they surrendered, they had bent the knee, she had accomplished her goal. Having surrendered, they were now her subjects. Then she decides to slaughter them.
It was too late for sanity to hold sway. Remember when they met at the city to discuss the white walker problem? Dany showed everyone she was real and had dragons, yet it got her nowhere. The time to stop her from going on a rampage would have been before she started her rampage. I remember that her concern was not attacking the city because innocent people would die. That was the red line. Once she did in fact attack the city with her dragon the line was crossed, which made it more likely she would just keep attacking until she thought she did enough. It's not like if she had stopped right then everyone would have thought she was kind and just.
Personally I think the look she shot Cersei's way before she continued the attack was her considering accepting the surrender. Maybe she thought of all she had suffered to regain leadership of people who didn't seem to care who ruled and she wanted everyone to know what it feels like.
On the dragon's success at attacking I chalk it up to her being prepared for a fight, which is different than getting ambushed and immediately suffering a massive loss(the dragon). She knows what she's up against, knows where they are, knows what her dragon can do, and determines the time and place of the fight. Meanwhile her enemy is over confident and why shouldn't they be? They have no idea how crazy they made her. They provoked her to Tywin Lannister levels of payback.
gameoverman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 3:08 pm
These people are her subjects. There's an expectation there that once they see the dragon/s then all doubt about her claim is erased. At that point you bend the knee or you are her enemy.
They had been defeated, they were terrified of her dragon (she had virtually single handedly taken the city), they surrendered, they had bent the knee, she had accomplished her goal. Having surrendered, they were now her subjects. Then she decides to slaughter them.
It was too late for sanity to hold sway. [...]
How was it too late? She had already *won* the battle. The throne was hers as much as it had ever been any conqueror's. The common people offered no resistance and the enemy armies had died or surrendered.
Dany's victory at King's Landing was easier than Mereen or anywhere else. We're supposed to think that she was stressed to the breaking point by political tensions (Jon, Varys, Tyrion), but those tensions were all completely in hand. It makes no sense.
I know we're supposed to accept "Targaryen Madness" as the excuse, but that just totally lazy. If that was the arc, they needed to make it interesting before now. They never did.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 9:01 pm
by Rumpy
gameoverman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 7:35 pm
On the dragon's success at attacking I chalk it up to her being prepared for a fight, which is different than getting ambushed and immediately suffering a massive loss(the dragon). She knows what she's up against, knows where they are, knows what her dragon can do, and determines the time and place of the fight. Meanwhile her enemy is over confident and why shouldn't they be? They have no idea how crazy they made her. They provoked her to Tywin Lannister levels of payback.
Yep, given her last encounter with the fleet, she was prepared this time. She knew their tactics this time around and wasn't going to make the same mistake twice and in fact I think she used their blind spots against them.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 9:03 pm
by Jaddison
Do dragons have an unlimited supply of fire? They never need to rest and replenish?
I read an analysis of the decision to burn everything as the reaction to Jon turning her down and Dany knowing that no one wanted her as Queen and never would so she needed to rule by fear but also eliminating a fair number of people likely to be always hostile to her reign.
I don't really understand Tyrions actions. He knowingly sacrifices Vareys to be loyal yet sets Jaime free knowing it is highly unlikely what he hopes will happen happens. In the end his love of his brother trumped loyalty to Dany even though just hours before he sacrificed his best friend.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 9:44 pm
by hepcat
Did anyone catch the giant shark that Drogon flew...well, jumped...over about 10 minutes into the episode?
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 10:08 pm
by JCC
hepcat wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 9:44 pm
Did anyone catch the giant shark that Drogon flew...well, jumped...over about 10 minutes into the episode?
Ha! I said something similar this morning when discussing the episode with co-workers:
"I was enjoying the episode until Dany jumped her motorcycle dragon over the shark."
Dany going a little crazy when the fighting was going on would have been one thing. Doing it when the entire city was dead (pun intended) still, and there wasn't even a shred of resistance left, was just ridiculous.
I get why people were disappointed at the way Cersei died, but I was actually impressed they made me feel some sympathy for her at the end. Lena Heady's such a superb actress, I thought she was wonderful portraying such fear and grief for herself, Jamie, and their child. She's largely been almost cartoonish in her evil schemes, but she has real motivations, clearly established in the narrative. I am unclear why they bothered keeping the prophecy about being killed by her younger brother in the show if they weren't going to follow up on it - unless it was just there to explain why she's always hated Tyrion.
As for Jamie, I thought they handled him perfectly. I have always felt Jamie wanted to be a good man, but was so infatuated and in love with Cersei he lived a life subverting his good side to stay with her and grant her every whim. He left her when she finally "went too far" as queen and went to do what was "right" and fight the white walkers. He was feeling good about himself, and tried to make it work with Brienne. But, he just couldn't quit Cersei, and even though he knew he was giving up his chance to be a "good" man, his love and lust was too much to resist. I actually think the handling of Jamie has been very well done last season and this season in spite of the reduced episode count.
I highly doubt Martin will ever finish the books, but I think he has hinted he may change the ending. I wouldn't doubt he would now after the backlash to this season. I have pretty strongly preferred the show to the books (and it's not even close - and I read the first book WAY before the show existed. In fact, I didn't watch the show due to my frustration with the book) - including last season which I liked more than most around here did. But this season has just been a disaster of a rush. They should have just done two full seasons this year and last and I have no doubt things would have been better.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 11:55 pm
by ImLawBoy
Holman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 8:49 pm
Dany's victory at King's Landing was easier than Mereen or anywhere else. We're supposed to think that she was stressed to the breaking point by political tensions (Jon, Varys, Tyrion), but those tensions were all completely in hand. It makes no sense.
Wait, what? "Completely in hand"? She just torched her oldest and first supporter, she let her hand know that he was one mistake away from being BBQ'd himself, and she convinced herself that her lover was trying to steal her claim to the throne. If that's "completely in hand", I'd hate to see what it's like when things are spiraling out of control. (Not to mention she had just seen her best friend and advisor lose her head [literally] to taunt her, and her most loyal advisor died saving her.) I mean, there's a legit argument that things moved too fast here, but you don't really need to make things up.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:06 am
by Blackhawk
And she just spent several days locked away, by herself, swimming in her own paranoia.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:09 am
by McNutt
Yeah, I'm not sure how you think she had everything under control. She had won the battle, true, but the thing she wanted most (total power) was not a given. Everything in her life was going to hell.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:16 am
by Ralph-Wiggum
The thing that’s perhaps most bothersome to me is that many of the scenes could make so much more sense with just slight, seemingly obvious,changes. For instance, say the bells ring for peace and then Cersei (out of spite, vindictiveness, or any of the similar traits we’ve seen her show) kills Missandei. I could then see that triggering Dany to torch the city. Or take the previous episode: if Dany had seen Euron’s ships and charged them out of hubris and then one of her dragons got killed, that would both fit with her character (hubris due to dragon) and not require heat seeking scorpions. There have been just so many wasted opportunities to make these general events play out but be more in keeping with the characters they’ve built for 8 seasons.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:51 am
by Zaxxon
Man, I'm just back from vacation and haven't read all of the 600 (!) posts in this thread since I last opened it at the end of April. But...
It is difficult for me to put into words the level of disgust I feel after catching up on the most recent two episodes. What a shame that the series will end on such drivel. Martin must be rolling over in his fan-assumed grave, as he'd never have written this story as it's ending here.
Ugh.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 1:31 am
by Zaxxon
For some small measure of my disgust, this is a start:
The show moved from being well-written to so horribly rushed that it doesn't even feel like the same show.
Plot armor not only became real, but is now exquisitely-crafted to provide picture-perfect endings for all major characters--contravening a core aspect of GRRM's m.o.
Some of this I can buy. They had the episode count they had, and did what they could. At great cost to the show's quality and to all our detriment, but it is what it is. But just to pick a few in this last episode--Jaime happens to run into Euron who swam from his boat perhaps half a mile out to sea, then they have exactly the battle you'd expect, replete with both characters exiting the scene alive to either utter witty reposte (Euron) or advance to the next highly cliched death scene? (Jaime) The Hound ends up succeeding in fighting his bro, who turns out to be exactly what we thought, the fight goes exactly how we expected, they even fit in a nod to Gregor's Viper-nuking eye poke, then--get this--what if... What if we have the Hound kill his bro by overcoming his fear of flames and dive-bombing them both to their death into fiery rubble? No one will see that coming!
This is all in addition to the idea that Dany was able to nuke all the scorpions on both the fleet and the city, and that Cersei/Qyburn wouldn't have mounted any scorpions within the city, or on the Red Keep? Come on. It's a non-starter to chalk it solely up to surprise given how the clash was depicted in the prior episode. It's more plot armor, this time for Drogon.
My biggest beefs are that the Others went from a (the?) core of the show to an episode-of-the-week tidying up and moving on, and that I don't buy Dany's complete transformation into Mad King Aerys. Those latching onto her foreshadowed ability to nuke her enemies with little remorse, yes, I agree that's there. That she wanted what was hers, and was willing to take it with fire and blood, sure.
But she knows the throne isn't hers. It's hers and Jon's. She wanted the throne to restore her family's status. She can do that with Jon. Cersei's her enemy. The people of King's Landing aren't. She knows that. And further, she also knows that by doing what she did in this episode as wantonly as she did, she lost Jon. And Tyrion. And all of Westeros. And everyone but the small Dothraki and Unsullied who remain. There is no chance she can hold Westeros with one dragon and her remaining Essosians.
She fully undermined herself to the point that she is 100% fucked. So to accept this episode, it seems to me that you must accept that she's gone totally mad. I don't think the writers earned that.
If the goal was to have her decide that the cost is worthwhile, then once the walls are breached and she knows she's basically invulnerable (which she knows, given the way she slowly worked through the city) she could have proceeded as cleanly as possible to the Keep and nuked that. The idea that she just snapped and chose to napalm innocents/perceived subjects so much is simply not backed by her prior character development.
Ugh.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:19 am
by Hamlet3145
Everything Zaxxon said.
Yep.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 8:20 am
by Combustible Lemur
Hamlet3145 wrote:
Everything Zaxxon said.
Yep.
I disagree, she doesn't know these things. She knows people should love her, that the iron throne is her birthright alone, and that she will raze any enemy in her way. Just like she always has. Every time the people, don't bow in reverence more people die. She slaughters the masters, or the entire dothraki council.
I do agree that I don't buy the extent of her madness here but I think the line is thinner than people want.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 8:36 am
by Daveman
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 12:51 amMartin must be rolling over in his fan-assumed grave, as he'd never have written this story as it's ending here.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 8:45 am
by Fregion
I loved the 5th episode, was watching it in my Berlin property [SPAM link removed by Bakhtosh] with brother and his girlfriend. Several times was surprised with the way the plot line went but it was epic anyway. In anticipation of the last episode of the whole TV show now.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 8:51 am
by hepcat
That may be the best (and by best, I mean most annoying) spam post I've ever seen.
Anyway, for those of you who haven't rushed off to purchase a condo in Germany just now, I found it interesting that after the stare down between Dany and Cersei (well, the tower she was in, at least), there was zero Dany. It's like the actress herself couldn't even think of a way to successfully portray SOMS (Sudden Onset Madness Syndrome).
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:40 am
by McNutt
The only thing crazier than Dany are the deals in Berlin!
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:56 am
by msteelers
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 1:31 amPlot armor not only became real, but is now exquisitely-crafted to provide picture-perfect endings for all major characters--contravening a core aspect of GRRM's m.o.
Wait, I thought the show has betrayed all of the characters? Certainly you can't think that what happened with Dany and Jaime are picture perfect endings.
Jaime happens to run into Euron who swam from his boat perhaps half a mile out to sea, then they have exactly the battle you'd expect, replete with both characters exiting the scene alive to either utter witty reposte (Euron) or advance to the next highly cliched death scene? (Jaime)
I can't defend this. I would have been perfectly happy to see Euron die by dragon fire. I think the producers wanted the two Danish men on set to fight each other.
The Hound ends up succeeding in fighting his bro, who turns out to be exactly what we thought, the fight goes exactly how we expected, they even fit in a nod to Gregor's Viper-nuking eye poke, then--get this--what if... What if we have the Hound kill his bro by overcoming his fear of flames and dive-bombing them both to their death into fiery rubble? No one will see that coming!
I heard an interesting quote from the show runners on this fight scene. Basically, the showrunners wanted to see this fight as much as the audience did. You might personally not have cared, but the Clegane Bowl was a thing. That fight went largely the way I expected it to, and I still enjoyed it.
This is all in addition to the idea that Dany was able to nuke all the scorpions on both the fleet and the city, and that Cersei/Qyburn wouldn't have mounted any scorpions within the city, or on the Red Keep? Come on. It's a non-starter to chalk it solely up to surprise given how the clash was depicted in the prior episode. It's more plot armor, this time for Drogon.
She was ambushed in a moment where she had let her guard down, and lost a dragon. As soon as she realized the threat, she was able to avoid the scorpions on the iron fleet. With time to plan and come up with a strategy, she showed just how powerful and devastating a dragon can be, and why it's the game changer in this world.
My biggest beefs are that the Others went from a (the?) core of the show to an episode-of-the-week tidying up and moving on,
I also wish the Night King played a bigger role. We have 90 minutes left. Maybe they still do. This felt like a combination of the showrunners preferring the political storyline more than the zombies, and possibly HBO asking them to hold back to save material for the prequel series. That's pure speculation on my part.
and that I don't buy Dany's complete transformation into Mad King Aerys.
Interesting, because she's always been portrayed as someone that could turn into the Mad Queen.
Those latching onto her foreshadowed ability to nuke her enemies with little remorse, yes, I agree that's there. That she wanted what was hers, and was willing to take it with fire and blood, sure.
Oh, so we agree then? Cool. I'll move on to the rest of your pos...
But she knows the throne isn't hers.
Wait, what?
It's hers and Jon's.
No, she most definitely doesn't know that or want that. Neither her nor Jon want to co-rule.
She wanted the throne to restore her family's status. She can do that with Jon. Cersei's her enemy. The people of King's Landing aren't.
True
She knows that.
Most definitely not true.
And further, she also knows that by doing what she did in this episode as wantonly as she did, she lost Jon. And Tyrion. And all of Westeros. And everyone but the small Dothraki and Unsullied who remain. There is no chance she can hold Westeros with one dragon and her remaining Essosians.
Does she know that? That remains to be seen. We'll have to find out next week.
She fully undermined herself to the point that she is 100% fucked. So to accept this episode, it seems to me that you must accept that she's gone totally mad.
YES!!!!
I don't think the writers earned that.
That's your right, I guess.
If the goal was to have her decide that the cost is worthwhile, then once the walls are breached and she knows she's basically invulnerable (which she knows, given the way she slowly worked through the city) she could have proceeded as cleanly as possible to the Keep and nuked that. The idea that she just snapped and chose to napalm innocents/perceived subjects so much is simply not backed by her prior character development.
I think a rewatch of the series, knowing what we know now, is going to be very illuminating. Hell, even in the last two episodes she showed total disdain for the people of Kings Landing. They weren't innocent to her. They weren't hostages. They were implicit in Cersei's rule. They could have revolted at any time to punish the people that punished her and her family. They allowed all of the bad things that happened to Dany to happen.
I don't think Dany was trying to send a message to anybody when she snapped and started destroying Kings Landing. And she certainly wasn't doing what she felt was needed to win the war. The war was already won. The message had already been sent. She was punishing everyone in that city.
Ugh.
Agreed.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:56 am
by Archinerd
hepcat wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 8:51 am
That may be the best (and by best, I mean most annoying) spam post I've ever seen.
It's a bit braggy, but I'm somewhat sympathetic. Maybe I'm misreading it, but it seems to me that spam bot has feelings for it's brother's girlfriend. Instead of getting out into the world and finding relationships for itself it settles for having an awkward viewing party in a sad attempt to impress.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:12 am
by hepcat
Number Five is alive!
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:17 am
by Zaxxon
I guess I'll just say I disagree with msteelers' analysis fairly completely. I agree that a rewatch will be interesting. Knowing how trashed the last season-plus is, though, my commitment to doing so will be low.
Regarding comments from the showrunners, they've been part of the issue for me, as well. Many of their stated motivations, as mentioned by msteelers re the Clegane bowl, come basically down to 'this would sure be cool to see, amirite?' It's very much a different tack to GRRM's style.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:21 am
by McNutt
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:17 am
Regarding comments from the showrunners, they've been part of the issue for me, as well. Many of their stated motivations, as mentioned by msteelers re the Clegane bowl, come basically down to 'this would should sure be cool to see, amirite?' It's very much a different tack to GRRM's style.
Yep. Martin's style has never been to give the people what they want. Even good people (the heroes) are flawed and the bad people aren't always pure evil. I couldn't imagine him having the Clegane bowl. It wouldn't surprise me to read in his book that word reached The Hound that Robert Strong collapsed and died for no real reason and that's all we hear about his death.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:22 am
by hepcat
It was stuffed full of Hollywood character arc conclusions. I wanted...I expected... more from the show.
Holman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 8:49 pm
Dany's victory at King's Landing was easier than Mereen or anywhere else. We're supposed to think that she was stressed to the breaking point by political tensions (Jon, Varys, Tyrion), but those tensions were all completely in hand. It makes no sense.
Wait, what? "Completely in hand"? She just torched her oldest and first supporter, she let her hand know that he was one mistake away from being BBQ'd himself, and she convinced herself that her lover was trying to steal her claim to the throne. If that's "completely in hand", I'd hate to see what it's like when things are spiraling out of control. (Not to mention she had just seen her best friend and advisor lose her head [literally] to taunt her, and her most loyal advisor died saving her.) I mean, there's a legit argument that things moved too fast here, but you don't really need to make things up.
In the moments before her rampage, Dany was as secure of her goals as she had ever been, and perhaps as secure as any ruler we've ever seen in the show.
If Viserys was a threat, he wasn't any more. Jon's willingness to serve has never been in doubt. Tyrion is Tyrion, but he has only offered criticism, not danger. Dany's army was both victorious and loyal. The battle was done. Her only open foe was locked up in a highly flammable tower right in front of her.
Sure, there were quirks of politics to work out, but there was literally nothing standing between her and the Iron Throne except a quick napalm run on the Red Keep. It seems to me that, yeah, when the first bells rang and the Lannister troops surrendered, Dany had things completely in hand. Stannis Baratheon never had it this good even on his best day.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:03 am
by hepcat
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:04 am
by McNutt
Jon told her he didn't want to rule, but that doesn't mean she feels safe. Word is out that she's not the rightful heir.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:18 am
by ImLawBoy
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 1:31 am
Plot armor not only became real, but is now exquisitely-crafted to provide picture-perfect endings for all major characters--contravening a core aspect of GRRM's m.o.
There's a lot of legit criticism of the show to be had, but calling these endings "picture-perfect" is perhaps the oddest I've seen. I don't want to re-write what I already wrote, so I'll just copy it here (in spoiler tags so it doesn't take up double the space). The gist of it is that for the most part the show has avoided picture-perfect paths for the characters in the last episode.
Spoiler:
GoT made its bones by subverting convention. Kids get injured/killed. Heroes die. Stories go in unexpected directions. In that sense, this was really a return to form. We're not getting the happy, Hollywood ending that some people had expected/feared (at least not without some incredible gymnastics next week). Things didn't go the conventional route.
The conventional route for Jaime would have been full redemption. This likely would have involved killing Cersei or at least fully abandoning her. This episode defied convention and subverted expectations by reminding us that Jaime is still deeply flawed.
The conventional route for Cersei would have been dying with a sneer on her lips at the hands of a hero. Instead, she dies whimpering in the arms of her brother/lover.
The conventional route for Arya would have been to succeed in her revenge list. Instead, she has an epiphany about the futility of it all. She goes and tries to help others to safety, but fails there, too.
The conventional route for Tyrion would have been to come up with a last minute brilliant plan to save everyone and atone for his mistakes. Instead, he just signed his death warrant in a futile effort.
The conventional route for The Hound would have been to confront and defeat his brother, likely involving fire. Instead . . . well, yeah. That happened and was pretty boring.
Obviously, the conventional route for Dany would have been to pull back from the brink of madness and not slaughter tens of thousands of innocents. But she didn't. She snapped. She was always someone with violent, vengeful tendencies. She kept them in check (mostly) through willpower and good advisors. Everything that allowed her to be a magnanimous ruler outside of Westeros was gone, though. She lost 2/3 of her dragons. She lost her good counselors in Missandei and Tyrion (who ran out of good ideas about midway through the series, it seems). Those loyal to her betrayed her in Varys and Jon. The people didn't love her as they did in the past, even after she sacrificed much of her army to save the world from the undead.
Zaxxon wrote:Some of this I can buy. They had the episode count they had, and did what they could.
Oddly, I'll disagree with you again here. They apparently self-limited the episode count, as HBO was willing to give them full seasons to do things properly.
Zaxxon wrote:This is all in addition to the idea that Dany was able to nuke all the scorpions on both the fleet and the city, and that Cersei/Qyburn wouldn't have mounted any scorpions within the city, or on the Red Keep? Come on. It's a non-starter to chalk it solely up to surprise given how the clash was depicted in the prior episode. It's more plot armor, this time for Drogon.
Again, I won't re-write everything I wrote on this previously. I really do think the surprise element is legit here, though. Frankly, Euron was lucky to take down a dragon the first time and only did so because of the element of surprise. Without that element, the scorpions are simply too unwieldy and inaccurate to be consistently effective. Of course, Cersei, Euron, and Qyburn likely were overconfident because of their initial success, which didn't help them in the long run.
Zaxxon wrote:My biggest beefs are that the Others went from a (the?) core of the show to an episode-of-the-week tidying up and moving on,
I'm with you there.
Zaxxon wrote: and that I don't buy Dany's complete transformation into Mad King Aerys.
I can see this. I'm just a bit more forgiving on this than you are, I guess. I think all the pressures adding up could have caused it, and I think they showed us this was a real possibility (although they did so in a rushed manner).
Zaxxon wrote:But she knows the throne isn't hers. It's hers and Jon's. She wanted the throne to restore her family's status. She can do that with Jon.
I don't think this is right. She wanted the throne for herself, not for her family. Maybe at some point in the past it was a Targaryen thing, but she very clearly toward the end felt threatened by Jon's superior claim to the throne, and would not have been satisfied unless she were the ruler.
Zaxxon wrote:Cersei's her enemy. The people of King's Landing aren't. She knows that.
No, she doesn't. She should have known this, but the show makes clear that she didn't. She said as much that they were complicit with Cersei for not rebelling against her and welcoming Dany as a liberator.
Zaxxon wrote: And further, she also knows that by doing what she did in this episode as wantonly as she did, she lost Jon. And Tyrion. And all of Westeros. And everyone but the small Dothraki and Unsullied who remain. There is no chance she can hold Westeros with one dragon and her remaining Essosians.
Again, she should have known this, but she didn't actually know this. Because the people weren't loving her, she had to hold power via fear (in her mind). This isn't rational, but Dany was hardly rational at the end. Maybe she thought that after a few years of her not destroying any major cities they would eventually start to like her? Again, it's not rational, but she wasn't rational.
Zaxxon wrote:She fully undermined herself to the point that she is 100% fucked. So to accept this episode, it seems to me that you must accept that she's gone totally mad. I don't think the writers earned that.
I give the writer's partial credit for earning it, although there's a bit of a leap given the time and episode constraints. I totally get not thinking they earned it. If, however, you take it as a given, the rest of the episode starts to make a lot more sense.
Holman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 8:49 pm
Dany's victory at King's Landing was easier than Mereen or anywhere else. We're supposed to think that she was stressed to the breaking point by political tensions (Jon, Varys, Tyrion), but those tensions were all completely in hand. It makes no sense.
Wait, what? "Completely in hand"? She just torched her oldest and first supporter, she let her hand know that he was one mistake away from being BBQ'd himself, and she convinced herself that her lover was trying to steal her claim to the throne. If that's "completely in hand", I'd hate to see what it's like when things are spiraling out of control. (Not to mention she had just seen her best friend and advisor lose her head [literally] to taunt her, and her most loyal advisor died saving her.) I mean, there's a legit argument that things moved too fast here, but you don't really need to make things up.
In the moments before her rampage, Dany was as secure of her goals as she had ever been, and perhaps as secure as any ruler we've ever seen in the show.
If Viserys was a threat, he wasn't any more. Jon's willingness to serve has never been in doubt. Tyrion is Tyrion, but he has only offered criticism, not danger. Dany's army was both victorious and loyal. The battle was done. Her only open foe was locked up in a highly flammable tower right in front of her.
Sure, there were quirks of politics to work out, but there was literally nothing standing between her and the Iron Throne except a quick napalm run on the Red Keep. It seems to me that, yeah, when the first bells rang and the Lannister troops surrendered, Dany had things completely in hand. Stannis Baratheon never had it this good even on his best day.
You seem to think she hadn't already gone mad prior to her rampage or that the apparent military victory would have pulled her back from the brink. Regardless, I can't see how you can call the political tensions completely in hand. You're completely minimizing the devastating effect Varys's treason had on her by thinking that she'd be fine once he was dead. You're overlooking that she felt that Tyrion had been borderline treasonous by not telling her about things right away, so he was untrustworthy and a potential threat. You choose to ignore that she doesn't trust Jon anymore since he's already starting blabbing his secrets, knowing that they would likely get out. His willingness to serve is in doubt - in her mind, anyway. And you don't even seem to consider the impact of losing Missandei and Jorah and Dragon 2.
If the goal was to have her decide that the cost is worthwhile, then once the walls are breached and she knows she's basically invulnerable (which she knows, given the way she slowly worked through the city) she could have proceeded as cleanly as possible to the Keep and nuked that. The idea that she just snapped and chose to napalm innocents/perceived subjects so much is simply not backed by her prior character development.
I think a rewatch of the series, knowing what we know now, is going to be very illuminating. Hell, even in the last two episodes she showed total disdain for the people of Kings Landing. They weren't innocent to her. They weren't hostages. They were implicit in Cersei's rule. They could have revolted at any time to punish the people that punished her and her family. They allowed all of the bad things that happened to Dany to happen.
As pointed out in a GoT recap I listen to, if the writers felt they had done a good enough job setting up Dany's sudden descent into madness, they wouldn't have felt the need to overlay a bunch of sound bites from previous episodes/seasons on to the "previously on" segment of the show. As far as they (or I) can remember, this is the first time the "previously on" wasn't just clips of past episodes.
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 1:31 amIf the goal was to have her decide that the cost is worthwhile, then once the walls are breached and she knows she's basically invulnerable (which she knows, given the way she slowly worked through the city) she could have proceeded as cleanly as possible to the Keep and nuked that. The idea that she just snapped and chose to napalm innocents/perceived subjects so much is simply not backed by her prior character development.
I think a rewatch of the series, knowing what we know now, is going to be very illuminating. Hell, even in the last two episodes she showed total disdain for the people of Kings Landing. They weren't innocent to her. They weren't hostages. They were implicit in Cersei's rule. They could have revolted at any time to punish the people that punished her and her family. They allowed all of the bad things that happened to Dany to happen.
As pointed out in a GoT recap I listen to, if the writers felt they had done a good enough job setting up Dany's sudden descent into madness, they wouldn't have felt the need to overlay a bunch of sound bites from previous episodes/seasons on to the "previously on" segment of the show. As far as they (or I) can remember, this is the first time the "previously on" wasn't just clips of past episodes.
As far as I know all of those sound bytes were from previous episodes, and it's not unusual for shows to throw in something on the "previously on" segment from several seasons prior if it will help viewers understand something in the upcoming episode.
I thought the previously on was very well done and set the tone for where Dany and her advisors were when the episode started.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:33 am
by McNutt
She's all alone. Her trusted friends are all either dead or no longer trustworthy.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:35 am
by ImLawBoy
McNutt wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:33 am
She's all alone. Her trusted friends are all either dead or no longer trustworthy.
With the exception of Grey Worm, this is true and really at the core of things. She trusts no one.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:43 am
by Holman
ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:18 am
You seem to think she hadn't already gone mad prior to her rampage or that the apparent military victory would have pulled her back from the brink. Regardless, I can't see how you can call the political tensions completely in hand. You're completely minimizing the devastating effect Varys's treason had on her by thinking that she'd be fine once he was dead. You're overlooking that she felt that Tyrion had been borderline treasonous by not telling her about things right away, so he was untrustworthy and a potential threat. You choose to ignore that she doesn't trust Jon anymore since he's already starting blabbing his secrets, knowing that they would likely get out. His willingness to serve is in doubt - in her mind, anyway. And you don't even seem to consider the impact of losing Missandei and Jorah and Dragon 2.
A suspicious and paranoid Dany turning on Jon Snow and Tyrion would have made some sense. A suspicious and paranoid Dany going full-on genocidal Mad King seems unsupported by any of the character-building we've had for seven seasons. It's not even supported by the rushed descent into paranoia they've given us this season.
Putting a long- and fully-developed central character through a complete 180 has to be narratively earned, at the very least because circumstances force her into it. My whole point (in the posts you dislike) is that circumstances have done no such thing. This isn't Dany but just a quickie Diaboli ex Machina, and it's a failure of storytelling.
We don't have to keep arguing, though. You think I've overstated the case, and perhaps I have. I just don't have patience for the bad writing they're giving us this season.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:58 am
by McNutt
Holman wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:43 am A suspicious and paranoid Dany going full-on genocidal Mad King seems unsupported by any of the character-building we've had for seven seasons. It's not even supported by the rushed descent into paranoia they've given us this season.
It's a combination of mental instability and a desperate need to show that she still has the power and needs to be feared. In her mind, that's the only chance she has at gaining the crown. Destroying the biggest city in the realm single handedly makes a powerful statement.
Of course I realize I'm trying to combine mental illness and rational thinking.
