Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Unagi
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 11:23 pm BTW, according to this article, Hamas was not the only one that killed totally innocent people on October 7th. So if number of the victims are what made it "off the charts" maybe need to corrected a bit.

https://thecradle.co/articles-id/13111


This is where you come across as absurd. Anyone who died on Oct 7th is basically entirely on Hamas. One cannot just dismiss that act as their act, and pretend it was not. I actually think that the Oct 7th attacks were perhaps 'innevitable' - given the untenable situation - but I don't think that the Oct 7th attacks were justified or anything but an absolutely "off-the-charts" terrorist attack. I think that was indeed the entire POINT.


You are actually handing me information (you searched for!) that is all basically "Fog of War" crap.

That's a joke.
Honestly, what in hell did you hope to gain from that !?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

That Cradle article made me searched for the incident they referred to.

This is not "fog of war" crap:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 ... 7f22d60000
Family members of Israelis who were killed on October 7 after a standoff between Hamas terrorists and the Israeli army led to the army firing a tank at a house where the civilians were held hostage are demanding that the military probe its actions that day.

The families' demand, which was confirmed by two sources who spoke to Haaretz, was reported on Friday on Israel's Channel 12 News and preceded last month's New York Times investigation in which Brig. Gen. Barak Hiram said he had ordered a tank commander to fire on the home of Kibbutz Be'eri resident Pesi Cohen, in which Israeli civilians and many terrorists were holed up, "even at the cost of civilian casualties."

According to an earlier report by Channel 12, after hours of firefighting between the Hamas terrorists and the Israeli army on that day, a terrorist released Yasmin Porat, a civilian who had been in the house, outside. At that point, she was questioned by Police Special Anti-Terror and told them that there were several dozen terrorists and 14 civilian hostages in the house, she testified.

In their letter, families of the killed Israelis demanded "a comprehensive and transparent probe into the decisions and actions that led to this tragic outcome. In addition, we request that the findings be first provided to the families and only after that to the public."

The families added that "in light of the severity of what happened," the investigation should be opened immediately and not only after the war. According to them, the army should investigate "when the memory is still fresh for all involved" and before the house is demolished and rebuilt.

Only two of the hostages survived the day: Be'eri resident Hadas Dagan and Porat, who went to the Nova music festival in Re'im with her partner and fled with him to Be'eri when the Hamas attack began. Porat has described in many interviews, including with Haaretz, that after she was taken outside by one of the terrorists, who surrendered, she stayed in the area for hours and herself witnessed the tank hitting the house.

Dagan confirmed Porat's testimony in an interview with Channel 12's Friday news program "Ulpan Shishi" a few weeks later. She told the New York Times that a shrapnel from the tank's second shell killed her husband, Adi.

The IDF Spokesperson's Unit said in response that the army would conduct a detailed and in-depth probe "when operational status would allow it" following which it will publish its findings. The army did not clarify if the investigation would be carried out during the war.

According to the army's statement, "in all the Gaza border communities, [IDF] commanders fought with great bravery. Combat soldiers, the army's reservists and civilians have all sacrificed their lives in battles."

Concerning Brig. Gen. Barak Hiram, the statement said that "he is a distinguished, valuable and respected officer who fought bravely during the events of October 7, and he continues to participate in the fighting in the Gaza Strip, risking his life."
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Man, I miss perfect wars
He won. Period.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 11:40 pm This is not "fog of war" crap:

I shouldn't have said "fog" of war. Let's just say "horrors" of war.


...and so, what does that change?

Would the IDF have brought a tank and fired it at that house if it wasn't filled with what they felt was a target worth killing, even alongside innocent Jewish targets?

I am not excusing them of that - but to say that it wasn't the results of the October 7th attacks and (imply) it's simply as horrible as they just naturally find themselves to be? What the hell are you going for here?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Zarathud »

You are delusional, VR.

Comparing yourself to Jews minus the Holocaust? That’s a pretty big damn minus, and one that makes all the difference. Especially when you’re talking about retaliation by a nation that has promised to “never again” allow Jews to be targeted for death. Which is what Hamas did. Full stop.

In no real world will Israel and Palestine make peace until both are tired of the cost of war to both sides — and leader willing to achieve a compromise and overcome their history. It’s not going to be imposed from outside — not by the UN. Or by President Biden. And certainly not from some internet posts by someone random dudes in the U.S., Canada or Indonesia.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Zarathud wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:29 am You are delusional, VR.

Comparing yourself to Jews minus the Holocaust? That’s a pretty big damn minus, and one that makes all the difference. Especially when you’re talking about retaliation by a nation that has promised to “never again” allow Jews to be targeted for death. Which is what Hamas did. Full stop.

In no real world will Israel and Palestine make peace until both are tired of the cost of war to both sides — and leader willing to achieve a compromise and overcome their history. It’s not going to be imposed from outside — not by the UN. Or by President Biden. And certainly not from some internet posts by someone random dudes in the U.S., Canada or Indonesia.
Who are you arguing with? Are you delusional and thought you read about someone here want to impose leaders that are willing to compromise to Israel or Palestine?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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I don’t know how I could be more clear in calling you out, VR. You’ve repeatedly claimed that President Biden could just call Israel to heel with a few stern words and threats. With no Palestinian partner to achieve peace, it all goes nowhere even in your ideal world. There’s simply no one to sit down with.

How do you think Muslim leaders used the extra taxes imposed on the infidels living in their conquests? Not for peaceful intentions.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Zarathud wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 2:15 am I don’t know how I could be more clear in calling you out, VR. You’ve repeatedly claimed that President Biden could just call Israel to heel with a few stern words and threats. With no Palestinian partner to achieve peace, it all goes nowhere even in your ideal world. There’s simply no one to sit down with.
I don't know if Biden can stop Israel or not but I think that Biden can stop supplying weapons to Israel if Biden doesn't want Israel using those weapons to kill Palestinians. I think BIden can at least try to put condition on military aid to Israel if he cares about Gaza civilians.

As for no one to sit down with. That is BS. There is always someone to negotiate with. Or maybe you think Israel killed them all so no one left to negotiate with?
How do you think Muslim leaders used the extra taxes imposed on the infidels living in their conquests? Not for peaceful intentions.
Probably same as what US spend their taxes on.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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VR, you’ve lost me. You are a fool.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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No double standard:

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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

I'm going to state that this is not to try to change your mind. I just read an opinion piece and maybe some of you interested in reading it. Feel free to ignore if you don't like.

I’m Jewish, and I’ve covered wars. I know war crimes when I see them. by Peter Maass.
Spoiler:
I covered the genocide in Bosnia for The Post, wrote a book about it, and reported from Iraq and Afghanistan, among other conflict-ridden countries. Also, my ancestors were key funders of Jewish immigration to British-controlled Palestine. The Warburgs and Schiffs donated millions of dollars to that cause, and during the war between Jews and Arabs that started in 1948, they helped raise vast sums for the new state of Israel. When Golda Meir made an emergency fundraising visit to the United States, one of the philanthropists she met with was an uncle of mine who led the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee.

As Israeli forces grind through Gaza in what the International Court of Justice defines as a “plausible” case of genocide, my family’s history of philanthropy runs into my familiarity with war crimes. When Israel bombs and shoots civilians, blocks food aid, attacks hospitals, and cuts off water supplies, I remember the same outrages in Bosnia. When people in a Gaza flour line were attacked, I thought of the Sarajevans killed waiting in line for bread and the perpetrators who in each case insisted the victims were slaughtered by their own side.

Atrocities tend to rhyme.

When I reported from besieged Sarajevo, I stayed in a hotel that was smack on the front line, with Serbian snipers routinely firing at civilians walking under my window. While exiting or entering the Holiday Inn, sometimes I was the one getting shot at. On a spring day in 1993, I heard the familiar crack and whistle of a sniper’s bullet, followed by an awful scream. I went to my window and saw a wounded civilian trying to crawl to safety. Writing in The Post more than three decades ago, I described the man’s desperate shouts as “a mad howl of a person pushed over the edge. It came from the lungs, from the heart, from the mind.”

I was thinking of Haris Bahtanovic — I tracked him to a nearby hospital the next day — as I watched an agonizing video from Gaza not long ago. The video shows a grandmother, Hala Khreis, trying to leave a neighborhood that Israeli forces are surrounding. Walking tentatively, she holds the hand of her grandson, who is 5 years old and carries a white flag. Suddenly, a shot rings out and she crumples to the ground dead. Sniper rifles have high-powered scopes — the shooters can see who they are shooting. The attacks on Khreis in 2024 and Bahtanovic in 1993 occurred in daytime and were not accidental.

Millions of Jews in America feel connected to Israel’s creation. Maybe our ancestors gave or raised money, maybe they went and fought, maybe they donated to Zionist organizations. What’s a Jew to do now? Everyone makes their own choices, but my experience of war crimes taught me that being Jewish means standing against any nation that commits war crimes.

Any.

I noted in my Bosnia book how being a Jew and seeing an actual genocide made me understand, more than before, the precariousness of minorities and the necessity of speaking out as atrocities emerge. That imperative strengthens if your government abets the crimes or your tribe commits them.

Israel and its supporters contend that what’s happening in Gaza is a legal and righteous response to the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas fighters. It’s evident that war crimes were committed by Hamas: Israelis were shot in their homes at kibbutzim, and concertgoers at the Nova music festival were massacred. We’ve seen the pictures and videos, and though some allegations have turned out to be false, the evidence of brutal crimes is solid. Hamas is still holding more than 100 hostages.

That does not give Israel a pass to respond as it pleases. An eye for an eye — or a hundred eyes for one eye — is not a thing in international law. A key tenet of the laws of warfare is that an attack that endangers civilians must be militarily necessary and any civilian casualties that occur must be proportional to the military gain. What that means, in plainer language, is that you cannot slaughter a lot of civilians for a minor battlefield gain, and you certainly cannot target civilians, as appears to have happened in the killing of Hala Khreis and many other Palestinians. So far, more than 30,000 people have been reported killed in Gaza, most of them civilians, including more than 13,000 children.

The victims of genocide — which Jews were in the Holocaust — are not gifted with the right to perpetrate one. Of course, a war-crimes court should be the arbiter of whether Israel’s actions in Gaza qualify as genocide, but sufficient evidence for indictments appears to exist because the legal definition of genocide is “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.” The key words are “in part.” Holocaust levels of killing are not required to reach the legal standard.

This puts all Americans, not just American Jews, on the spot. The U.S. government is Israel’s principal supporter, by virtue of the bombs and other weapons that continue to be provided to the extremist government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. We are all implicated.

The idea of Jews protecting the rights of Palestinians is not as new as you might think. Before the Holocaust, my ancestors were part of the “non-Zionist” movement that supported Jewish immigration to Palestine but opposed the creation of a Jewish state. The non-Zionist position was based on the concern that a Jewish state would result in violence and reinforce accusations that Jews were not loyal to America.

For example, in the May 21, 1917, edition of the New York Times, a headline reads: “Mr. Schiff Not for Zionism: He Would Establish Jewish Population, Not a Nation, in Palestine.” The story is about my great-great-grandfather Jacob Schiff, the Gilded Age financier who bankrolled efforts to help persecuted Jews flee Europe. The idealistic non-Zionist goal was for the Jews who were settling in Palestine to make a deal with the Arabs already living there that would not give either side complete government control. Two decades later, in 1936, my great-grandfather Felix Warburg, who had married Schiff’s daughter, accurately warned that establishing a Jewish state would lead to “bloody heads and misfortune.”

Jewish settlement continued in Palestine, of course, and the Holocaust accelerated momentum for creating a national homeland there — for which my ancestors dutifully opened their wallets. But there is a largely forgotten history of what then happened in a dissenting corner of America’s Jewish community. As Geoffrey Levin writes in his relevant new book, “Our Palestine Question,” since the founding of Israel “there have been American Jews deeply unsettled by Israeli policies toward both the Palestinian refugees and Arabs living under Israeli rule,” who are fiercely dedicated to the issue.

These dissenting Jews were unsettled by, among other things, the exodus of more than 700,000 Arabs when Israel was established; it’s what Arabs refer to as the Nakba, or “catastrophe.” Israel refused to let these Arabs return to their homes and, over the decades, constructed a repressive apparatus of military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza. Though Levin’s book was published just before the latest convulsion, he astutely noted that “some American Jews today see their support for Palestinian rights as a meaningful expression of their Jewish identity.”

My Jewish identity was always a bit vague because my ancestors were German Jews who assimilated at the speed of cultural sound; when I was growing up, we even had a Christmas tree. (They donated and spent their money at the same pace; the fortune was mostly gone by the time I came of age.) I began to feel more Jewish while covering the genocide of Bosnia’s Muslims. What Levin points to — the defense of Palestinians increasingly being an act of Jewish identity, particularly for younger Jews — feels right for me, too.

It was near Sen. Charles E. Schumer’s home in Brooklyn that I recently saw how this long-ignored movement has found new propulsion. I live a 10-minute walk from the Democratic majority leader’s apartment building, which the New York Police Department barricades whenever a protest approaches. Though Schumer now calls for early elections that might unseat Netanyahu, he supports military aid to Israel and is the highest-ranking elected Jewish official in the United States. Protesters are shunted a few hundred yards away to Prospect Park, and about 100 of them happened to be there when I walked by last month.

Some waved professionally printed, multicolored placards that said “Hands Off Rafah — Stop the Genocide,” and “Ceasefire Now — Let Gaza Live.” But there was also a woman wearing a kaffiyeh around her waist, who held a piece of cardboard with a handwritten message: “Jewish Nurse Against Occupation.” She was protesting not just the killing of civilians but the decades-long military occupation of Palestinian territory, which is the underlying problem.

These protesters are part of a movement that includes Jewish demonstrators who wear T-shirts that say “Not In Our Name.” Their potent voices undermine the argument that all protests against Israeli violence are antisemitic. They help legitimize global opposition to what’s being done in Gaza, and they defend not only Palestinian lives but Jewish lives, too, because they contradict the misbegotten idea that Jews as a whole are to blame for what Israel is doing.

I did not take the activist route after graduating from college. I chose journalism, then wars chose me. Through the years, I realized that exposing war crimes — wherever they occur — is central to my identity as an American, a journalist and a Jew.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 3:30 am No double standard:

Why does that video have a dozen quick-zip edits, in the first ~10 seconds? It doesn't sound edited, but why did they do that to the video? Is that just to make it a little quicker? It was a little weird at first. Like I had to decide if it was spliced together (but it wasn't) to say something he had not said.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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If there is always someone to talk with — who? Who is the voice in Palestine who has a plan that doesn’t involve more war? Simple question.

Should be easy to provide a name, not opinions. And certainly not another stupid propaganda YouTube video.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

Just an aside. I would think it makes perfect sense for a country to treat its friends and allies with a standard that isn't identical to the standard it treats its enemies. Kinda absurd to ask that and I understand why he must say there isn't a double standard - but of course there is on some level. We are allies with countries for reasons and we are enemies with countries for reasons, and I would think those reasons would certainly dictate treating one group one way, and the other group another way - given otherwise identical situations/contexts.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 4:28 am I'm going to state that this is not to try to change your mind. I just read an opinion piece and maybe some of you interested in reading it. Feel free to ignore if you don't like.

I’m Jewish, and I’ve covered wars. I know war crimes when I see them. by Peter Maass.
Thank you for posting this.

Equal rights for all, not just in law, but in reality, should be a goal, even if it seems currently as obtainable as a peaceful solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Accountability for all, regardless of whether they're our allies or our enemies, should also be the goal. War crimes have occurred, and are occurring. Try everyone in The Hague, even in absentia if need be, and if they're found guilty, sanction them, and make it impossible to travel beyond the country in which they live lest they risk imprisonment. If Israel think that crosses some sort of red line (as two members of the Israeli cabinet complained), tough cookies. As the author of the article notes, an eye for an eye - or a hundred eyes for one eye - is not a thing in international law.
Last edited by Dogstar on Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Zarathud wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:39 am If there is always someone to talk with — who? Who is the voice in Palestine who has a plan that doesn’t involve more war? Simple question.

Should be easy to provide a name, not opinions. And certainly not another stupid propaganda YouTube video.
Mahmoud Abbas? Ismail Haniyeh?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Unagi wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:07 am Just an aside. I would think it makes perfect sense for a country to treat its friends and allies with a standard that isn't identical to the standard it treats its enemies. Kinda absurd to ask that and I understand why he must say there isn't a double standard - but of course there is on some level. We are allies with countries for reasons and we are enemies with countries for reasons, and I would think those reasons would certainly dictate treating one group one way, and the other group another way - given otherwise identical situations/contexts.
That means US doesn't really care about human rights violation or war crimes by other countries?

Only using those to attack enemies of US?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:40 am
Unagi wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:07 am Just an aside. I would think it makes perfect sense for a country to treat its friends and allies with a standard that isn't identical to the standard it treats its enemies. Kinda absurd to ask that and I understand why he must say there isn't a double standard - but of course there is on some level. We are allies with countries for reasons and we are enemies with countries for reasons, and I would think those reasons would certainly dictate treating one group one way, and the other group another way - given otherwise identical situations/contexts.
That means US doesn't really care about human rights violation or war crimes by other countries?

Only using those to attack enemies of US?
Oh please - shut the fuck up already.

It means that if a person with no history of stealing from you has something of yours - it may not have been an attempt to rob you... but if you know someone that always takes things, you can assume they took your item with an intent to keep it.


What is wrong with you? You take what I say, and immediately connect it to "US doesn't really care about human rights violations".
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Unagi wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:49 am
Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:40 am
Unagi wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:07 am Just an aside. I would think it makes perfect sense for a country to treat its friends and allies with a standard that isn't identical to the standard it treats its enemies. Kinda absurd to ask that and I understand why he must say there isn't a double standard - but of course there is on some level. We are allies with countries for reasons and we are enemies with countries for reasons, and I would think those reasons would certainly dictate treating one group one way, and the other group another way - given otherwise identical situations/contexts.
That means US doesn't really care about human rights violation or war crimes by other countries?

Only using those to attack enemies of US?
Oh please - shut the fuck up already.

It means that if a person with no history of stealing from you has something of yours - it may not have been an attempt to rob you... but if you know someone that always takes things, you can assume they took your item with an intent to keep it.


What is wrong with you? You take what I say, and immediately connect it to "US doesn't really care about human rights violations".
I meant if you treat human rights violation or war crimes differently depend on if it is an enemy or an ally. Does that show that you really care about human rights violation or war crimes?

Actual example:

To deal with terrorist attacks, China put a muslim population in reeducation camp. US: China is committing human rights violation and ethnic cleansing.

To deal with terrorist attacks. Israel treat Palestinians with collective punishment and bombed the hell of Gaza with over 30000 killed. US: We don't see any evidence that Israel broke any international law.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

yeah, I guess you are right.

We don't care about human rights violations.
You've convinced me.
:roll:
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Dogstar »

VR does cite two instances where the US is slow to act, if it acts at all.

Example: SoS Blinken has taken his time designating units which Israeli units might be sanctioned for human rights violations despite the State Department panel making its recommendation months ago. One wonders if that decision would have been slow-walked if the units in question were in Honduras or Peru.

Example: The US had imposed sanctions on items and companies in the Xinjiang region where the Uyghurs have been put into camps, and the US has accused China of committing genocide. Yet that has remarkably limited effect on US-China commerce, because no one here really wants China to stop buying US securities, selling rare earth materials, cutting off the markets to its consumers, or engaging in international trade with the US. We care about genocide but not enough to disrupt the world economy or our own. I think most Western countries have the same policy.

I can talk about morals and goals as I've done earlier, but the reality is, despite what we talk about on this message board, that that's simply not how governments operate on the international scene.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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I appreciate you taking the time to color in some of the nuances - and I agree with the things you said.

I'm frustrated that the US hasn't done more or can't do more or doesn't try to do more. I'm not then brought to the conclusion that we, as a nation, don't care about human rights violations - as VR seems to easily leap to.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by hepcat »

Dogstar wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 10:19 am I can talk about morals and goals as I've done earlier, but the reality is, despite what we talk about on this message board, that that's simply not how governments operate on the international scene.
Sadly, this is true of every nation that has ever existed. It's the degree of it that matters in the end.
He won. Period.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Zarathud »

Abbas who is ineffectual, unpopular and like Netanyahu clinging to power while sitting on the sidelines? Guardian article dated 3/7/2924.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Isgrimnur »

Zarathud wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 12:16 pm Guardian article dated 3/7/2924.
Borrowed the time machine, did you?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

Crap. What have you done, Zarathud?

You don't just 'share an article from the future' without totally screwing up the timeline. What were you thinking?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Zarathud »

Shown the inevitable, and blown my cover. It’s time to activate the Space Lasers.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
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“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
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LordMortis
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by LordMortis »

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GreenGoo
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by GreenGoo »

Wow, I had never seen that one. It is terrible :D

They can't all be homeruns, I guess.
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Dogstar
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Dogstar »

I mean, if Abbas is still hanging on to power 900 years from now, I think he’s probably the guy we want to talk to.


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MIDWAY upon the journey of our life, I found myself within a dark forest, For the straightforward pathway had been lost. - Dante Alighieri
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hepcat
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by hepcat »

Dogstar wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 2:17 pm I mean, if Abbas is still hanging on to power 900 years from now, I think he’s probably the guy we want to talk to.


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Well....him or the Kurgan
He won. Period.
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Victoria Raverna
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Zarathud wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 12:16 pm Abbas who is ineffectual, unpopular and like Netanyahu clinging to power while sitting on the sidelines? Guardian article dated 3/7/2924.
You asked for me to give you names. And I gave you two. Like it or not, Abbas is still the leader of PA. Abbas is also moderate and long supported peace with Israel.

You said that no one can impose a 'better' leader to both Israel or Palestinians. So work with what is available.
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Holman
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Holman »

My understanding is that Abbas and the Palestinian Authority have no influence whatsoever.

If he wants peace, that's great. But he has no ability to rein in Hamas.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
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waitingtoconnect
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by waitingtoconnect »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:41 pm
Zarathud wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 12:16 pm Abbas who is ineffectual, unpopular and like Netanyahu clinging to power while sitting on the sidelines? Guardian article dated 3/7/2924.
You asked for me to give you names. And I gave you two. Like it or not, Abbas is still the leader of PA. Abbas is also moderate and long supported peace with Israel.

You said that no one can impose a 'better' leader to both Israel or Palestinians. So work with what is available.
Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah hold sway over the peace process now. Which plays into the war camp in Israel. Both of these sides want a one state solution; namely where the other does not exist.

Peace is unlikely in the foreseeable future.

When it comes to how the public feels in general (and our media) the British classic Yes Prime Minister

From the episode: A REAL PARTNERSHIP
"There was nothing wrong with appeasement. All that World War Two achieved after six years was to leave Eastern Europe under a Communist dictatorship instead of a Fascist dictatorship. That's what comes of not listening to the Foreign Office."

"Britain should always be on the side of law and justice, so long as we don't allow it to affect our foreign policy."

"Diplomacy is about surviving to the next century. Politics is about surviving until Friday afternoon."

"The public aren't interested in foreign affairs. All they want to know is who are the goodies and who are the baddies."
And this leads to strategies like this one being used by the powers that be to placate those forces.



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Zarathud
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Zarathud »

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Zarathud wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 12:16 pm Abbas who is ineffectual, unpopular and like Netanyahu clinging to power while sitting on the sidelines? Guardian article dated 3/7/2924.
You asked for me to give you names. And I gave you two. Like it or not, Abbas is still the leader of PA. Abbas is also moderate and long supported peace with Israel.

You said that no one can impose a 'better' leader to both Israel or Palestinians. So work with what is available.
It shouldn’t take a post from the future to know you were set up by that question.

Or that your response will be used against your internet activism that peace is easy. You can’t impose a “better” U.S. leader than President Biden, either.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
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Victoria Raverna
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Holman wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:51 pm My understanding is that Abbas and the Palestinian Authority have no influence whatsoever.

If he wants peace, that's great. But he has no ability to rein in Hamas.
That is why I gave two names. Since Palestinians have two factions, for real peace, Israel need to deal with both.

One good way for Israel to do if Israel want a real peace is to help PA. Show Hamas that peace with Israel is good for Palestinians. Building more settlers, attacking Palestinians at West Bank are doing the opposite of that.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by hepcat »

They should be dealing with Iran, as that’s the real power behind Hamas. And let’s be realistic: Abbas has about as much power in the Middle East as Lauren Boebert has in the Middle East.

Different topic: they had a rep from the Columbia University student protests on NPR this morning. She was asked repeatedly about the reports of antisemitic chants at the protests. She would only respond “I’m not here to talk about that.”. I got the sense that Jewish students are in actual danger from these people at that school.
He won. Period.
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Zarathud
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Zarathud »

Not a man of peace or negotiation. Israel will likely deal with the leader of Hamas Ismail Haniyeh in the same manner Hamas chose to deal with Israeli civilians.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Blackhawk »

And, catching up on two pages of this thread...

Holy batshit, Fatman! They've lost their marbles!
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