Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[Zarathud]

President Biden can’t get any credit from VR even after doing what they said was necessary.

[hepcat]

I’ve decided that Lithuania hasn’t done enough to reel in Netanyahu as well. I’m therefore putting them on notice.

[Victoria Raverna]

This is a bit funny to me, but I guess Israel managed to change the world that now Nicaragua can do this:

https://www.reuters.com/world/nicaragua ... 024-04-08/

Nicaragua asked the International Court of Justice on Monday to order Germany to halt military arms exports to Israel and to resume its funding of U.N. Palestinian refugee agency UNRWA, saying there is a serious risk of genocide in Gaza.
Nicaragua's agent ambassador Carlos Jose Arguello Gomez told the court Berlin had violated the 1948 Genocide Convention by continuing to supply Israel with arms after ICJ judges ruled it was plausible that Israel violated some rights guaranteed under the genocide convention during its assault on Gaza.
"There can be no question that Germany (...)was well aware, and is well aware, of at least the serious risk of genocide being committed," in the Gaza strip, Arguello Gomez said.
He told the judges that Berlin was ignoring its obligations under international law by continuing to provide military assistance to Israel.
"This has got to stop," Arguello Gomez said.

[waitingtoconnect]

I’ve decided that Lithuania hasn’t done enough to reel in Netanyahu as well. I’m therefore putting them on notice.

The Latvians and Estonians as well. We should just let Putin beat them up.

President Biden can’t get any credit from VR even after doing what they said was necessary.

I think a lot of people are cynical that this will be another slap on the wrist for Israel and Bibi with no real repercussions. Biden needs to prove people wrong.

[Blackhawk]

President Biden can’t get any credit from VR even after doing what they said was necessary.

And any actual response will just be rationalized out of existence.

[Victoria Raverna]

Maybe this is not going to offend anyone here:

[hepcat]

The whataboutism arguments bringing up American support for Ukraine as an attempt to paint Biden as a hypocrite misses some important fact: Ukraine doesn’t have a long history of attacking Russia with daily missile barrages, nor did it attack Russian territory prior to the invasion of Ukraine and kill hundreds of civilians while taking hostages as well.

I’m not justifying the continued siege by Israel. But I do think it’s unfair to try and compare the two wars. Especially in the context you use.

[Victoria Raverna]

Not my context. It was Jon Stewart's. I guess Jon Stewart is not fair now that he criticize Democrats instead of Republicans.

[hepcat]

You are posting these with a goal to paint Biden as horrible. That’s the context you’ve repeatedly admitted to using. This is just a continuation of that. But on this one, you and Stewart are leaving out important facts in your attempts to compare Biden’s responses to Gaza and Ukraine.

And again: folks here who disagree with you are not supporting Israel’s continued siege. I feel that needs to be an addendum at all times for the sake of some.

[Victoria Raverna]

You are posting these with a goal to paint Biden as horrible. That’s the context you’ve repeatedly admitted to using. This is just a continuation of that. But on this one, you and Stewart are leaving out important facts in your attempts to compare Biden’s responses to Gaza and Ukraine.

And again: folks here who disagree with you are not supporting Israel’s continued siege. I feel that needs to be an addendum at all times for the sake of some.

Actually no. I just watched that video from youtube and decided to share it here because it is funny and it is about Israel-US relation.

I'm giving up on trying to make Biden's supporters here admit that Biden can be wrong. I guess maybe it'll be easier when it is not before the election. Maybe after the election result, it'll be easier to criticize Biden since you guys seem to afraid to say any bad thing about Biden because Trump is worse. Criticizing Biden = Helping Trump to you.

[Dogstar]

I think Stewart is dead on when he talks about the principles we're willing to stand strongly for. While I understand the rocket attacks and their history have to be factored in, I don't think that anyone here would argue that restricting food aid into an area packed with civilians is something we should just be "concerned" about; it's reprehensible. Rubber-stamping an AI target list whose subjects are then eliminated by bombs is something that was a Marvel villain plot, and yet it's met with surprisingly little condemnation or acknowledgement, either by official US statements or otherwise. I could go on, but that's been the past 70 pages of this thread.

I think Stewart is wrong though when he talks about who were most concerned about not offending. Yes, Israel, because minimal influence and leverage is better than none at all, both for Palestinian civilians and Middle East tensions. However, I think the Biden administration is most understandably worried about offending moderates and one-issue voters here in the United States for whom support for Israel is a very important issue. Threading this needle without losing too many young or Muslim voters is incredibly tough. I know that's a cynical take, but I think it's where we're at at this point.

We are hypocrites when it comes to purely principles and the differences in our responses in Ukraine and Israel, but that's international politics for you. If China wasn't the 800-lb. gorilla in the Western Pacific/East Asia, do you think we would refrain from full recognition of Taiwan? The U.S., as do probably others, approaches each situation differently and definitely not strictly on a values/principles basis. There are a thousand different factors -- politically, economically, internationally, historically, and so on. This isn't TV. Rarely does anyone get to feel completely good about things at the end of the day, if they feel good at all.

[YellowKing]

I'm giving up on trying to make Biden's supporters here admit that Biden can be wrong.

I don't think it's a matter of being unable to criticize Biden. We're just recognizing the realities of the situation, and not viewing everything through the lens of a child's black and white view of the world. You're wanting simple answers and simple reactions to a very complex situation.

[Carpet_pissr]

Biden could and should have applied more pressure sooner IMO.

And not just my opinion, apparently the internal criticism from State is as bad as it was when we invaded Iraq (which apparently was a high water mark).

[Zarathud]

Not my context. It was Jon Stewart's. I guess Jon Stewart is not fair now that he criticize Democrats instead of Republicans.

Jon Stewart is a professional comedian who gets paid for his criticism. Fairness is less important than the joke, and he’d admit that.

What’s your excuse?

[LordMortis]

I'm giving up on trying to make Biden's supporters here admit that Biden can be wrong. I guess maybe it'll be easier when it is not before the election. Maybe after the election result, it'll be easier to criticize Biden since you guys seem to afraid to say any bad thing about Biden because Trump is worse. Criticizing Biden = Helping Trump to you.

I don't think it's not admitting Biden is wrong, so much as accepting how bad things are, probably to the point of defeatism and accepting brutal violence of injustice to point of embracing it in your eyes. Sometimes rightfully so, IMO.

[hepcat]

Biden could and should have applied more pressure sooner IMO.

But I think the issue most of us have with VR's posts is that they've turned into continued attempts to seemingly hang the war around Biden's neck almost to the point of forgetting everyone else involved. They've become a constant barrage that ignores numerous reasonable replies pointing out that Biden HAS tried, but that he's limited in what he can do. And any time he DOES do something that tries to rein in Netanyahu, it's not met with "about time!" from VR, but rather another barrage of videos insinuating that Biden is owned and controlled by Israel, or that he hates Muslims or something.

We criticize Biden in other threads....and even here, as your post shows. And yes, we criticize Trump even more...we ridicule him, quite often. But that's because Trump invites that kind of response with his behavior.

Do I want Biden to do more? Sure. But I also don't believe he's doing nothing. I also think he's in a tricky situation that one wrong step could cause to explode into an even worse situation. At the same time, he has to deal with Iran and their proxies that want this war to turn into a war against the west.

All we continually ask of VR is that they recognize that Biden can't end this war with a single phone call. No world leader can. I wish it were that simple. That black and white. But it is not.

Also, I may be wrong, but I think VR's heavier Biden critiques started after people pushed back against a post they made about American Muslims refusing to support Biden in 2024 because of what's happening. We pointed out that the alternative would be FAR worse for the Palestinians. And I still believe that to be 100 percent true.

[Pyperkub]

Biden could and should have applied more pressure sooner IMO.

And not just my opinion, apparently the internal criticism from State is as bad as it was when we invaded Iraq (which apparently was a high water mark).

And Netanyahu just goes all-in on the GOP and Trump. He's already 90% of the way there. Additionally, the consequences of shutting Israel off appear far worse than where things are now - that balancing act to maintain anything not resembling all out war in the region with massive escalation is a huge part of the calculation.

An example:

While Iran says it has no plans to make nuclear weapons, it now has a supply of highly enriched uranium that could be converted to weapons-grade fuel for at least three bombs in a time frame ranging from a few days to a few weeks, current and former officials said. The making of a crude nuclear device could follow in as little as six months after a decision is made, while overcoming the challenges of building a nuclear warhead deliverable by a missile would take longer, perhaps two years or more, the officials said.

Iran recently has sought to dilute some of its highly enriched uranium, signaling, in the view of U.S. officials, that it is seeking to avoid a conflict by self-imposing limits on its supply of near-weapons-grade fuel. But Fordow’s machines are making highly enriched uranium at a faster rate than ever before, and the country’s combined stocks of uranium fuel continue to increase, records show. The trend is unmistakable...

Israel’s military and spy services have a long history of covert action to slow Iran’s nuclear progress, from assassinations of Iranian scientists to cyberattacks on nuclear facilities, including the cyber-sabotage operations known as Stuxnet. Emerging evidence of an Iranian nuclear breakout effort could trigger Israeli airstrikes on Tehran’s nuclear facilities. A retaliatory salvo from Iran’s increasingly sophisticated missile or drone fleet could spark a wider Middle Eastern war.

The specter of a nuclear-capable Iran could also prompt other countries in the region — including Saudi Arabia and Turkey — to reconsider their security choices. Grossi, in the interview, warned of the potential for a destabilizing “domino effect.”

[Carpet_pissr]

Biden could and should have applied more pressure sooner IMO.

But I think the issue most of us have with VR's posts is that they've turned into continued attempts to seemingly hang the war around Biden's neck almost to the point of forgetting everyone else involved. They've become a constant barrage that ignores numerous reasonable replies pointing out that Biden HAS tried, but that he's limited in what he can do. And any time he DOES do something that tries to rein in Netanyahu, it's not met with "about time!" from VR, but rather another barrage of videos insinuating that Biden is owned and controlled by Israel, or that he hates Muslims or something.

We criticize Biden in other threads....and even here, as your post shows. And yes, we criticize Trump even more...we ridicule him, quite often. But that's because Trump invites that kind of response with his behavior.

Do I want Biden to do more? Sure. But I also don't believe he's doing nothing. I also think he's in a tricky situation that one wrong step could cause to explode into an even worse situation. At the same time, he has to deal with Iran and their proxies that want this war to turn into a war against the west.

All we continually ask of VR is that they recognize that Biden can't end this war with a single phone call. No world leader can. I wish it were that simple. That black and white. But it is not.

Also, I may be wrong, but I think VR's heavier Biden critiques started after people pushed back against a post they made about American Muslims refusing to support Biden in 2024 because of what's happening. We pointed out that the alternative would be FAR worse for the Palestinians. And I still believe that to be 100 percent true.

My post wasn't really VR related, but since you mention it, for me personally, it's mostly the delivery. I'm just never going to click on a video, from *anyone*, without any context or description - especially when they are delivered rapid-fire. It's tiresome. I'm honestly not sure what his end goal is, but I would recommend a different approach. And this coming from someone that I THINK is on the same page as VR on this issue for the most part (we should have pushed against Netanyahu earlier, and harder).

The thing is, I THINK (I haven't read all the posts here, it just got too...mired after a while) most here agree with that last part, but I could be wrong. Maybe there's one person that disagrees? Is VR targeting that one person? 100% board compliance or the blitz continues? IF that is true, and we mostly agree with that statement, why the barrage? No snark there...serious question (rare for me, I know!!).

[Unagi]

And this coming from someone that I THINK is on the same page as VR on this issue for the most part (we should have pushed against Netanyahu earlier, and harder).

The thing is, I THINK (I haven't read all the posts here, it just got too...mired after a while) most here agree with that last part, but I could be wrong. Maybe there's one person that disagrees? Is VR targeting that one person? 100% board compliance or the blitz continues? IF that is true, and we mostly agree with that statement, why the barrage? No snark there...serious question (rare for me, I know!!).

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

I don't even think there really is anyone here that has a strong disagreement with that (we should have pushed against Netanyahu earlier, and harder).

--
@VR
So, why the barrage, VR?


I mean, it's one thing if it was just angst... and you were sharing news and being frustrated, but you aren't doing that.

[Alefroth]

I'm giving up on trying to make Biden's supporters here admit that Biden can be wrong.

That's a great idea since you can't ever see when Biden supporters say he can be wrong.

[hepcat]

I'm just never going to click on a video, from *anyone*, without any context or description -

In my defense, if I'd labelled that link I sent you that you're OBVIOUSLY referring to as "Hepcat in chaps trying to play pickleball", you'd NEVER have watched it.

[Carpet_pissr]

Joke’s on you, I totally would have.

Speaking of, anyone remember where that link is that showed a pic of everyone on OO? I’ve forgotten what most of you look like, wearing chaps or sans.

[Pyperkub]

Escalation and Expansion appear inevitable

The United States believes Iran may retaliate against Israel in coming days, according to two sources familiar with intelligence on the matter.

The intelligence that Iran could use drones and missiles to attack "regional assets" by Israel has been shared with U.S. lawmakers.

[hepcat]

The worst thing that could happen in Iran’s eyes is a ceasefire. Their government would hurl Palestinian children into the fire themselves if it meant making Israel, and by extension the west, an enemy of all of the Middle East. They’re going to do everything in their power to stoke the flames.

[Victoria Raverna]

But isn't that going to make the west more sided with Israel if Iran is more involved? Also Sunni countries like Saudi are going to be more conflicted in their support for Palestinians if Iran is more involved?

[Victoria Raverna]

There was a news came out that Iran promised to not retaliate if there is a ceasefire but US denied that offer was real.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-795866

The US denied reports that Iran had informed the US that it would refrain from responding to the airstrike in which senior Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) commanders were killed in Damascus if a ceasefire in Gaza is reached,

On Sunday, Jadeh Iran cited an anonymous Arab diplomatic source as saying that Iran had made such an offer, noting that the source spoke to the news outlet two days ago. The source added that "If America succeeds in containing the situation, it will be a great success for the Biden administration and we can build on that."

"I can tell you that those reports are not true; they have not sent that message," said US State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller on Monday. "But if Iran wants a ceasefire in Gaza, that ought to be something that they can accomplish because they have long supported Hamas, and they could press Hamas that they should accept the deal that is on the table that would achieve a ceasefire."

The report came as negotiations for a ceasefire and hostage release deal resume between Israel and Hamas in Cairo and as Israel continues preparations for a possible response to the Damascus airstrike that Syria and Iran blamed on Israel.

The airstrike targeted the Iranian consulate in Damascus last Monday, killing IRGC commander Mohammad Reza Zahedi - the main Iranian official responsible for operations in Syria and Lebanon - as well as his deputy and several other IRGC officers.

I find this part interesting:

"But if Iran wants a ceasefire in Gaza, that ought to be something that they can accomplish because they have long supported Hamas, and they could press Hamas that they should accept the deal that is on the table that would achieve a ceasefire."

Apparently Miller think since Iran has long supported Hamas, they can get Hamas to accept the deal.

I guess it is fair to think that since US has long supported Israel, US should also be able to get Israel to accept a ceasefire deal? Too simple way of thinking?

[hepcat]

Your own country has long recognized Hamas and not Israel, and they haven’t been able to get hostages freed or prevent attacks. I say this not to be inflammatory, but to point out that if countries that support Hamas can’t stop what is essentially a terrorist organization, what makes you think it’s easy to rein in a sovereign nation that’s much more powerful?

[Victoria Raverna]

Your own country has long recognized Hamas and not Israel, and they haven’t been able to get hostages freed or prevent attacks. I say this not to be inflammatory, but to point out that if countries that support Hamas can’t stop what is essentially a terrorist organization, what makes you think it’s easy to rein in a sovereign nation that’s much more powerful?

Then I guess you don't agree with Miller's statement.

[hepcat]

I doubt Iran can make Hamas agree to a ceasefire because I highly doubt Iran wants a ceasefire. That’s the gist of Miller’s statement.

[Victoria Raverna]

I doubt Iran can make Hamas agree to a ceasefire because I highly doubt Iran wants a ceasefire. That’s the gist of Miller’s statement.

Can we also say the same about US? We doubt US can make Israel agree to a ceasefire because we highly doubt US wants a ceasefire?

[Blackhawk]

Not my context. It was Jon Stewart's. I guess Jon Stewart is not fair now that he criticize Democrats instead of Republicans.

What was your goal with that? Because it seems to me that it's either to try and 'put us in our place' or to pick a fight. It certainly doesn't further your argument.

And if you are going to keep saying that we refuse to criticize Biden, you obviously haven't been paying attention to any of the other threads in this forum.

[Kraken]

I doubt Iran can make Hamas agree to a ceasefire because I highly doubt Iran wants a ceasefire. That’s the gist of Miller’s statement.

Can we also say the same about US? We doubt US can make Israel agree to a ceasefire because we highly doubt US wants a ceasefire?

No.

[waitingtoconnect]

The Middle East is insanely complicated mostly because the region hasn’t fully processed the end of the Ottoman Empire.

Basically we have four main players all of whom hate each others guts: Israel, the saudis, turkey and Iran.

[hepcat]

I doubt Iran can make Hamas agree to a ceasefire because I highly doubt Iran wants a ceasefire. That’s the gist of Miller’s statement.

Can we also say the same about US? We doubt US can make Israel agree to a ceasefire because we highly doubt US wants a ceasefire?

You're right. We want this war to continue because an unstable Middle East is EXACTLY what we need for our evil plans to dominate the world and turn everyone in that region into Taylor Swift fans.

I'm being sarcastic because you're being ridiculous. Of course we want a ceasefire. Biden has also said as much NUMEROUS TIMES.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

The thing you repeatedly and deliberately ignore in your attempt to portray America as complicit in this war is that ISRAEL IS A SOVEREIGN NATION. We don't OWN Israel (although you swing between thinking we own Israel and thinking Israel owns us, if I recall). If we did control Israel like you believe we do, don't you think ANY of the numerous attempts America has been in to try and broker a deal between Israel and Palestinians would have bore fruit by now? We can try to sway them, but at the end of the day, we can't make them do anything they don't want to do. Netanyahu is hanging on for dear life right now and this is his lifeline, I believe. So why the hell are you continually trying to blame America for this war now? I mean, come on. At some point, it just gets exasperating. Indonesia refuses to establish diplomatic ties with Israel, yet has them with Hamas. Does that mean that because Indonesia hasn't stopped this war, that you're a part of a country that supports terrorists?*

*Of course, I don't believe that because I understand that they can't, just as America can't make a ceasefire appear just by calling for it repeatedly.

[Victoria Raverna]

I just find it funny that US which was against ceasefire repeatedly including veto it three times means US supported a ceasefire.













But Iran that stated repeatedly that they wanted a ceasefire mean that they didn't want a ceasefire.

[hepcat]

One has a history of trying to broker peace deals in the Middle East (even if sometimes those deals get tripped up by matters of national safety/interests), the other has a history of calling for the complete annihilation of other nations and death to all Jews. Which do you choose to trust or believe?

[Carpet_pissr]

I think VR picked up on a statement that I wonder if Miller would be embarrassed by if he thought about it in the US context. However, as mentioned, Israel is a sovereign nation...not only that but in this particular time, led by a Trump-like figure...so there seems to be a "fuck you, world!" emanating from Israeli leadership.

That makes me think that our current influence on Israel is not what we thought it was before this started, or we underestimated the extent to which Netanyahu doesn't give a shit what previous friends and allies think about their actions.

To summarize:
US possibly assumed Israel was such a close friend and ally that they would do whatever we asked
This is not CURRENTLY the case, with the Trumpyahu in charge
Trumpyahu either uses our miscalculation on the relationship to buy them time to finish their nasty deeds, or simply tells us to piss off anytime Biden raises a very shaky, wrinkled finger to object.
We seem to be spending a lot of time trying to process that our so-called friend just told us to fuck off. Punch drunk.

This...theory of mine is one reason I make an effort to separate "Netanyahu" from "Israel", maybe in the same way that I hoped others would separate "Trump" from "The US" when he was in office.

[hepcat]

Hell, I separate Trump from Humanity.

[Unagi]

I just find it funny that US which was against ceasefire repeatedly including veto it three times means US supported a ceasefire.
<snip>

But Iran that stated repeatedly that they wanted a ceasefire mean that they didn't want a ceasefire.

Honestly - what the hell?
You just dumped 6 more videos on everyone.

I swear you said you were done. I must have imagined that.

Your method of communication is not finding the traction you imagine it is.

[hepcat]

I feel like we should just all leave this thread and let VR scream into the void from now on. That or just admit that the United States is an evil empire and that we're all out to get his Lucky Charms.