Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Blackhawk
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Blackhawk »

UsulofDoom wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 11:15 pm

It was not just October 7th but over a decade of terror and missile attacks.
At what point do terror missile attacks justify bombing hospitals and refugee camps while denying medical supplies and food to civilians?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

UsulofDoom wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 11:15 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:08 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:11 pm
UsulofDoom wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:02 pm 68 U.S. civilians were killed during the attack on Pearl Harbor. March 9 to March 10, 1945, American aircraft dropped incendiary bombs over Tokyo. Since most of the buildings were made of wood, the city essentially burned to the ground. Conservative estimates assert that 80 000 Japanese civilians were killed, with others positing that over 100,000 people died.

War can suck for those that start it.
While that is certainly true, I think many would hope we would hold ourselves and our allies to higher standards of decency and humanity (even in times of war) than were exhibited by many nations during World War II.
Also, 3+ years of world fucking war. It wasn't one step from Pearl Harbor to fire bombing Tokyo.
It was not just October 7th but over a decade of terror and missile attacks.
The Palestine can also justify Hamas attacks as fighting against over 7 decades of occupation on their lands.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Alefroth wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 11:38 pm
UsulofDoom wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 11:15 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:08 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:11 pm
UsulofDoom wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:02 pm 68 U.S. civilians were killed during the attack on Pearl Harbor. March 9 to March 10, 1945, American aircraft dropped incendiary bombs over Tokyo. Since most of the buildings were made of wood, the city essentially burned to the ground. Conservative estimates assert that 80 000 Japanese civilians were killed, with others positing that over 100,000 people died.

War can suck for those that start it.
While that is certainly true, I think many would hope we would hold ourselves and our allies to higher standards of decency and humanity (even in times of war) than were exhibited by many nations during World War II.
Also, 3+ years of world fucking war. It wasn't one step from Pearl Harbor to fire bombing Tokyo.
It was not just October 7th but over a decade of terror and missile attacks.
Are you excusing Israel's response?
Isn't it very obvious? Why still need to ask?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Freyland »

Because they can't bring themselves to say it.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Zarathud »

War sucks. We are seeing in real time its horrors.

Those decades of rocket attacks are a context, not a justification.

Is Israel fighting smart or to limit civilian casualties? Definitely no. But no one aware of Israel’s approach to war and deterrence should have expected them to be better, especially from Netanyahu.

I have argued this is a fully intended and foreseeable consequence for Hamas. Hamas knows Israel will continue to attack as long as they keep the hostages, and will not agree to a cease fire that’s on the table. They’re complicit as peace requires both sides to participate.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by LawBeefaroni »

UsulofDoom wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 11:15 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:08 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:11 pm
UsulofDoom wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:02 pm 68 U.S. civilians were killed during the attack on Pearl Harbor. March 9 to March 10, 1945, American aircraft dropped incendiary bombs over Tokyo. Since most of the buildings were made of wood, the city essentially burned to the ground. Conservative estimates assert that 80 000 Japanese civilians were killed, with others positing that over 100,000 people died.

War can suck for those that start it.
While that is certainly true, I think many would hope we would hold ourselves and our allies to higher standards of decency and humanity (even in times of war) than were exhibited by many nations during World War II.
Also, 3+ years of world fucking war. It wasn't one step from Pearl Harbor to fire bombing Tokyo.
It was not just October 7th but over a decade of terror and missile attacks.
So why pick Pearl Harbor and not decades of Japanese imperialism and its alignment with the Axis?

Agree with your point that wars are hell. But very few start only due to one incident. It's almost always decades of simmering tension or political machinations.

Not arguing the point, just the metaphor. The US didn't firebomb Tokyo because 68 civilians were killed at Pearl Harbor. The US did, however, accept causing massive civilian casualties to end a larger conflict that had already killed dozens of millions of civilians.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Exodor »

Biden to propose a plan to setup a temporary port to allow aid into Gaza.
U.S. President Joe Biden will announce a plan Thursday for the U.S. military to help establish a temporary port on the Gaza coast to increase the flow of aid into the territory during the Israel-Hamas war, according to senior administration officials.

Don't really love the idea of putting US troops on the ground in Gaza.

The U.S. officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to preview Biden’s announcement before his State of the Union speech, said the planned operation will not require American troops on the ground to build the pier that is intended to allow more shipments of food, medicine and other essential items.
Make up your mind, AP.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Alefroth »

Why do people keep saying war sucks as if it's some revelation?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Alefroth wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 3:41 pm Why do people keep saying war sucks as if it's some revelation?
Probably because people (not necessarily here) need to be reminded. There is a lot of naivete and unrealistic expectations that war is clean and civilian casualties should not be expected.

Around this specific conflict, that only Hamas and IDF would suffer losses.

Civilians always bear the brunt.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Holman »



It's long past time to decisively break with Netanyahu. Affirm support for Israel's existence but condemn this government's conduct in Gaza. This would be not only a political winner but also the morally right thing to do.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

Totally agree.

And I will say, alternately Biden will be making a very grave mistake if he lets his Red Line be crossed without major consequences.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Kurth »

The idea that breaking with Israel - even one led by Netanyahu and his rightwing assholes - is a clear political winner in the US is highly questionable in my opinion.

That’s not a reason not to do it, but I don’t think it’s nearly as clear cut as Unagi and Holman above. Not nearly.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Holman »

Kurth wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 7:00 pm The idea that breaking with Israel - even one led by Netanyahu and his rightwing assholes - is a clear political winner in the US is highly questionable in my opinion.

That’s not a reason not to do it, but I don’t think it’s nearly as clear cut as Unagi and Holman above. Not nearly.
It's totally possible to condemn Netanyahu and his government's conduct without "breaking with Israel." Consider that a majority of Americans dislike the IDF's Gaza behavior while still supporting Israel's right to exist.

Netanyahu and his government are behaving atrociously. That should be enough to lead to condemnation.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Kurth »

Holman wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 7:51 pm
Kurth wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 7:00 pm The idea that breaking with Israel - even one led by Netanyahu and his rightwing assholes - is a clear political winner in the US is highly questionable in my opinion.

That’s not a reason not to do it, but I don’t think it’s nearly as clear cut as Unagi and Holman above. Not nearly.
It's totally possible to condemn Netanyahu and his government's conduct without "breaking with Israel." Consider that a majority of Americans dislike the IDF's Gaza behavior while still supporting Israel's right to exist.

Netanyahu and his government are behaving atrociously. That should be enough to lead to condemnation.
I hear what you’re saying and don’t disagree, except that I think you’re talking about what should be possible and not about what actually is possible in this political climate.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Kraken »

What are Biden's options? A UN rebuke? It seems like his red line is pale pink at most, and maybe not there at all.
In an MSNBC interview Saturday, Biden said he was against further fighting in Rafah and called an invasion of the area a “red line” — but then quickly backtracked to say there was no red line.

“It is a red line, but I’m never going to leave Israel,” Biden said. “The defense of Israel is still critical. So there’s no red line [in which] I’m going to cut off all weapons so they don’t have the Iron Dome to protect them.”
That was reported in the NY Post, so apologies if it's inaccurate.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Biden is weak when dealing with Israel.

Biden to Israel: Don't do this.
Israel do it.
Biden to Israel: Okay, you can do that, but not that.
Israel do it.

And keep repeating.

And you guys still think that people who care about Palestinians in Gaza still have to vote for him when he continue to help Israel killing Palestinians.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

And you still think Trump is a better option, or there is a way to wish Biden off the ballot and replace him with someone else?

They can stay home and not vote - and then feel better when Trump wins I guess?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Blackhawk »

You do love your generalizations. You also seem to think that wildly complex situations can be boiled down to simple black-and-white, which is absurd.

/edit - to VR.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by hepcat »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 12:02 am Biden is weak when dealing with Israel.

Biden to Israel: Don't do this.
Israel do it.
Biden to Israel: Okay, you can do that, but not that.
Israel do it.

And keep repeating.

And you guys still think that people who care about Palestinians in Gaza still have to vote for him when he continue to help Israel killing Palestinians.
Of course they don’t have to vote for him. But when Trump starts dropping bombs on Gaza instead of food, and he refuses to even try to get a ceasefire, they should bring a mirror to every protest and hold it up to their own faces.

Again: it’s friggin’ idiotic to help the guy WHO LITERALLY HATES MUSLIMS win. I can’t believe that some people don’t understand that incredibly simple fact. :doh:
He won. Period.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

hepcat wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:12 am
Victoria Raverna wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 12:02 am Biden is weak when dealing with Israel.

Biden to Israel: Don't do this.
Israel do it.
Biden to Israel: Okay, you can do that, but not that.
Israel do it.

And keep repeating.

And you guys still think that people who care about Palestinians in Gaza still have to vote for him when he continue to help Israel killing Palestinians.
Of course they don’t have to vote for him. But when Trump starts dropping bombs on Gaza instead of food, and he refuses to even try to get a ceasefire, they should bring a mirror to every protest and hold it up to their own faces.

Again: it’s friggin’ idiotic to help the guy WHO LITERALLY HATES MUSLIMS win. I can’t believe that some people don’t understand that incredibly simple fact. :doh:
The thing is that they don't think Trump hates muslims. They think Trump just pretend to hate muslim. They can see how friendly Trump is with Saudi Arabia's royalty.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Zarathud »

Palestinians have no Oil and no Money. They’re fools to think Trump would ever give them a second thought. Much like poor white MAGAs.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by LordMortis »

Zarathud wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 9:18 am Palestinians have no Oil and no Money. They’re fools to think Trump would ever give them a second thought. Much like poor white MAGAs.
He pays them mind. He works on how much he can squeeze from them.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Dogstar »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:31 am The thing is that they don't think Trump hates muslims. They think Trump just pretend to hate muslim. They can see how friendly Trump is with Saudi Arabia's royalty.
He's friendly with people he either admires (Orban) or that can help him or benefit him financially (the Saudis).

As for the voters you speak of, they must have incredibly short memories. They're forgetting the anti-Islamic rhetoric, the friendliness with Israel, the moving of the embassy to Jerusalem, and the travel ban just for some initial examples from Trump's term in office.

They also must not have read Project 2025 or listened to Trump's advisor Stephen Miller's comments about looking at deporting people on visas that are protesting against Israel.


But more than that, I wish I had their crystal ball that somehow shows the future where the nation and the world can afford the setbacks in (no specific order) democracy, women's rights, rights for minorities, climate change progress, immigration, global security, and trade stability (which helps with the previous one), while somehow advancing the cause of the Palestinian people in ways a Biden administration wouldn't.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by hepcat »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:31 am The thing is that they don't think Trump hates muslims. They think Trump just pretend to hate muslim. They can see how friendly Trump is with Saudi Arabia's royalty.
As an aside, let's ask Jamal Khashoggi's widow how much a friend to Muslims the Saudi Arabian royal family is. It's a group that routinely imprisons, tortures and murders fellow Muslims for daring to question them.

But back on topic: Trump has left zero doubt as to his hatred of Muslims. He's isn't "pretending". The Trump travel ban is a freakin' historical fact, VR.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Let's check in on what the Muslim Advocates Organization themselves have documented.

Muslim Americans can either vote to help the Palestinians in the long term, or they can have quick vengeance against someone they feel isn't doing enough at the expense of killing more of the people they say they want to protect. The choice is theirs to make. But when the images of children being killed in this conflict start appearing tenfold after Trump is elected, they need to take responsibility for their part in that.
Last edited by hepcat on Mon Mar 11, 2024 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
He won. Period.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by GreenGoo »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 12:02 am Biden is weak when dealing with Israel.

Biden to Israel: Don't do this.
Israel do it.
Biden to Israel: Okay, you can do that, but not that.
Israel do it.

And keep repeating.

And you guys still think that people who care about Palestinians in Gaza still have to vote for him when he continue to help Israel killing Palestinians.
Biden: Israel, don't do it.

Drumpf: Israel, do it. Here's some more money and guns. I'll tell everyone that I personally killed all the people in Gaza because I'm the greatest!

Voters: There's no way I'm voting for Biden, he can't keep Israel in check.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by YellowKing »

I'll take weak but trying to stop vs actively encouraging. Biden's also trying to get aid to Gaza, which is something Trump would never in a million years consider doing.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Hopefully no one is going to attack him for this:

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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

This is an example of a good man, too bad he isn't the president:

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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by hepcat »

There's very little you can do in this world that won't result in SOMEONE attacking you. That's just a fact of life.

As for someone like him being president based on a simple sweeping proclamation that something isn't right without any knowledge of what doing the "right thing" would actually entail, how to do the "right thing", as well as the ramifications of doing the "right thing", I will simply say this: I could be president.

The country would go down the toilet within 10 minutes of me taking office, but I would have fit your agenda for being a good president for at least 9 of those minutes.
He won. Period.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by GreenGoo »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 12:34 pm This is an example of a good man, too bad he isn't the president:
Said every Bernie Bro for the last several decades. Unfortunately/fortunately there are only enough of them to tip an election to one party or the other, not enough to actually elect him, or even win a primary.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by El Guapo »

Black Lives Matter.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by GreenGoo »

Wait. That implies that the Israeli public have some power to affect their government. If the government can make changes that the public won't accept (i.e. financial instability as mentioned in the tweet), does that mean the public is perfectly fine with the military actions being taken in Gaza? I.e. they won't accept financial instability, but are currently "accepting" systemic civilian deaths?

Can someone give me some insight on this please?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Grifman »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:31 am
hepcat wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:12 am
Victoria Raverna wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 12:02 am Biden is weak when dealing with Israel.

Biden to Israel: Don't do this.
Israel do it.
Biden to Israel: Okay, you can do that, but not that.
Israel do it.

And keep repeating.

And you guys still think that people who care about Palestinians in Gaza still have to vote for him when he continue to help Israel killing Palestinians.
Of course they don’t have to vote for him. But when Trump starts dropping bombs on Gaza instead of food, and he refuses to even try to get a ceasefire, they should bring a mirror to every protest and hold it up to their own faces.

Again: it’s friggin’ idiotic to help the guy WHO LITERALLY HATES MUSLIMS win. I can’t believe that some people don’t understand that incredibly simple fact. :doh:
The thing is that they don't think Trump hates muslims. They think Trump just pretend to hate muslim. They can see how friendly Trump is with Saudi Arabia's royalty.
It was Trump that changed US policy and moved the embassy to Jerusalem. It was Trump who was buddy buddy with Netanyahu and never criticized him in any way.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Alefroth »

He's so good at the Middle East. They say nobody's better.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... rael-negev
He said that if he were in charge of Israel his number one priority would be getting civilians out of the southern city of Rafah, and that “with diplomacy” it could be possible to get them into Egypt.

“But in addition to that, I would just bulldoze something in the Negev, I would try to move people in there,” he said. “I think that’s a better option, so you can go in and finish the job.”
I wonder if Michigan's uncommitted are paying attention.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Pyperkub »

Grifman wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:45 pm
It was Trump that changed US policy and moved the embassy to Jerusalem. It was Trump who was buddy buddy with Netanyahu and never criticized him in any way.
It started before Trump. From 2015:
On January 8, House Speaker John Boehner and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell reached out to Ron Dermer, Israel's Ambassador to the US (and a former Republican operative), to discuss having Netanyahu speak in Congress. The Israelis and Republicans worked out the details of the event without notifying the White House, to "make sure," in Boehner's words, "that there was no interference" from the administration.
And see again how the GOP is trying to kowtow actually bending the knee to Netanyahu again during an election:
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke with Senate Republicans for about 45 minutes Wednesday in a closed-door videoconference at their weekly lunch where he asserted Israel must have the freedom and time to complete its war with Hamas.
And the House is (probably) next:
Johnson also said at the House GOP leadership’s weekly news conference that he had a “lengthy conversation” over the phone with Netanyahu on Wednesday morning. Axios was first to report House Republicans were weighing inviting Netanyahu to Capitol Hill.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

GOP politicians are not the only ones. Biden lied to Americans to help Israel:

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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Sanders' speech about the ongoing genocide at Gaza that US supported:



---

One good news. Hopefully US isn't going to veto US's own proposal.

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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

If you're really against the genocide at Gaza, this is what you do:



Canada showed the world that it is not that hard to stop supporting genocide if you're serious about it.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

I think we should do this too.

And if we don’t. I’ll still support Biden over Trump.
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