Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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LordMortis
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by LordMortis »

Unagi wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 8:17 am I think we should do this too.

And if we don’t. I’ll still support Biden over Trump.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Victoria Raverna wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2024 3:22 am
One good news. Hopefully US isn't going to veto US's own proposal.

Nope - Russia and China vetoed it.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

About the failed resolution:





Look like the resolution was not a resolution to call for immediate ceasefire but a resolution to call for UN to support US negotiation for a ceasefire that is weak and let Israel do whatever Israel want to.

About what was in the draft resolution that got voted on:

https://www.securitycouncilreport.org/w ... tion-4.php
The draft that was put in blue on 14 March expressed the Council’s unequivocal support for “international diplomatic efforts to establish an immediate and sustained ceasefire as part of a deal that releases the hostages”. It seems that this phrasing still did not satisfy several members, with some maintaining that the role of the Council—as the body with primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security—and the dire situation in Gaza demand that the Council call for an immediate ceasefire rather than only expressing support for talks.

After further negotiations, the US reformulated this paragraph to state that the Council “[d]etermines the imperative of an immediate and sustained ceasefire to protect civilians on all sides” and to “allow for the delivery of essential humanitarian assistance”, adding that towards that end, the Council “unequivocally supports ongoing international diplomatic efforts to secure such a ceasefire in connection with the release of all remaining hostages”. While it appears that some members will be able to support this phrasing today, others might still object, arguing that determining the imperative of a ceasefire falls short of the Council directly calling for such a measure, and that the current phrasing still ties the ceasefire to the release of the hostages instead of calling for these elements in their own right.

...

Language on an Israeli ground offensive targeting Rafah, Gaza’s southernmost city, also proved contentious. This refers to the 9 February announcement by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that he had ordered the preparation of a “combined plan” to evacuate civilians and to destroy Hamas’ forces in Rafah. Since that announcement, key international interlocutors—including senior UN officials and humanitarian and human rights organisations—have repeatedly warned of the catastrophic consequences of an offensive targeting Rafah, where over a million displaced Palestinians are currently present.

Language in the draft resolution has reflected the US position on this issue as recently expressed by US Secretary of State Antony Blinken during his 5 March meeting with Israeli War Cabinet member Benny Gantz. At that meeting, Blinken said that Israel needs “a credible and implementable humanitarian plan prior to any major military operation in Rafah”. One of the earlier iterations of the draft resolution currently in blue said that the Council determined that “under current circumstances a major ground offensive into Rafah would result in further harm to civilians and their further displacement including potentially into neighbouring countries” and underscored that “such a major ground offensive should not proceed under current circumstances”.

This language was apparently challenged by a majority of Council members out of concern that it could be interpreted as the Security Council indirectly approving an offensive in Rafah under some circumstances. In an apparent attempt to address these concerns, in the third revised draft the US moved the language on the offensive from the operative section of the resolution to its preamble and removed text saying that an offensive “should not proceed under the current circumstances”, leaving text saying that “under current circumstances” an offensive would result in further harm and displacement of civilians. It seems, however, that many members were still uncomfortable with the reference to “under current circumstances”.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Guyana's reason for abstaining on the resolution that was vetoed by Russia and China:



And that was Biden's White House that openly lied about the content of the resolution to Americans.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

I agree with the gentlewoman from Guyana.


The Biden administration is walking a fine line - but again, VR - do you realize that the alternative isn't so much a stronger/better Biden administration, but a Trump administration?

Obviously, the idea that Russia and China can just veto any resolution makes the whole thing a joke, if you ask me.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Unagi wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2024 11:22 am I agree with the gentlewoman from Guyana.


The Biden administration is walking a fine line - but again, VR - do you realize that the alternative isn't so much a stronger/better Biden administration, but a Trump administration?

Obviously, the idea that Russia and China can just veto any resolution makes the whole thing a joke, if you ask me.
And didn't US veto 3 previous resolution? The whole thing is a joke. US's draft resolution was also a joke.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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The UN Security Council is a joke, until it isn't.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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I was biased against this PM because of his (past?) association with an Islamic party but I guess maybe that was my own version of Islamphobia but listening to him about Gaza and about Malaysia relation with Hamas, he is very reasonable:

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And this guy used to be a real admiral in US Navy?

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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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We get it, Israel treats Palestinians like Indonesia treats West Papuans at times. But to insinuate that justifies what happened on Oct. 6th overlooks the evidence of inhuman cruelty we saw (displaying bodies of young men and women to cheering throngs, the rapes, etc..). There’s only one poster here who seems ambivalent to the siege on Gaza. The rest of us agree that it’s gone too far at this point and that a ceasefire should occur. That doesn’t mean we should now rethink what Hamas did that kicked this current war off.

You can think Hamas is wrong while also thinking what Israel is doing now is wrong.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Finally, US didn't veto a real ceasefire resolution. I guess the pressure on Biden worked.



And Israel made it know that they're mad about US decision.

Is AIPAC going to support Trump over Biden because of this?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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hepcat wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 8:03 am We get it, Israel treats Palestinians like Indonesia treats West Papuans at times. But to insinuate that justifies what happened on Oct. 6th overlooks the evidence of inhuman cruelty we saw (displaying bodies of young men and women to cheering throngs, the rapes, etc..). There’s only one poster here who seems ambivalent to the siege on Gaza. The rest of us agree that it’s gone too far at this point and that a ceasefire should occur. That doesn’t mean we should now rethink what Hamas did that kicked this current war off.

You can think Hamas is wrong while also thinking what Israel is doing now is wrong.
Just a note about the rapes which had been used to justify Israel's killings of Palestinians. Until now that has not been confirmed or verified. At least 3 reports about sexual violence that was reported early on based were found to be wrong according to UN staffs that wrote the actual report on that.

Here are a video that show questioning by reporters of the UN staffs that wrote the report about sexual violence that was used to imply that UN confirmed that there were sexual violence or rape:



For anyone that don't want or don't have time to watch that. In that video, the UN staffs confirmed that they couldn't verified any sexual violence occur on Oct 7th but they can confirmed 3 claims of sexual violence were wrong or unfounded. That doesn't mean there were no sexual violence on Oct 7th, but until now months later, there is no single confirmation of any sexual violence on October 7th.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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It wasn’t just claims of rape that started Israel down this path though, was it? Even if there was no sexual violence (which, let’s face it, is pretty hard to believe), there was still a well documented, sudden attack on a lot of innocent people by Hamas. Followed by self made video of Hamas terrorists parading the bodies around to cheering crowds.

I think it’s important to keep bringing this up not because I want to justify what Israel is doing (again: there needs to be a ceasefire, most of us agree on that), but because it seems more and more lately that some folks are trying to downplay what Hamas did.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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hepcat wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 7:44 am It wasn’t just claims of rape that started Israel down this path though, was it? Even if there was no sexual violence (which, let’s face it, is pretty hard to believe), there was still a well documented, sudden attack on a lot of innocent people by Hamas.

I think it’s important to keep bringing this up not because I want to justify what Israel is doing, but because it seems more and more lately that some folks are trying to downplay what Hamas did.
Watch the video if you want to see what she said about that UN report. The woman was the one that wrote the actual report. Seem like the press release claimed that UN found actual sexual violence but from the woman herself, she just said they need to investigate. She was unable to verify any cases except to find that 3 reported cases were false.

My point is people keep bringing up the rape thing but surprisingly we still haven't got a verification of a single case of actual rape or sexual violence on October 7th. Not saying that it didn't happen, but if it did, it was not systematic. Just like the sexual violence of Palestinian female prisoners by Israeli are individual crime, not systematic act by Israel.

As for downplaying what Hamas did, we have to look at what Hamas did on October 7th in context of decades of occupation of Palestinian lands by Israel. History didn't start on October 7th. Downplaying Hamas violence is bad but it is also bad to downplay Israel's violence against Palestinians before and after October 7th.
Last edited by Victoria Raverna on Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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And here she is saying there is reasonable evidence that it did occur. I guess she’s just not a trustworthy person.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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hepcat wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:03 am And here she is saying there is reasonable evidence that it did occur. I guess she’s just not a trustworthy person.

https://apnews.com/abe687b56a454cac95ee20edb3e8246a
Yeah, but she was the one that said she was not able to confirm them when asked by reporters. So did she have reasonable evidence or not?

Here is the part of the video where she talked about it:

Last edited by Victoria Raverna on Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I guess we can’t believe any reports on anything coming out of that region.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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hepcat wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:07 am I guess we can’t believe any reports on anything coming out of that region.
Since we're discussing the UN's report, then maybe we should listen to what the writer of that report said about it, right?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 7:59 am As for downplaying what Hamas did, we have to look at what Hamas did on October 7th in context of decades of occupation of Palestinian lands by Israel. History didn't start on October 7th. Downplaying Hamas violence is bad but it is also bad to downplay Israel's violence against Palestinians before and after October 7th.
No, history didn't start on October 7th. But in some cases, it seems like what Israel has gone through at the hands of others in that region and the larger Arab and/or Muslim world is conveniently left out of those history books. EVERYTHING has context.
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Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Wow, you are an apologist for all Palestinian propaganda, VR. The UN found “reasonable grounds to believe” the Israeli reports of rape , without being able to fully investigate. I believe the victims, both known and unknown, even if extremists may overstate it for political gain.

But Israelis don’t need to have been raped. Hamas started a war by its mass attack on civilians, which intentionally triggered a military response. The suffering and starvation of refugees in Gaza was a foreseeable response from IDF retaliation. We see it on social media to a greater degree than before, but the current humanitarian crisis has always been part of major wars.

The cornerstone of the U.S.-Israeli military alliance is to defend Israel from attacks. That policy comes from Arab attacks intended to eliminate Israel shortly after its founding, which is why slogans about driving Israelis into the sea are so offensive. Attacks continue weekly, from rockets to stones. We’re not going to stop helping Israel, even if we disagree with their methods or the fallout from their tactics. We may pressure them privately and publicly.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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I'm not sure what we're arguing about. Hamas conducted a terrorist attack in the hopes of provoking an overly aggressive response so Israel would be seen in a bad light. Israel obliged.

I'd like them to stop too. For the American government, it's not that simple and anyone with even an inkling of understanding of the relationship between the two nations would understand that.

The end.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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What I understand is that AIPAC like NRA funded a lot of politicians.

You can't do much about shootings because they owned your politicians.

You also can't do much about Israel because they also owned your politicians.
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Hopefully Israel will be open to a ceasefire soon. In a perfect world, Indonesia would stop its genocide against indigenous people at the same time. But the politicians who could help stop it are owned by the corporations who want the resources in those regions.
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hepcat wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 10:37 am Hopefully Israel will be open to a ceasefire soon. In a perfect world, Indonesia would stop its genocide against indigenous people at the same time. But the politicians who could help stop it are owned by the corporations who want the resources in those regions.
What is your point? You're trying to insult me by bringing up Indonesia? And to think that people are complaining about using the word genocide but seem like it is easy to do it when it is not against Israel. You don't see double standard in that? The intent thing doesn't matter anymore? How many excuses about Israel doesn't commit genocide because there is some requirement like intent and other BS before it can be called a genocide. :)

BTW, Indonesia is wrong in West Papua. That area is not supposed to part of Indonesia. I personally support a Free Papua. BTW, the Papua freedom fighters are also attacking civilians including women and children but that is understandable because they're fighting a stronger occupying force.

Indonesian politicians can't support a Free West Papua not because of US corporation like Freeport-McMoran but because majority of Indonesians think West Papua is part of Indonesia. Also there is risk of jail for them to openly support a free West Papua. There are some activists that are jailed with charges of treason and supporting terrorist because they support a free West Papua.
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Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:22 am What is your point? You're trying to insult me by bringing up Indonesia?
I've never seen you mention the treatment of West Papuans by Indonesia before. I have seen you frequently mention how awful the U.S. is though because they can't stop a sovereign foreign nation from doing something wrong. There's your context.
Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:22 am BTW, the Papua freedom fighters are also attacking civilians including women and children but that is understandable because they're fighting a stronger occupying force.
This should never be justified. And before you latch onto that, I (and everyone else here) has never said Israel is justified in killing civilians. It has been said it's an unavoidable side effect of war, but it's never been called right.
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hepcat wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:37 am
Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:22 am What is your point? You're trying to insult me by bringing up Indonesia?
I've never seen you mention the treatment of West Papuans by Indonesia before. I have seen you frequently mention how awful the U.S. is though because they can't stop a sovereign foreign nation from doing something wrong. There's your context.
Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:22 am BTW, the Papua freedom fighters are also attacking civilians including women and children but that is understandable because they're fighting a stronger occupying force.
This should never be justified. And before you latch onto that, I (and everyone else here) has never said Israel is justified in killing civilians. It has been said it's an unavoidable side effect of war, but it's never been called right.
This is a thread about Israel-US relations and associated politics. Don't you think it'll be strange if I mention the treatment of West Papuans by Indonesia here?

Understand why they killed civilians doesn't mean I justified the killings. As for killing civilian as unavoidable side effect, you don't see Indonesia military bombing Papua because the freedom fighter/terrorist (from Indonesia government viewpoint) killed some civilians or took hostages. BTW, the freedom fighter still hold a hostage that a pilot that they kidnapped months ago.

You called Indonesia treatment of West Papuans as genocide but it was and is nowhere near what Israel is doing before and after October 7th against Palestinians.
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Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:47 am
This is a thread about Israel-US relations and associated politics. Don't you think it'll be strange if I mention the treatment of West Papuans by Indonesia here?
I was pointing out you'd never mentioned it anywhere, ever, on OO before. Not just here.

Was it petty? Yes. But you can only listen to someone tell you how awful your country is for something that is not entirely within their control for so long before your all too human side lashes out.
Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:47 am
As for killing civilian as unavoidable side effect, you don't see Indonesia military bombing Papua because the freedom fighter/terrorist (from Indonesia government viewpoint) killed some civilians or took hostages. BTW, the freedom fighter still hold a hostage that a pilot that they kidnapped months ago.
I wonder what would happen were they to commit an attack on the same scale as Hamas on Oct. 7th.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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hepcat wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:49 am
Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:47 am
This is a thread about Israel-US relations and associated politics. Don't you think it'll be strange if I mention the treatment of West Papuans by Indonesia here?
I was pointing out you'd never mentioned it anywhere, ever on OO before. Not just here.

Was it petty? Yes. But you can only listen to someone tell you how awful your country is for something that is not entirely within their control for so long before your all too human side lashes out.
And you also don't see me defending Indonesia's treatment on Papua, right? It never mentioned here because no one brought it up as far as I know. Or maybe I missed it when someone brought it up.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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BTW, it is useless to attack me by attacking Indonesia. My view is more aligned with western view than average Indonesians. I don't agree with a lot of things that Indonesian government do. I'm pro LGBT, not like the government of Indonesia. I'm pro Choice while Indonesian government is against abortion. I'm an agnostic when Indonesian government don't accept that.

I think part of the reason why I'm upset about this Gaza war is that I used to be on the side of Israel in opposition of most Indonesians. I think it is stupid for some Indonesian muslim to be against Israel. I think it is stupid for them to hate Jews when most of them never met any. Israel's response to October 7th changed my view. I didn't know about Nakba or how Israel treated Palestinians before that. My views were based on Israel's version of history. Where Israel as a new state was attacked by Arab neighbors. The Arab neighbors were the aggressor. I didn't know the bad things that Israel did to Palestinians before, during and after that war.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:13 pm BTW, it is useless to attack me by attacking Indonesia.
Are you attacking the rest of us by constantly stating that our politicians are owned by Israel? If no, then I'm not attacking you. :P
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Gah! WAY too much youtube spam in this thread.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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That’s the point — you are so obsessed with Palestine. Why?
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Zarathud wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 2:32 pm That’s the point — you are so obsessed with Palestine. Why?
The genocide hasn't stopped. People are still dying and going to die because of the action of Israel government.

The thing is that it is not just me. The whole world want it to stop including people in US.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Look, I get it. It's hard to watch children suffering. It's not something anyone wants. So I understand the outrage. I really do. I just think that sometimes you're unfair when it comes to what you believe the United States (and more precisely, Biden) can do to stop it. He's already expressed his desire for a ceasefire on multiple occasions. He's been caught on an open mic discussing his disdain for the way Netanyahu is handling things. But the simple fact of the matter is, this is a complicated situation that can't be solved with a wave of the hand. Even were we to suddenly announce we were now enemies of Israel over this, do you think Netanyahu would suddenly stop? And to make matters even worse, Iran and other countries in the Middle East have been using Hamas and the Palestinians as a whole as a proxy for their hostility towards the west for a long time.

It tragic, but something like this takes time to stop. Israel has been the target of Hamas attacks for decades, and Palestinians have suffered through occupation even longer Both sides are angry. We can only hope that anger turns to dialogue soon.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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People die all the time due to war and actions of government. Why this one?

Genocide has a very specific legal meaning which you’ve previously admitted you don’t care about. So that’s not why.
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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

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Zarathud wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:05 pm People die all the time due to war and actions of government. Why this one?

Genocide has a very specific legal meaning which you’ve previously admitted you don’t care about. So that’s not why.
Previously there were no clear intent. Now the intent is obvious. To stop or slow down food aid to Palestinians in Gaza is clear that the point is to starve and them die of starvation. It is clearly that this is an ongoing genocide.


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Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

AOC's words:

I know a man, a decent man, who said that “preventing genocide is an achievable goal, a goal that requires a level of government organization and engagement that matches in its intensity the brutality and efficiency required to carry out mass killing. Too often, these efforts have come too late, after the best and least costly opportunities to prevent them have been missed.”

The man that said that was then Vice-President and now President Joseph Biden. And he was right.

I rise to say that such a time is now. As we speak, in this moment, 1.1 million innocents in Gaza are at famine’s door. A famine that is being intentionally precipitated through the blocking of food and global humanitarian assistance by leaders in the Israeli government.

This is a mass starvation of people, engineered and orchestrated following the killing of another 30,000, 70% of whom were women and children.

There is hardly a single hospital left. And this was all accomplished with US resources and weapons. If you want to know what an unfolding genocide looks like, open your eyes. It looks like the forced famine of 1.1 million innocents. It looks like thousands of children eating grass as their bodies consume themselves, while trucks of food are slowed and halted just miles away. It looks like good and decent people who do nothing. Or too little. Too late.

It is against United States law to provide weapons to forces who block United States humanitarian assistance. And that is exactly what is happening right now. So much so that the president himself stated, during the State of the Union, that the United States must and will be building its own port to let aid through. It will be too late.

The time is now to force compliance with US law and the standards of humanity. And fulfill our obligations to the American people to suspend the transfer of US weapons to the Israeli government in order to stop and prevent further atrocity.

Honoring our alliances does not mean facilitating mass killing. We cannot hide from our responsibility any longer. Blocking assistance from one’s closest allies to starve a million people is not unintentional.

We have a responsibility to prove the value of global democracy, enshrined in the upholding of civil society, rule of law, and commitment to human and civil rights.

This is not just about Israel or Gaza. This is about us. The world will never be the same. And we will never be the same. And we must write our story in this moment, of what it means and who we are as Americans. And our story must be not that we were good men who did nothing. But that we were a committed democracy that did something.

And we must prove that now. With that, I yield back. Thank you.
malchior
Posts: 24795
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by malchior »

Popped in to say I don't get why you are trying anymore VR. I return weeks later and it's pretty much the same; you are still having the same lame non-substantive abuses hurled at you. I don't get the point. You're trying to appeal to a sense of justice and/or morals that just isn't here.
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hepcat
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Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by hepcat »

I wish I could say this is the first time I’ve been called immoral by a stranger.
He won. Period.
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