Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[Kurth]

I think this was less an attempt to wreak havoc than to show off capability. Ideally Israel will go "whoa, nice" and Iran will go "oh bummer." Dicks having been swung, that will be that.

Ideally.

I agree. This is more a show by Iran for domestic consumption. Seems like it was far from the worst case scenario.

[hepcat]

Stolen elections have consequences.

That's true. Thank god Trump wasn't able to steal it in 2020! I'm glad you pointed that out!

By the way, when the leading intellectual for your conspiracy theory is the My Pillow Guy, it may be time to rethink your life choices.

How did Bibi steal the election?

Again, his version of William F. Buckley Jr. is Mike Lindell. You're going to have to explain who Bibi is to em2 first before he'll make the connection.

[waitingtoconnect]

I think this was less an attempt to wreak havoc than to show off capability. Ideally Israel will go "whoa, nice" and Iran will go "oh bummer." Dicks having been swung, that will be that.

Ideally.

It was more to keep Israel’s far right going because now it’ll be all the harder politically to stop fighting.

Every time Israel looks like we are about to rein it in or it’s going to make peace with a neighbour Iran or one of its proxies attacks.

Stolen elections have consequences.

That's true. Thank god Trump wasn't able to steal it in 2020! I'm glad you pointed that out!

By the way, when the leading intellectual for your conspiracy theory is the My Pillow Guy, it may be time to rethink your life choices.

How did Bibi steal the election?

Again, his version of William F. Buckley Jr. is Mike Lindell. You're going to have to explain who Bibi is to em2 first before he'll make the connection.

If trump had stolen the election we’d have had the besterest peace ever. Instead of bombs flying we’d have had the pings of golf balls being hit everywhere. It’d be like heaven on earth. God would be like we dont need the apocalypse now trump solved it.

[hepcat]

“Today, in American history: Mike Lindell, the foremost intellectual in Donald Trump’s new administration, releases evidence that ‘fire bad’ to confused group of senators. When asked how we should proceed, Mike responded by running into the Oval Office and trying to hide in a corner.”

[Unagi]

My rough outline of a timeline/list of events...
(I'm sharing this to invite feedback and counter opinions/discussions - I'm open)

1. Jews & Arabs live in the area.
2. Outside this area, Jews are treated just absurdly >horribly< (understatement of the year), about as bad as any people have ever been treated 'as a people' in the last ~500 odd years.
3. Outside this area, the war in which they were (above) treated is concluded and they are given "Israel" by a Europe in great control of the area's "say-so".
4. Shit goes down and Arabs and Jews hate each other even more.
5a. Shit goes down and Israel wins, they will never look back, and will never formally look at themselves as "in friendly territory" and they will focus forever on the enemies they are surrounded by.
5b. Shit goes down and Israel wins, Arabs will never look back, and will never formally look at themselves as "safe" and they will focus forever on the enemies they are curtailed by - who are blessed by Europe/"the west"

Years (a generation +) pass where Israel dominates Gaza. Gaza is internally ruled and represented by horrible people who will only see blood and war as the resolution to their situation.
Rockets launcnhed into Israel for a generation +. AND it can't be ignored - never has a moment passed where a large element of the Muslim leadership of the area didn't outwardly push for the total elimination of the Jewish people from their area. One can only go on faith that VR is equally frustrated by all of their positions/statements on this matter.

Israel is eventually/currently ruled by people who realize history is eventually forgiving and they are in a good position to do what they want - yet this comes at a time when the world is more aware and critical of behavior in all of history.

What to do...

Gaza is ruled by people whom I can't explain nor care to defend, who clearly saw no other path forward but to brutally slaughter totally innocent and unsuspecting people living their lives in peace and excellence (basically the biggest human transgressions we can witness - so yeah , fuck-you!-Hamas ) and who just wanted truly --no part or say-- in the tragic lives of the random person in Gaza.

Hamas, the rulers of Gaza, have no moral ground - where they may have had any - - they spent it with their actions.

And, with the specifics of their response - IDF has lost any moral ground as well - they have (IMO) crossed the line too many times, too broadly and too often without justifiable reason to maintain any "oh!, buy the ugly of war" defenses, and frankly have started to look like they are using that fog to their advantage far too often.

So yeah - Israel responds with a brutality that matches and perhaps (given their position) even exceeds the horrors of Hamas, no joke - no hyperbole - but perhaps at the very very least, "they didn't start it" - while at the same time - making very clear (as every god-damned-parent knows!) - It doesn't matter who started it.

Gloves off ?...
Israel proper hits back against Iran proper (Hamas proper), perhaps properly - but intellectually --> undeniably escalating. /shrug? do we /shrug? at this?

And so (as if by definition of "escalating") Iran proper attacks back at Israel proper.



--

People here should all go back and bother to re-read everyone's posts from October 7th onward.

Please.

[Blackhawk]

That's a lot of reading! Since I largely agree with you, may I be excused from the homework?

[Unagi]

Obviously no one needs to do it.
And I only read like 5 pages,,,,

I just found it interesting to re read what people thought as this all started.

[Carpet_pissr]

People here should all go back and bother to re-read everyone's posts from October 7th onward.
Please.

Hard pass. Like diamonds or...metallic glass hard.

[Blackhawk]

It starts on page 10, for the morbidly curious.

I'm happy to say that my views apparently haven't changed much on this.

[Daehawk]

I hate the baiting titles and headlines of this video but lots of info in there.

[Victoria Raverna]

It starts on page 10, for the morbidly curious.

I'm happy to say that my views apparently haven't changed much on this.

At least some "facts" changed. The beheaded babies turned out to be 0 beheaded baby. The systematic rape turned out to be a lie, too.

[Blackhawk]

It's more that I'm happy that I wasn't so off base in my reaction that I felt the need to completely change my view when the situation changed. I wasn't as clueless as I figured I had been (I knew very little about Israeli issues when this all started.) I've tweaked the nuances, sure, but the heart of my response hasn't changed.

[Carpet_pissr]

"Google fires 28 employees involved in 'Googlers against Genocide' sit-in at New York, Sunnyvale offices"

Jane Chung, a spokeswoman for the protesters, blasted the firings in a statement.
"This evening, Google indiscriminately fired 28 workers, including those among us who did not directly participate in yesterday’s historic, bicoastal 10-hour sit-in protests," Google workers said in the statement.
"This flagrant act of retaliation is a clear indication that Google values its $1.2 billion contract with the genocidal Israeli government and military more than its own workers — the ones who create real value for executives and shareholders."
"Sundar Pichai and Thomas Kurian are genocide profiteers," the statement asserted, referring to Google’s CEO and the Google Cloud CEO, respectively.
"We cannot comprehend how these men are able to sleep at night while their tech has enabled 100,000 Palestinians killed, reported missing, or wounded in the last six months of Israel’s genocide — and counting."

Bolding is mine. YA THINK, JANE?!? LOL

28 employees vs. a $1.2 billion contract....hmmmm.

[YellowKing]

Google Any corporation values its $1.2 billion contract with the genocidal Israeli government and military bottom line more than its own workers

Fixed

[Blackhawk]

...and shit is blowing up in Iran, courtesy of Israel.

[Victoria Raverna]

12 in favor. 2 abstain.

And US showed a strong support for a two-state solution by opposing Palestinian request for full UN membership?

[waitingtoconnect]

There will never be a Palestinian state in a two state solution. People can recognise it all they want but Bibi and Hamas have made it unviable. Any attempt to do this has led to vicious fighting.

In my view both sides need to learn to share the same land overall as equals as the South Africans have tried to do or the war will go on forever.

As for Iran, Israel has proven that a small flotilla of drones can hit deep in Iranian territory and Iran can’t even with a fleet of drones and missiles.

[Unagi]

Israel had no choice but to respond to the Hammas attacks on Oct 7th and attack Iran. Iran had no choice but to respond and attack Israel. Israel had no choice but to respond and attack Iran.


Netanyahu and the IDF are doing a great job at making Israelis safer and safer, every day. And securing the safety of their future too.

[El Guapo]

There will never be a Palestinian state in a two state solution. People can recognise it all they want but Bibi and Hamas have made it unviable. Any attempt to do this has led to vicious fighting.

In my view both sides need to learn to share the same land overall as equals as the South Africans have tried to do or the war will go on forever.

As for Iran, Israel has proven that a small flotilla of drones can hit deep in Iranian territory and Iran can’t even with a fleet of drones and missiles.

There are immense, immense problems in terms of getting to a viable two-state solution, but a stable one-state solution is even more of a fantasy. Israelis would never tolerate a state where Jewish people were not in the majority - that is in fact the whole point of Israel, to be the one state in the world that will accept Jews from any place that is oppressing or killing them, and where Jews can live not at the tolerance of the majority. Conversely, would Palestinians tolerate perpetually living in the minority as citizens of Israel? I'm deeply skeptical of that as well.

That's the big contrast with comparing this to South Africa. In South Africa white and black South Africans both identified as South Africans. Israelis and Palestinians very much do not identify as one people or one nationality.

[Moliere]

Dave Smith is the debate King on this subject.

[El Guapo]

Dave Smith is the debate King on this subject.

Do you want to give some highlights on that 2+ hour video, by any chance?

[gilraen]

I don't know who Dave Smith is, and the rest of them I can't stand for various reasons. So yeah...pass.

[Moliere]

Do you want to give some highlights on that 2+ hour video, by any chance?

Heated debate covering the questions of appropriate response to Oct 7th, Israel occupation of Gaza, the history of the 2 state solution, Iran, etc. I listen to these videos at 1.5 speed and skip past most of anything Prager is saying. Normally I dislike anything Cenk has to say, but he is better on this topic.

[Moliere]

I don't know who Dave Smith is,

A stand up comedian and podcaster. A Mises/Ron Paul libertarian.

[Carpet_pissr]

Dave Smith is the debate King on this subject.

I listened to all the opening statements and when I have more time will listen to the rest. I predict the guy on the far left (physically) of the panel is going to wipe the floor with the others.

I would likely be the Young Turk guy, who riles himself up as he speaks louder and louder until he’s practically shouting his hyperbole.

Prager and the lady seem too biased to debate logically/effectively.

Again, just pre-judging based on opening statements.

[Moliere]

I listened to all the opening statements and when I have more time will listen to the rest. I predict the guy on the far left (physically) of the panel is going to wipe the floor with the others.

I would likely be the Young Turk guy, who riles himself up as he speaks louder and louder until he’s practically shouting his hyperbole.

Prager and the lady seem too biased to debate logically/effectively.

Again, just pre-judging based on opening statements.

Dave Smith, on the far left of the panel does wipe the floor on every issue in this topic. He knows the history better than any of them.

Cenk pounding the table and screaming doesn't help his cause.

Prager is smug in what he says, how he says it, and even how he sits there waiting for others to stop talking. He performs the worst in this debate.

I don't know the lady, but she seems to be trying too hard not to offend anyone and play both sides.

[Carpet_pissr]

You would think someone named "Sargon" would perform a little better in this kind of environment.

[Isgrimnur]

He's no Akkadian.

[Pyperkub]

Just the beginning? US/EU starting to sanction the Israeli extremists with Israeli Cabinet Connections:

The U.S. imposed sanctions on Friday against Ben-Zion (Benzi) Gopstein — an extremist settler who is the founder and the leader of "Lehava," an organization that has engaged in destabilizing violence affecting the occupied West Bank, the State Department said in a statement.

Why it matters: This third round of sanctions imposed by the U.S. targets an extremist settler who is part of the inner circle of an Israeli cabinet member and whose organization was involved in violent attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank.

Gopstein is a close confidant of Israel's ultranationalist minister of national security Itamar Ben Gvir and a key figure in the radical right in Israel.
"Under Gopstein's leadership, Lehava and its members have been involved in acts or threats of violence against Palestinians, often targeting sensitive or volatile areas," the State Department said.

The big picture: The new U.S. sanctions were part of a coordinated move with the EU, which also announced sanctions against Lehava and several other extremist settlers and entities connected to settler violence against Palestinians.

[waitingtoconnect]

There will never be a Palestinian state in a two state solution. People can recognise it all they want but Bibi and Hamas have made it unviable. Any attempt to do this has led to vicious fighting.

In my view both sides need to learn to share the same land overall as equals as the South Africans have tried to do or the war will go on forever.

As for Iran, Israel has proven that a small flotilla of drones can hit deep in Iranian territory and Iran can’t even with a fleet of drones and missiles.

There are immense, immense problems in terms of getting to a viable two-state solution, but a stable one-state solution is even more of a fantasy. Israelis would never tolerate a state where Jewish people were not in the majority - that is in fact the whole point of Israel, to be the one state in the world that will accept Jews from any place that is oppressing or killing them, and where Jews can live not at the tolerance of the majority. Conversely, would Palestinians tolerate perpetually living in the minority as citizens of Israel? I'm deeply skeptical of that as well.

That's the big contrast with comparing this to South Africa. In South Africa white and black South Africans both identified as South Africans. Israelis and Palestinians very much do not identify as one people or one nationality.

You are right of course - there is what people should be able to do and the things they can’t get past.

[Victoria Raverna]

Israel minister warned Biden not to cross the "red line".

National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir says that imposing “sanctions on our soldiers is a red line,” after a report says the Biden administration is slated to announce sanctions against the IDF’s Netzah Yehuda battalion.

The sanctions are reportedly a response to alleged human rights abuses committed against Palestinians in the West Bank by the unit’s members.

Describing the report as “extremely serious,” Ben Gvir states that he “expects Defense Minister Yoav Gallant not to submit to American dictates” and that the members of Netzah Yehuda “must be fully supported.”

“If there is not anybody at the Defense Ministry who will back up the battalion as required, I will ask to absorb them into the Israel Police and the Ministry of National Security,” continues Ben Gvir, who states that he would be willing to integrate it into the Border Police.

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich says that the imposition of the sanctions “while Israel is fighting for its existence is complete madness.”

“This is part of a planned move to force the State of Israel to agree to the establishment of a Palestinian state and to forsake Israel’s security,” Smotrich charges in a post on X.

Is Biden going to cross the red line?

[LordMortis]

Red Line? I get (though do not approve) of rejecting dictates. But red line? What is the implication or explicit threat?

[$iljanus]

Israel minister warned Biden not to cross the "red line".

National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir says that imposing “sanctions on our soldiers is a red line,” after a report says the Biden administration is slated to announce sanctions against the IDF’s Netzah Yehuda battalion.

The sanctions are reportedly a response to alleged human rights abuses committed against Palestinians in the West Bank by the unit’s members.

Describing the report as “extremely serious,” Ben Gvir states that he “expects Defense Minister Yoav Gallant not to submit to American dictates” and that the members of Netzah Yehuda “must be fully supported.”

“If there is not anybody at the Defense Ministry who will back up the battalion as required, I will ask to absorb them into the Israel Police and the Ministry of National Security,” continues Ben Gvir, who states that he would be willing to integrate it into the Border Police.

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich says that the imposition of the sanctions “while Israel is fighting for its existence is complete madness.”

“This is part of a planned move to force the State of Israel to agree to the establishment of a Palestinian state and to forsake Israel’s security,” Smotrich charges in a post on X.

Is Biden going to cross the red line?

Is the consequence for crossing the line giving back our aid money?

[Holman]

Dave Smith, on the far left of the panel does wipe the floor on every issue in this topic. He knows the history better than any of them.

Cenk pounding the table and screaming doesn't help his cause.

Prager is smug in what he says, how he says it, and even how he sits there waiting for others to stop talking. He performs the worst in this debate.

I don't know the lady, but she seems to be trying too hard not to offend anyone and play both sides.

It's a damn shame that there are no actual experts on the subject of Israel-Palestine history and politics doing work in any field today.

I guess we have to settle for pundits and ideologues.

[GreenGoo]

It's a damn shame that there are no actual experts on the subject of Israel-Palestine history and politics doing work in any field today.

I guess we have to settle for pundits and ideologues.

I wonder how they feel about vaccines. Surely Dave Chappelle has some insight that can guide us during these troubling times.

[Kurth]

It starts on page 10, for the morbidly curious.

I'm happy to say that my views apparently haven't changed much on this.

At least some "facts" changed. The beheaded babies turned out to be 0 beheaded baby. The systematic rape turned out to be a lie, too.

Hey, VR, I've got a link for you: The Rape Denialists.

[LawBeefaroni]

BBC:

The Israeli military's intelligence chief has resigned, saying he took responsibility for the failures before Hamas's attack on Israel on 7 October.

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said Major General Aharon Haliva would retire once his successor was selected.

He acknowledged in a letter that his intelligence directorate "did not live up to the task we were entrusted with".

He is the first senior figure to step down over the attack, which was the deadliest in Israel's history.

Israeli military and intelligence officials missed or ignored multiple warnings before hundreds of Hamas gunmen breached the Gaza border fence that day and attacked nearby Israeli communities, military bases and a music festival.

More will probably follow.

[Victoria Raverna]

It starts on page 10, for the morbidly curious.

I'm happy to say that my views apparently haven't changed much on this.

At least some "facts" changed. The beheaded babies turned out to be 0 beheaded baby. The systematic rape turned out to be a lie, too.

Hey, VR, I've got a link for you: The Rape Denialists.

Is there any evidence of systematic rape on October 7th in that? How about a single evidence? Only one.

I'm not denying that there were rape on October 7th. I just wanted to know if there is any evidence at all of systematic rape.

We all know by now that 40 beheaded babies story was totally made up. There was no beheaded babies. Not even a single one.

[hepcat]

For all we know, Hamas just hugged all those people on October 7th then left peacefully.

[waitingtoconnect]

Diminishing the attacks is not helpful. They did occur and rape was used as a weapon. Arguing semantics over terms like “systematic rape” does not change the horrors the victims went through.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_ ... _on_Israel

While two wrongs don’t make a right Israel is surrounded by people’s who would actively love to see them all treated in this way. It would make what isis did to the Yasidis look like a picnic.

We need to remember the alternative to Israel whatever it’s flaws is a hamas run Palestine where every Jew is dead and with a massively increased risk to western countries.