Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[Dogstar]

Seem like you are also turning into something like MAGA. Just like MAGA can't admit anything bad about Trump. OO's Biden supporters are also can't admit anything bad about Biden.

Anything that make Biden looks bad are fake news or propaganda.

This isn't Zarathrud. Most people that engage in discussion in R&P recognize, and I think try and operate with the thought in mind, that the world isn't black and white. Zarathrud and I might differ on this issue in some respects, but I don't think he's ever been less than honest and certainly not reductive in what he brings to the table in these discussions. To characterize him to be MAGA-like is especially unfair, and I don't think he, I, or anyone else have trouble admitting that Biden isn't perfect.

So no one should criticize Biden at all because you fear Trump?

That's an oversimplification of an issue. Focusing just on Palestinians, as that seems to be your primary concern in this issue, it is better for them if Biden is President than Trump. Forget every other issue. We have Trump's past history in regards to this area, his support for Israel, as well as his current comments on the area and conflict. Biden is aware of that too. So he has to get re-elected. In order to do that, he has to be tough on Israel so as to appease his left-wing/progressive element in his party. However, he can't be too tough, or walk away from Israel, because then he bleeds support from moderate and conservatives, or one-issue voters (support of Israel). It's a hard tight-rope to walk. It's not a matter of simply doing what he, or elements in American society, believe is moral or not.

[Unagi]

VR,
an analogy for you to consider.

Analogy Disclaimer:
It's just an analogy. It's only meant to clearly show the essence of something I think you are missing. Like all analogies, it will not map entirely to the actual subject at hand (it is not supposed to), but it should offer some avenues for one to consider applying to the subject at hand.


A while back, drivers in snowy weather figured something out. If they were, say, approaching a stop sign and suddenly realized the road was a sheet of ice, they noted that keeping their foot on the brakes actually just made them skid further and didn't offer any meaningful reduction in speed. Instead, if they pumped their brakes; which is to say they actually stopped breaking briefly and then re-applied a brake until it started to skid and repeated that process, they would slow down as best they could. A friend visiting from South Carolina may be shocked to see their friend pumping the breaks, and wishing they would stop screwing around and just slam their foot on the damn break, but they don't have any experience with stopping a car on a sheet of ice. This knowledge has since been turned into a safety feature called "anti-lock brakes", because it's simply not in our nature to do it correctly. We all have a tendency to want to slam on the brakes.


---

So, is it possible that what Biden is doing, is frustrating to us - but it's actually the only way for him to do it? And - while we may not "stop in time for the stop sign" - if he were to go about this any other way, we would not only miss the stop sign, but we would do so at a much higher speed while also veering off the road and onto the sidewalk.



Do you get that? Do you understand what I'm saying?

[Isgrimnur]

Israeli military fires two senior officers as report finds strike on aid workers was in ‘serious violation of commands’

The IDF fired two senior officers and reprimanded a top commander as it admitted a catalog of failures in a drone strike on an aid convoy in Gaza, including that it killed aid workers who had survived an initial attack.

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said Friday that “those who approved the strike were convinced that they were targeting armed Hamas operatives,” calling the attack “a grave mistake stemming from a serious failure due to a mistaken identification.”

It said the strike was carried out in “serious violation of the commands and IDF Standard Operating Procedures,” and dismissed a major and a colonel in reserve. Three other IDF officials were formally reprimanded: the commanders of the brigade and division involved, and the commander of the Southern Command, who bore “overall responsibility.”

[GreenGoo]

So no one should criticize Biden at all because you fear Trump?

It's not that no one can criticize Biden, it's because you don't shut up about it. No one is ignoring the situation, but when it's just article and article and tweet after tweet, a constant drone, it does nothing to advance your stance, and buries us to in repititious cloned articles of previous articles.

We get it, Biden sucks. But there are no other options unless he dies. What else do you want from the forum? Outrage? Some people are in fact outraged. Now what?

[GreenGoo]

Here's an article talking about Biden, what he's doing, the current diplomatic situation, where the US is currently, what other options are available and might be used if Israel's response is unsatisfactory etc etc.

It's not a particularly optimistic or pessimistic article, but I do think it is calm and reasonable coverage without the sheer emotion in most of the articles posted here.

CNN discussing Biden in the current situation with Israel

[Alefroth]

I prefer the first option because that means Biden is not a lying scumbag. Only powerless when dealing with Israel.

What power do you think he should have over a sovereign nation? Is every leader in the world weak then?

[Carpet_pissr]

So no one should criticize Biden at all because you fear Trump?

It's not that no one can criticize Biden, it's because you don't shut up about it. No one is ignoring the situation, but when it's just article and article and tweet after tweet, a constant drone, it does nothing to advance your stance, and buries us to in repititious cloned articles of previous articles.

We get it, Biden sucks. But there are no other options unless he dies. What else do you want from the forum? Outrage? Some people are in fact outraged. Now what?

+1

[El Guapo]

So no one should criticize Biden at all because you fear Trump?

It's not that no one can criticize Biden, it's because you don't shut up about it. No one is ignoring the situation, but when it's just article and article and tweet after tweet, a constant drone, it does nothing to advance your stance, and buries us to in repititious cloned articles of previous articles.

We get it, Biden sucks. But there are no other options unless he dies. What else do you want from the forum? Outrage? Some people are in fact outraged. Now what?

+1

The other thing is that beyond pressuring Israel to take steps to alleviate the humanitarian disaster in Gaza (which Biden is doing), other next steps are not especially obvious. The big one is to put heavy pressure on Israel to agree to a permanent ceasefire. But there's not much of a prospect of a permanent peace treaty or other deal between Israel and Hamas, because the main 'disagreements' between Israel and Hamas is whether Hamas is going to continue to govern Gaza (and relatedly whether Hamas is going to continue to exist). Hamas isn't going to agree to a deal to give up substantially all of its power, and Israel isn't going to agree to a deal that explicitly leaves Hamas in place. So does Biden essentially pressure Israel to unilaterally withdraw from Gaza, thereby leaving Hamas in place?

I hate to throw my hands up and be like "well I guess we can't do anything." But at the same time I don't like pretending that this is simple or easy.

[Zarathud]

Palestine is a 50+ year old problem that multiple US administrations, Democrats and Republicans, have been unable to solve. It infuriates me to have such unrealistic expectations on President Biden that there is an easy solution — which is basically to force a loss on a key U.S. ally.

Biden doesn’t suck. Our options for peace suck.

[Alefroth]

Relax everyone, Trump and Kushner are handling it-

https://www.politicususa.com/2024/04/05 ... e-u-s.html

Trump spoke privately with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the New York Times reported this week. About what? They aren’t saying. On Thursday we learned that Jared Kushner secretly met with Israel’s far-right wing Prime Minister Netanyahu on December 21.

“Netanyahu’s diary, which has become public due to a lawsuit, reveals a meeting he did not previously report: The Israeli Prime Minister hosted Jared Kushner in Tel Aviv, on December 21”.

[Blackhawk]

So don't trust our eyes and ears?

As with anything else, we can trust them somewhat. But we have to know the limits of what our eyes and ears have available to them. If I drive by a store, I can look at it, and I can make guesses about how profitable it is. If I wander in and ask an employee how business is, I can make more guesses. But unless I get the manager to show me the numbers, I have to remember that all of my guesses are just that - guesses, based on incomplete information, and likely wrong.

When it comes to the White House, our eyes and ears are limited to news stories and press releases. And again, I'd like everyone here who knows all of the details of why we have spent decades supporting Israel, what benefits it brings us, what strategic value it has, and what the consequences would be for the future if we lost it to raise their hand. Raise... hello? Nobody?

We are limited to semi-knowledgeable, semi-informed guesses. Our eyes and ears don't tell us enough to know much more than "I don't know." Am I defending everything Biden does? Hell, no. I'm just aware that, by and large, we don't know enough to judge. We do judge, as humans have no choice but to form opinions, but I am a firm believer that we have to remain honest enough with ourselves to rate the value of our opinions.

So, yeah, when someone comes in and declares that their own semi-informed guess is the objective truth and then scolds us when we don't agree with their conclusions for what that means and how it should have been handled, I speak up. Not against you, not against or in favor of Biden, or Israel, or Palestine, but against a bad argument.

[Blackhawk]

It's exacerbated by the fact that we live in an era when poorly informed bad arguments are being taken as inarguable truth, and it's one of the key factors in the slow collapse of our nation. So yeah, when I see more of the same, even if it's in favor of my own views, I call people on it. And I think a lot of other people feel the same. We're tired of conspiracy theories and 'woulda, shoulda, coulda' replacing reason and doubt.

[LawBeefaroni]

Relax everyone, Trump and Kushner are handling it-

https://www.politicususa.com/2024/04/05 ... e-u-s.html

Trump spoke privately with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the New York Times reported this week. About what? They aren’t saying. On Thursday we learned that Jared Kushner secretly met with Israel’s far-right wing Prime Minister Netanyahu on December 21.

“Netanyahu’s diary, which has become public due to a lawsuit, reveals a meeting he did not previously report: The Israeli Prime Minister hosted Jared Kushner in Tel Aviv, on December 21”.

Kushner, who was bailed out to the tune of several hundred million dollars by Qatar and UAE sovereign wealth funds.

[LawBeefaroni]

April 5, 20245:11 PM CDT Updated an hour ago

WASHINGTON, April 5 (Reuters) - The United States is on high alert and preparing for a possible attack by Iran targeting Israeli or American assets in the region in response to Israel's strike on the Iranian embassy in Syria, a U.S. official said on Friday.

"We're definitely at a high state of vigilance," the official said in confirming a CNN report that said an attack could come in the next week.

Well, here we go...

[Blackhawk]

[Dogstar]

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-795724

After a bad week of events — killing the WCK aid workers, Iran threatening to respond after an Israeli attack, the revelation of the Lavender AI and its targeting parameters, AND PRESSURE FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN, Israel is stopping its ground offensive and pulling back troops into north and central Gaza.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Victoria Raverna]

So it is really that easy? Just threaten to hold military aid is enough.

[Unagi]

So it is really that easy? Just threaten to hold military aid is enough.

lol


Is this a serious post?

From you?

Oh wait. Of course it is.

So, I guess your next take is “if this was so easy, why didn’t he do it earlier?”

[Unagi]

Also. I’m a little unclear on what “pulling back troops into Northern and Central Gaza” means here.

I would have expected the preposition “away” or “out of”, not “into”.

Is he just moving soldiers from the south, northward?

[Alefroth]

So it is really that easy? Just threaten to hold military aid is enough.

Is it? Why not just say what you feel?

[Dogstar]

Watched an episode of West Wing and it contained this quote which I thought was on point and that I should remember more often in this age where we (or at least I) expect everything to happen as fast as possible:

Max Weber said politics is "the slow boring of hard boards and anyone who seeks to do it must risk his own soul."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GreenGoo]

So it is really that easy? Just threaten to hold military aid is enough.

I'm curious if you realize there is a cost to the US for uttering this threat?

More importantly, talk is cheap, and Netanyahu has no problem doing whatever the hell he feels like. We'll see how easy it is when we have the death toll for next week.

[El Guapo]

Also. I’m a little unclear on what “pulling back troops into Northern and Central Gaza” means here.

I would have expected the preposition “away” or “out of”, not “into”.

Is he just moving soldiers from the south, northward?

Yes. As I understand it essentially all Israeli troops in Gaza are currently in southern Gaza.

I'm not totally sure on the significance of this troop movement. Does it mean that the planned invasion of Rafah is off? Is this just semi-normal troop movement? Does it signify desire to reach a long-term ceasefire?

[Victoria Raverna]

So it is really that easy? Just threaten to hold military aid is enough.

I'm curious if you realize there is a cost to the US for uttering this threat?

More importantly, talk is cheap, and Netanyahu has no problem doing whatever the hell he feels like. We'll see how easy it is when we have the death toll for next week.

And what is this cost? Maybe you can explain it so it is clear.

BTW, not uttering that threat has no cost to US? No cost to Biden?

[Dogstar]

Iran reportedly said that it will refrain from reprisals for the IDF air attack that killed a general in Damascus if a ceasefire is reached.

Iran informed the US that it would refrain from responding to the airstrike in which senior Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) commanders were killed in Damascus if a ceasefire in Gaza is reached, Jadeh Iran reported on Sunday.

[hepcat]

Iran wants Israel to keep the siege going. But I guess publicly it serves them best to pretend they don't.

[GreenGoo]

And what is this cost? Maybe you can explain it so it is clear.

BTW, not uttering that threat has no cost to US? No cost to Biden?

Ok, good, you're starting to understand everything has a cost. The problem is that you only understand the costs that you can see. You don't have enough imagination to understand the costs that you can't see, that you don't have the security clearance to see.

The point here is that now the US is at odds with a close ally. I think you *seriously* over-estimate the cost to the US for doing nothing in this case, even considering the cost of world criticism, and under-estimate the cost to the US of pushing Israel away, their decades long ally in a volatile region with open hostility towards the US.

Will this save lives? God, I hope so, but it's certainly not guaranteed.

[Victoria Raverna]

You actually have the security clearance and know the exact cost? Or you just think you know?

[GreenGoo]

You actually have the security clearance and know the exact cost? Or you just think you know?

I understand that people such as yourself are willing to push the red button because they were told not to and that it would be "bad", never for a moment believing that anyone knows more than you or that it was good advice. How bad could it be? You don't know, but push it anyway because you can't imagine anything beyond the red button.

I understand that people such as yourself will attempt to argue themselves around any presented evidence, *still* not understanding that each individual piece is not the entirety. In fact, many of the costs won't even be concrete, and for people such as yourself, demanding evidence, not concrete is the same as non-existent.

That's why the drumpf's of the world need to be kept as far away from the red button as possible.

I realize you think you're being clever, asking for details because obviously there aren't any, but even the smallest self-awareness would make you realize that you don't know the details of any trade agreements between the two countries, military co-defense agreements, etc etc. Plurilateral agreements. Mutual recognition agreements/arrangements. Foreign investment promotion and protection agreements.

Hell, in a country with the rule of law, it might not even be LEGAL to stop shipments of arms, if trade agreement becomes international law and no President having uni-lateral control of the country's commerce.

So that's my attempt to show you that you don't understand everything.

The short version is that you don't know what you're talking about, and your interests are not the USA's interests, and their government doesn't give 2 shits what you think about this.

Finally, I'm actually on your side, but you keep opening your mouth like you think you are adding to the conversation. You are not. Be quiet and pay more attention. That's what I've been trying to do.

Feel free to comment again when you have some insights.

[Freyland]

How bad could it be? You don't know, but push it anyway because you can't imagine anything beyond the red button.

For the record, this is one of the more poignant things people could read on the internet today. Or this year.

[em2nought]

If the Democrat Cartel wants to push Israel away from us, I'm sure the Israelis could get more bang for their shekels from Chyna or Russia. They did fly Messerschmitt Bf 109s at one time so... Technically, I guess they were Czechoslovakian-made Avia S-199 clones of ME 109s.

[hepcat]

Maybe we can convince Trumpers that they need to go to Israel to help fight off...well...we'll make something up. We can just say Mexico shares a border with Israel AND the United States. Trumpers aren't exactly Mensa material. The important thing is pulling those weeds out.

[em2nought]

Maybe we can convince Trumpers that they need to go to Israel to help fight off...well...we'll make something up. We can just say Mexico shares a border with Israel AND the United States. Trumpers aren't exactly Mensa material. The important thing is pulling those weeds out.

You must have some sort of alert set to go off whenever I post?

[hepcat]

Nah, you post plenty of other stupid shit I ignore.

[Alefroth]

If the Democrat Cartel wants to push Israel away from us, I'm sure the Israelis could get more bang for their shekels from Chyna or Russia.

Tell us how clueless you are...

[Blackhawk]

You actually have the security clearance and know the exact cost? Or you just think you know?

Is it necessary to know the exact cost to know that there's a high cost? I don't have to know exactly how long I'd end up in prison for shooting someone to know that it's more time than I'm interested in spending in prison. I don't have to know the exact price of a mansion in New York to know that I can't afford it.

Israel is literally our only ally in the region, a region that has been both the source of our greatest immediate threats of the past few decades, and has been central in the tug-of-war between the US and Russia since the start of the Cold War. It is a potential military beachhead, the only one that we wouldn't have to earn with blood. It's also likely a source of significant intelligence, home to who knows how many US agencies' mideast operations, and who knows what else. How many attacks have we been warned about via Israel, or via intelligence from US agencies working from there?

I don't know the answers to some of those questions, but I know that the answers are significant enough that losing access to all of that isn't in our best interest. Balancing our interests with the Palestinians' interests is the US government's job, and it's their job and duty to keep that balance in our favor - even if some of us would be willing to accept it being otherwise.

If Biden just casually threw all of that away, that would be a genuine dereliction of his duty. I'm personally in favor of self-sacrifice for the benefit of others, but I'm not the President, in charge of determining the best course for hundreds of millions of people, plus their descendants.

[Victoria Raverna]

No. But I was referred to this:

The problem is that you only understand the costs that you can see. You don't have enough imagination to understand the costs that you can't see, that you don't have the security clearance to see.

Seem like either you need a good imagination or maybe just think that you have a good imagination. Or you need security clearance.

I wondered which was it that GreenGoo had. Fact or only imagination.

I think he overestimated the cost of making Netanyahu upset. No wonder US looks weak when dealing with the conflict, if the States Dept. and Biden worried about offending Netanyahu, there is not much you can do to stop Israel. US can only beg Netanyahu nicely.

As for the region being the source of your greatest immediate threats of the past few decades. I think maybe Israel was actually part of the reason for that. Now I'm using my imagination, if there is this parallel dimension where Britain never "gave" Palestine to zionists, maybe US has more allies in the region. Maybe Saudi Arabia is going to be a close ally to US. Maybe Palestina is going to be a close ally to US. Extremist muslim terrorists can't use Israel to recruit people to join them.

But that was just imagination which doesn't mean much. Just like the imagination of this huge cost for offending Netanyahu doesn't mean it is real. I don't think you're going to lose Israel as an ally by not helping them in committing genocide. As much as US needs Israel as an ally. Israel also needs US.

[waitingtoconnect]

bibi wants to stay in power at all costs. A trump presidency increases those odds and under Israeli law while the war keeps running he can’t get kicked out.

So everything he is doing prolongs the war. Because it will take 2-3% off Biden in swing states and in a close election that will get his buddy trump back in.

With peace everyone forgets all about this in a month and Biden will crush trump.

[Victoria Raverna]

A good reason for Biden to threaten Israel to pressure them to stop, right? I wonder why it is so hard to do that? is it because of AIPAC?

bibi wants to stay in power at all costs. A trump presidency increases those odds and under Israeli law while the war keeps running he can’t get kicked out.

So everything he is doing prolongs the war. Because it will take 2-3% off Biden in swing states and in a close election that will get his buddy trump back in.

With peace everyone forgets all about this in a month and Biden will crush trump.

It is strange that Trump also think the war need to end quickly. He doesn't think the conflict can help him winning by making Biden looks bad?

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/04/poli ... index.html

“What I said very plainly is get it over with, and let’s get back to peace and stop killing people. And that’s a very simple statement. Get it over with. They’ve got to finish what they finish. They have to get it done. Get it over with, and get it over with fast, because we have to, you have to get back to normalcy and peace,” Trump told The Hugh Hewitt Show.

[waitingtoconnect]

Anyone who gets into bed with trump gets burned. But Bibi is going to jail the moment he leaves office.

And Trump lies. He doesn’t care about Israel. He cares about what will get him votes.

Matt Brooks, the chief executive officer of the Republican Jewish Coalition, argued that Trump’s position would not impact his standing with Jewish voters, given that Trump has said Israel should “finish up your war” and “get the job done.”

“Trump is giving the Israelis a blank check to finish the job and eliminate Hamas but be cognizant of the fact that time is not their ally and each day that passes public opinion is getting worse,” Brooks said. “He said exactly the same thing literally everyone in the Jewish community is saying right now.”

Also his son in law has proposed expelling all Gazans and turning it into a set of beachside suburbs for the rich.