Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[Victoria Raverna]

One has a history of trying to broker peace deals in the Middle East (even if sometimes those deals get tripped up by matters of national safety/interests), the other has a history of calling for the complete annihilation of other nations and death to all Jews. Which do you choose to trust or believe?

None? One stated repeatedly that there'll be no ceasefire and vetoed UN resolution about ceasefire 3 times but apparently was lying about that and really wanted a ceasefire. The other one repeatedly called for ceasefire but apparently was lying about that and didn't really want a ceasefire.

[hepcat]

What's your end goal here? Just tell us so we can move on.

[Unagi]

One has a history of trying to broker peace deals in the Middle East (even if sometimes those deals get tripped up by matters of national safety/interests), the other has a history of calling for the complete annihilation of other nations and death to all Jews. Which do you choose to trust or believe?

None? One stated repeatedly that there'll be no ceasefire and vetoed UN resolution about ceasefire 3 times but apparently was lying about that and really wanted a ceasefire. The other one repeatedly called for ceasefire but apparently was lying about that and didn't really want a ceasefire.

You are right, VR. You have made your point well and clear. I speak for everyone here when I say that we all accept the things you are saying as true and factual. We accept your views and opinions on this entirely and we thank you, formally, for giving us your insights and sharing your wisdom.

If I can get a few +1s, I think we can maybe wrap this up?

[hepcat]

Ha, I now veto your attempt at a ceasefire!

[Victoria Raverna]

What's your end goal here? Just tell us so we can move on.

There is no end goal. Just a discussion about Israel-United States relations and associated politics in the place for that.

[hepcat]

But it's not a discussion because you repeatedly refuse to consider any other opinion whatsoever. A lot of folks here have said "you're right that we should do more" and tried to consider your side of things at times. You refuse to give anyone else the same consideration and just hit back with youtube videos that you think show that Biden wants to keep the war going. Even though I think you know that's ridiculous and you're just in the "crossed arm, refuse to budge" state of discourse. The alternative is that you really do believe the United States is evil and wants the war to continue because we love seeing images of destruction, secretly want Palestinians wiped from the face of the Earth, we're controlled by a consortium of evil Jews, or whatever....which begs the question: why have we TRIED to broker a two state solution in the past, and called out Israel on settlements?

p.s. I'd also like to point out that Hamas has refused a ceasefire as well.

[Victoria Raverna]

I think US politicians that are in charge are too afraid of offending Israel including Biden. Maybe it is more like afraid of offending pro-Israel voters. Not sure which is it.

I considered other opinion but I just don't agree with some of them. Same as you don't agree with me. Very normal things.

[hepcat]

I've yet to see you agree with anyone that hasn't expressed the same opinions as yourself. Well, other than those that said Hamas' attacks on Oct. 7th should be viewed in the context that Israel was partially to blame.

[Victoria Raverna]

I've yet to see you agree with anyone that hasn't expressed the same opinions as yourself.

Are you sure about that? Maybe you missed them. Or maybe you're too angry with things that I posted that you just couldn't see them.

Honestly I find it is surprising that you're offended by what I posted in the past (before I intentionally trolled you). Why is it not acceptable to show when Biden or his administration wasn't doing a good job in handling the war? Even if you don't agree with it, it was not personal unless you're Biden or works for Biden. You said it is okay to criticize Biden then why you have problem with me posting videos that criticized him or his administration?

[hepcat]

The passive aggressive attempts to portray anyone who doesn't agree with you and pushes back as being unreasonable, angry and getting personal is getting a bit old. There are some who have taken it to a personal level, but let's be honest, you have done the same more than once....this reply being one of those times. Your admission that you're just trolling at times being the other, of course.

Show me one instance where you have even considered that perhaps Biden and the United States can't stop Israel by simply telling them to.

Note: This stopped being a discussion about Israel-United States relations a long time ago and became a place for one person to air grievances and post youtube videos without context. I'm not angry, I'm just tired. And I think I'm done...but hopefully this time I won't get pulled back in.

[Victoria Raverna]

The passive aggressive attempts to portray anyone who doesn't agree with you and pushes back as being unreasonable, angry and getting personal is getting a bit old. There are some who have taken it to a personal level, but let's be honest, you have done the same more than once....this reply being one of those times. Your admission that you're just trolling at times being the other, of course.

Show me one instance where you have even considered that perhaps Biden and the United States can't stop Israel by simply telling them to.

Actually that was my point, I agree with you that US can't stop Israel by simply telling them to. For months Biden's administration told us that they asked Israel to be more careful, to avoid killing civilians, etc. And we can see it was not effective.

Israel only showed some restrain after US threaten to put condition on future military aid to Israel after the killing of 7 WCK staffs.

[Unagi]

I'm giving up on trying to make Biden's supporters here admit that Biden can be wrong.

Are you just too weak or were you just wrong when you said this?

[Kurth]

Is it too late for a +1 to Unagi's post above???

[waitingtoconnect]

I think US politicians that are in charge are too afraid of offending Israel including Biden. Maybe it is more like afraid of offending pro-Israel voters. Not sure which is it.

I considered other opinion but I just don't agree with some of them. Same as you don't agree with me. Very normal things.

It’s practicality. Israel is a democracy and while flawed is beset on all sides by peoples who’s rather enjoy making October 7 look like a picnic.

There isn’t any other reliable ally in the region. And by reliable I mean who will always take our side. The Turks don’t and the saudis don’t.

The alternative is a lot of dead Israelis and Hamas/Isis running the region.

It’s easy to say Biden is bad but Trump will sell out the Gazans so his family can make money off real estate and a golf course. He’ll also reintroduce the Muslim ban which could likely apply to many more nations than it did originally.

[Victoria Raverna]

What? Tucker Carlson attacked Christian leaders for supporting Israel? Did Putin order him to do that?

[waitingtoconnect]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... -hamas-war

Evangelicals (some) believe that supporting Israel will help trigger the end times.

Tucker doesn’t want the end times. It’s bad for business and he knows where he’s likely to end up.

[Kurth]

It feels like we’re one bad Iranian decision away from full scale regional war in the Middle East.

Iranian Attack Expected on Israel in the Next Two Days

TEL AVIV—Israel is preparing for a direct attack from Iran on southern or northern Israel as soon as Friday or Saturday, according to a person familiar with the matter. A person briefed by the Iranian leadership, however, said that while plans to attack are being discussed, no final decision has been made.

The options Iran is considering include direct attacks within Israel’s borders, including ballistic missile strikes on Israel’s power and desalination infrastructure. They are also considering an attack on Israeli nuclear facilities at Dimona.

Iran’s going to do something for certain. The big question is, do they use proxies for a lower scale attack on the border or on Israeli interests outside of Israel, or do they directly attack Israel itself. If they choose the latter, the response from Israel we be overwhelming. All bets will be off. Full on escalation.

I hope cooler heads prevail inside the Islamic Republic.

[Grifman]

It feels like we’re one bad Iranian decision away from full scale regional war in the Middle East.

Iranian Attack Expected on Israel in the Next Two Days

TEL AVIV—Israel is preparing for a direct attack from Iran on southern or northern Israel as soon as Friday or Saturday, according to a person familiar with the matter. A person briefed by the Iranian leadership, however, said that while plans to attack are being discussed, no final decision has been made.

The options Iran is considering include direct attacks within Israel’s borders, including ballistic missile strikes on Israel’s power and desalination infrastructure. They are also considering an attack on Israeli nuclear facilities at Dimona.

Iran’s going to do something for certain. The big question is, do they use proxies for a lower scale attack on the border or on Israeli interests outside of Israel, or do they directly attack Israel itself. If they choose the latter, the response from Israel we be overwhelming. All bets will be off. Full on escalation.

I hope cooler heads prevail inside the Islamic Republic.

I get why they are pissed and would want to retaliate, but these actions, if carried out, are pretty disproportionate to what Israel did. Israel hit a consulate, and killed, what, half a dozen people or so? Hitting power, desalinization and nuke facilities? That's asking for war.

[Dogstar]

Israel has to overfly a number of countries in order to retaliate against Iran directly, any of which might might be keen on Israel doing so. Moreover, it seems like it would be easier to draw others into a larger conflict, which is what it seems like Iran wants. Iran might also figure that Israel might respond disproportionately to, which has been a theme, further galvanizing world reaction against Israel.


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[Blackhawk]

Hitting nuclear plants in Israel won't make Egypt, Jordan, or Saudi Arabia very happy with Iran.

[Alefroth]

It feels like we’re one bad Iranian decision away from full scale regional war in the Middle East.

Hasn't that always been the case?

[waitingtoconnect]

Israel has to overfly a number of countries in order to retaliate against Iran directly, any of which might might be keen on Israel doing so. Moreover, it seems like it would be easier to draw others into a larger conflict, which is what it seems like Iran wants. Iran might also figure that Israel might respond disproportionately to, which has been a theme, further galvanizing world reaction against Israel.


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There are four main players in the Middle East all of which are on proxy wars against the others. It’s been this way for years including when we were allies with all of them (when the shah ran Iran).

The saudis and Turks hate each other with a passion but much prefer the Israelis because Israel is no threat to their economic interests. Iran hates Israel but also the saudis and Turks with whom it has territorial and religious disputes.

Right now each is in a proxy war with the other 3. Israel is unlikely to hit Iran directly it will let us or the Turks or Saudis do it.

[Grifman]

Israel has to overfly a number of countries in order to retaliate against Iran directly, any of which might might be keen on Israel doing so. Moreover, it seems like it would be easier to draw others into a larger conflict, which is what it seems like Iran wants. Iran might also figure that Israel might respond disproportionately to, which has been a theme, further galvanizing world reaction against Israel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There are four main players in the Middle East all of which are on proxy wars against the others. It’s been this way for years including when we were allies with all of them (when the shah ran Iran).

The saudis and Turks hate each other with a passion but much prefer the Israelis because Israel is no threat to their economic interests. Iran hates Israel but also the saudis and Turks with whom it has territorial and religious disputes.

Right now each is in a proxy war with the other 3. Israel is unlikely to hit Iran directly it will let us or the Turks or Saudis do it.

Thus makes little sense. Neither Turkry nor Saudi is going to attack Iran on behalf of Israel. And Israel is not going to let a direct strike on their territory go unanswered. They have to maintain their reputation as the biggest and baddest army in the neighborhood.

[Dogstar]

Iran is apparently launching a drone attack on Israel. Israel’s emergency 767 is up. Jordan has closed its airspace. More developments likely to come…


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[LordMortis]

Also...

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 024-04-13/

DUBAI/JERUSALEM, April 13 (Reuters) - Iran's Revolutionary Guards seized a cargo ship in the Strait of Hormuz on Saturday, saying the vessel was linked to Israel, which went on high alert over a possible direct Iranian attack that would ramp up a decades-old standoff between the regional foes.

Jordan on Saturday declared its airspace closed, in a possible precautionary move given the likelihood of its territory being overflown by any missiles exchanged by Iran and Israel.
Earlier on Saturday, Iran's state-run IRNA news agency reported that a Guards helicopter had boarded and taken into Iranian waters the Portuguese flagged MSC Aries.
MSC, which operates the Aries, confirmed that Iran had seized the ship and said it was working "with the relevant authorities" for its safe return and the wellbeing of its 25 crew.

Not good. I won't condone what Iran is doing, but damn Israel should not have been gone bad cop on Gaza. I don't know what we can do, but whatever it is, I hope it's the best of the bad choices. Also, generally speaking, I am so glad TFG is no CiC. I don't think he's a warmonger. I actually think he's a coward and doesn't like the military; a coward who would have been ecstatic to push Israel in even harder and then later get us involved solely to try and make himself look the hero... And then there's Ukraine... And China...

[Blackhawk]

And they're hijacking Israeli ships (sailing under a Portuguese flag.)

Iran has seized a commercial ship with links to Israel as it passed through the Strait of Hormuz early on Saturday.

The MSC Aries was boarded by Iranian special forces about 50 miles (80km) off the coast of the United Arab Emirates, a statement from the vessel's operator MSC said.

Footage obtained by Reuters news agency appeared to show troops rappelling onto the vessel from a helicopter.

The Portuguese-flagged ship is linked to Israeli billionaire Eyal Ofer.

[Blackhawk]

...and Biden's heading back to Washington early.

Where's the Doomsday Clock these days?

[Grifman]

Drones have been launched towards Israel and are several hours away. They are likely to be followed up with missiles to be timed to arrive at the same time according to experts.

Jordan has apparently stated that they will shoot down any drones that overfly their territory.

[Dogstar]

Reports of drones from Yemen as well.


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[em2nought]

Stolen elections have consequences.

[Alefroth]

Stolen elections have consequences.

How did Bibi steal the election?

[Grifman]

I have seen videos of supposed missile strikes in Israel. The Israelis have promised significant retaliation.

[Grifman]

[Alefroth]

I have seen videos of supposed missile strikes in Israel. The Israelis have promised significant retaliation.

I'm surprised they haven't already.

[Grifman]

Amazing:

[Unagi]

So, it's confirmed that Iran has sent ballistic missiles that were sent from a distance to go exo-atmospheric?

(complete aside: that's some cool space orbital debris footage, probably a preview to wars of the future)

[Alefroth]

Not surprisingly, the U.S. has downed some drones.

[Blackhawk]

Nuclear(ish?) powers exchanging fire. What could go wrong?

[Grifman]

[Kraken]

I think this was less an attempt to wreak havoc than to show off capability. Ideally Israel will go "whoa, nice" and Iran will go "oh bummer." Dicks having been swung, that will be that.

Ideally.