Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[$iljanus]

But I question whether it makes sense to cut off UNRWA funding at this moment and as the Gazan population is so desperately in need of assistance. Cutting off aid due to the actions of a dozen out of 13K employees seems like this is being used more as an excuse than as a response to the actual wrong. Also, as the NYT article points out, this isn’t necessarily in Israel’s interests: Much of the humanitarian assistance mission that UNRWA currently takes up will fall to Israel if UNRWA funding runs out, and that’s not something Israel wants to take on.

From the way they are conducting the war, I don’t think aid to Gaza is at the top of their agenda. I could certainly see the Israeli government saying that it’s Hamas that has caused this and once aid flows into Gaza it’s not their problem if no one assumes the responsibility for distribution. And are we really going to pull our aid to Israel over this?

[LawBeefaroni]

West Bank:

JENIN, West Bank (AP) — Israeli forces disguised as civilian women and medical workers stormed a hospital Tuesday in the occupied West Bank, killing three Palestinian militants in a dramatic raid that underscored how deadly violence has spilled into the territory from the war in Gaza.

[Kurth]

This is a positive sign, right? Israel is carrying out exactly the type of special forces, targeted missions people have been calling for rather than directing a massive attack.

3 Hamas operatives hiding out in the hospital were taken out. No reports of civil casualties or collateral damage.

This is a good thing, right?

[LordMortis]

Is Hamas and Palestinian militants the same thing? Real question, not rhetorical.

[LawBeefaroni]

If you're asking me, yeah, assuming the targets were legit it's a relatively clean operation. Psychologically it probably sucks for the hospital staff and patients but it beats having the whole building bombed.

Don't know if this signals a wholesale change in strategy or if it's just because this is in the West Bank and not Gaza.

[LawBeefaroni]

Is Hamas and Palestinian militants the same thing? Real question, not rhetorical.

These three were Hamas.

The military said in Tuesday’s hospital raid, forces killed Mohammed Jalamneh, 27, who it said was planning an imminent attack. The two other men killed, brothers Basel and Mohammed Ghazawi, were hiding inside the hospital and were involved in attacks, the military claimed.

The military did not provide details on how the three were killed. Its statement said Jalamneh was armed with a pistol, but made no mention of an exchange of fire.

Hamas claimed the three men as members, calling the operation “a cowardly assassination.”

[Kurth]

Is Hamas and Palestinian militants the same thing? Real question, not rhetorical.

Definitely not. There are many different flavors of Palestinian militants. Not all of them are Hamas. Why do you ask?

[Kurth]

If you're asking me, yeah, assuming the targets were legit it's a relatively clean operation. Psychologically it probably sucks for the hospital staff and patients but it beats having the whole building bombed.

Don't know if this signals a wholesale change in strategy or if it's just because this is in the West Bank and not Gaza.

Good point: It may well be the different approach is based on the hospital being in the West Bank. Israel isn’t about to start carpet bombing the West Bank.

[LordMortis]

Is Hamas and Palestinian militants the same thing? Real question, not rhetorical.

Definitely not. There are many different flavors of Palestinian militants. Not all of them are Hamas. Why do you ask?

JENIN, West Bank (AP) — Israeli forces disguised as civilian women and medical workers stormed a hospital Tuesday in the occupied West Bank, killing three Palestinian militants in a dramatic raid that underscored how deadly violence has spilled into the territory from the war in Gaza.

[Kurth]

Is Hamas and Palestinian militants the same thing? Real question, not rhetorical.

Definitely not. There are many different flavors of Palestinian militants. Not all of them are Hamas. Why do you ask?

JENIN, West Bank (AP) — Israeli forces disguised as civilian women and medical workers stormed a hospital Tuesday in the occupied West Bank, killing three Palestinian militants in a dramatic raid that underscored how deadly violence has spilled into the territory from the war in Gaza.

Got it. The article wasn’t very helpful in that respect. Definitely Hamas.

If you are interested in learning more about the many, many, many different flavors of Palestinian militants, Wikipedia is your friend: Palestinian Political Violence.

Palestinian groups that have been involved in politically motivated violence include the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), Fatah, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine – General Command (PFLP-GC), the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Abu Nidal Organization, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas.[20] Several of these groups are considered terrorist organizations by the governments of the United States,[1] Canada,[2] the United Kingdom,[3] Japan,[21] New Zealand[4] and the European Union.[22][5]

Palestinian political violence has targeted Israelis, Palestinians, Lebanese, Jordanians,[23] Egyptians,[24] Americans[25] and citizens of other countries.[26] Attacks have taken place both within Israel and the Palestinian territories as well as internationally and have been directed at both military and civilian targets. Tactics have included hostage taking, plane hijacking, boat hijacking, stone and improvised weapon throwing, improvised explosive device (IED), knife attack, shooting spree, vehicle-ramming attack, car bomb, suicide attack, assassination and various bombings.

There’s also a very long run down in that Wiki entry on each of the prominent Palestinian militant groups, both past and present, with some of their history, allegiances and leadership.

[Pyperkub]

But there is one essential similarity - that violence is the way. And there are far too many in leadership who will use that.

[Victoria Raverna]

It is probably hard to think non violence is the way when they see how peace worked for them with Israel settlers keep expanding and stealing their lands at West Bank.

[Victoria Raverna]

Israel general said those were his troops and there were mistake. This is war.

[Victoria Raverna]

Western media haven't reported this so I have to link the one from TRT world:



If they're killed by Israel force, I think this is a very clear war crime.

[Dogstar]

US and England considering recognizing Palestine post-war.

From other sources (and this one), it seems like the State Department and the NSC are not entirely on the same page. The notion seems to be that in exchange for normalized relationships with Saudi Arabia and for the Saudi probably paying a chunk of the price tag of rebuilding Gaza, the Palestinians would get a state. I'm not sure who would be running or administering that state, and I'm not sure how you would get a Netanyahu regime to sign off on this given their opposition to a two-state solution. Plus, certain individuals and groups (like the author of the article) are going to see it as a reward for terrorism.

[Victoria Raverna]

Hopefully she is still alive and safe:

[Dogstar]

Updates:

Speaker Johnson plans to advance a standalone $17B Israel funding bill (apart from anything to do with the border or Ukraine) this week.

Senator Bernie Sanders comes out even more vociferously against further Israel aid under the current circumstances. Frames it in terms of not supporting Netanyahu's war and its prosecution as opposed to Israel. https://x.com/SenSanders/status/1754232 ... 56767?s=20

The IDF ran a Telegram channel targeted at Israelis called 72 Virgins without authorization. I'm not going to list the specific content that's talked about in the article, but the channel featured graphic videos and messages from incidents of October 9 forward that focused on being anti-Muslim/anti-Palestinian. Think stuff about the level (if not below) the worst corners of 4Chan combined with video and images, except based on real world stuff and run by members of the army.

[Victoria Raverna]

About the telegram channel. you would think that since the target audience is Israeli, they would post video of brutality of Hamas to gain support on the war from Israeli.

Instead of that, it was a channel that post Israeli soldiers torturing and killing Palestinians. So I guess it'll only work to gain support from Israeli if there are a lot of Israeli that hate Palestinians and think that videos that show Palestinians being killed or tortured are funny.

[Kurth]

About the telegram channel. you would think that since the target audience is Israeli, they would post video of brutality of Hamas to gain support on the war from Israeli.

Instead of that, it was a channel that post Israeli soldiers torturing and killing Palestinians. So I guess it'll only work to gain support from Israeli if there are a lot of Israeli that hate Palestinians and think that videos that show Palestinians being killed or tortured are funny.

Is that what the videos on Telegram were about? I wasn’t able to access the article and didn’t really understand the original post. If it was a video channel set up by the IDF to target Israelis with videos showing bad actions committed by the IDF directed toward Palestinians, that’s incredibly strange, and I need someone to explain what’s going on. I don’t get it.

[Blackhawk]

If it was a video channel set up by the IDF to target Israelis with videos showing bad actions committed by the IDF directed toward Palestinians, that’s incredibly strange, and I need someone to explain what’s going on. I don’t get it.

Revenge porn.

[Victoria Raverna]

About the telegram channel. you would think that since the target audience is Israeli, they would post video of brutality of Hamas to gain support on the war from Israeli.

Instead of that, it was a channel that post Israeli soldiers torturing and killing Palestinians. So I guess it'll only work to gain support from Israeli if there are a lot of Israeli that hate Palestinians and think that videos that show Palestinians being killed or tortured are funny.

Is that what the videos on Telegram were about? I wasn’t able to access the article and didn’t really understand the original post. If it was a video channel set up by the IDF to target Israelis with videos showing bad actions committed by the IDF directed toward Palestinians, that’s incredibly strange, and I need someone to explain what’s going on. I don’t get it.

This is the original article before IDF admitted that the channel is operated by them that showed some examples of what was on the channel:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/sec ... bd01c30000

"Burning their mother ... You won't believe the video we got! You can hear the crunch of their bones. We'll upload it right away, get ready." Images of Palestinian captives and the bodies of terrorists were captioned "Exterminating the roaches ... exterminating the Hamas rats. ... Share this beauty." The following text accompanies a video of an Israeli soldier allegedly dipping machine gun bullets in pork fat: "What a man!!!!! Lubricates bullets with lard. You won't get your virgins." And: "Garbage juice!!!! Another dead terrorist!! You have to watch it with the sound, you'll die laughing."

Each night, the channel posts a daily summary that includes several IDF updates on the activity in Gaza, with promises of exclusive images and videos. "As always, we're the first to bring you the information from the field," it says. "We have crazy recordings of terrorists, how can we put it, swimming with the fishes. We have documentation no one else has. We promise much more!!!"

On October 14, alongside the caption, "Exclusive video of a good night, don't forget to share and repost," was a video of an Israeli vehicle repeatedly driving over the body of a terrorist. "Very good, Gershon!!! Run him over run him over!!!! Screw the bastards! Flatten them," the accompanying post said.

[Kurth]

If it was a video channel set up by the IDF to target Israelis with videos showing bad actions committed by the IDF directed toward Palestinians, that’s incredibly strange, and I need someone to explain what’s going on. I don’t get it.

Revenge porn.

Not trying to be dense, but I still don’t get it (even after a helpful PM from Dogstar). This channel appears to have been run by the IDF’s psychological warfare operations group:

The IDF Operations Directorate's Influencing Department, which is responsible for psychological warfare operations against the enemy and foreign audiences, operates a Telegram channel called 72 Virgins – Uncensored, which targets Israeli audiences and shows the bodies of Hamas terrorists

Why would they be aiming this stuff internally to an Israeli audience? Is it akin to WWII newsreels trying to inform but also push propaganda supporting the U.S. war effort? If that’s it, I’m really at a loss to understand how this is the kind of propaganda that would help generate support for the war in Gaza. I can’t get past the fact that it seems more likely to do exactly the opposite.

[Victoria Raverna]

Maybe the goal is to desensitize Israeli. Turning killing Palestinians into joke and funny videos.

[Blackhawk]

How many Americans get giddy at a video of a conservative "pwning the libs"? My thought was that their goal was to encourage similar sentiments in those who already dislike the Palestinians. Build it up enough, it spreads. Spread it enough, those against it lose influence.

That's just a guess, though. They're unlikely to explain their motivations.

[Zarathud]

Israelis serving up their own propaganda and war porn. Disgusting, but punished.

[LawBeefaroni]

If it was a video channel set up by the IDF to target Israelis with videos showing bad actions committed by the IDF directed toward Palestinians, that’s incredibly strange, and I need someone to explain what’s going on. I don’t get it.

Revenge porn.

Not trying to be dense, but I still don’t get it (even after a helpful PM from Dogstar). This channel appears to have been run by the IDF’s psychological warfare operations group:

The IDF Operations Directorate's Influencing Department, which is responsible for psychological warfare operations against the enemy and foreign audiences, operates a Telegram channel called 72 Virgins – Uncensored, which targets Israeli audiences and shows the bodies of Hamas terrorists

Why would they be aiming this stuff internally to an Israeli audience? Is it akin to WWII newsreels trying to inform but also push propaganda supporting the U.S. war effort? If that’s it, I’m really at a loss to understand how this is the kind of propaganda that would help generate support for the war in Gaza. I can’t get past the fact that it seems more likely to do exactly the opposite.

Someone thought this was a good idea. It wasn't. Another example of low quality people getting jobs they shouldn't.

[Max Peck]

Hopefully she is still alive and safe:

Hind Rajab, 6, found dead in Gaza days after phone calls for help

A six-year-old girl who went missing in Gaza City last month has been found dead, along with several of her relatives and two paramedics who tried to save her, after they appear to have come under fire from Israeli tanks.

Hind Rajab was fleeing the city in a car with her aunt, uncle and three cousins at the time.

Audio recordings of calls between Hind and emergency call operators suggest that the six-year-old was the only one left alive in the car, hiding from Israeli forces among the bodies of her relatives.

Her pleas for someone to rescue her ended when the phone line was cut amid the sound of more gunfire.

Paramedics from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) managed on Saturday to reach the area, which had previously been closed off as an active combat zone.

They found the black Kia car Hind had been travelling in - its windscreen and dashboard smashed to pieces, bullet holes scattered across the side.

One paramedic told journalists that Hind was among the six bodies found inside the car, all of which showed signs of gunfire and shelling.

A few metres away were the remains of another vehicle - completely burnt out, its engine spilling onto the ground. This, the Red Crescent says, is the ambulance sent to fetch Hind.

Its crew - Yusuf al-Zeino and Ahmed al-Madhoun - were killed when the ambulance was bombed by Israeli forces, the organisation says.

In a statement, the PRCS accused Israel of deliberately targeting the ambulance, as soon as it arrived at the scene on 29 January.

"The [Israeli] occupation deliberately targeted the Red Crescent crew despite obtaining prior coordination to allow the ambulance to arrive at the scene to rescue the child Hind," it said.

The PRCS told the BBC that it had taken several hours to coordinate access with the Israeli army, in order to send paramedics to Hind.

"We got the coordination, we got the green light," PRCS spokeswoman, Nibal Farsakh, told me earlier this week. "On arrival, [the crew] confirmed that they could see the car where Hind was trapped, and they could see her. The last thing we heard is continuous gunfire."

If the IDF's goal is making people like me think they're just as bad as Hamas, then they're doing a bang-up job. Targeting first responders is a classic terrorist tactic, although coordinating with the paramedics before they murder them is a luxury your more conventional non-state terrorist doesn't enjoy.

[Alefroth]

If the IDF's goal is making people like me think they're just as bad as Hamas, then they're doing a bang-up job. Targeting first responders is a classic terrorist tactic, although coordinating with the paramedics before they murder them is a luxury your more conventional non-state terrorist doesn't enjoy.

It's Hamas' goal and they are crushing it.

[gbasden]

If the IDF's goal is making people like me think they're just as bad as Hamas, then they're doing a bang-up job. Targeting first responders is a classic terrorist tactic, although coordinating with the paramedics before they murder them is a luxury your more conventional non-state terrorist doesn't enjoy.

It's Hamas' goal and they are crushing it.

It seems to be Israel's goal as well and it's the one area where they are really cooperating with Hamas. I was a big supporter of Israel growing up, but this has been a huge wake up call.

Note - I am still a big supporter of Jewish people and a Jewish state. I'd just like that state not to be so evilish.

[LawBeefaroni]

I was a big supporter of Israel growing up, but this has been a huge wake up call.

Growing up I routinely heard about how Israel had some of their best spies working in the US and how the Mossad were premier wetworks operators. I grew up not trusting the Israeli government at all. I still don't. But they have always been that enemy of my enemy friend that we routinely support. And they always tried to appear respectable.


What they're doing now is really off the charts though. It's indicative of the general decline worldwide in terms of international order. How many genocides have we watched take place over the just the last 30 years? Off the top of my head: Bosnia, Rwanda, Congo (multiple), Somalia, Sudan, Iraq, Syria, Myanmar...The big difference now is that we see it happening live and still, meh. I guess Syria kind of set the stage for our collective impotent outrage. Seeing kids perforated by barrel bombs and shrugging it off is what we do now.

That is not to say with certainty that Israel is committing genocide here. That's not the point. The point is that if they were, everyone knows no one would stop them. So does it even matter? If they succeed, no one will hold them to account.

[waitingtoconnect]

If the IDF's goal is making people like me think they're just as bad as Hamas, then they're doing a bang-up job. Targeting first responders is a classic terrorist tactic, although coordinating with the paramedics before they murder them is a luxury your more conventional non-state terrorist doesn't enjoy.

It's Hamas' goal and they are crushing it.

It’s Bibis goal.

Netenyanu wants to stay in power because the moment he is no longer in power he could well face trial and jail. Don’t underestimate what he will do to stay in power.

And all this disaster aids his buddy trump get reelected: a man who could quite happily let him kill as many Gazans as he wants as Biden loses support from the young and Muslim Americans in key swing states.

Israel is also divided like we are: some in their religious far right actually celebrated the deaths of their fellows because most who died were left wing Israelis or “immoral” festival goers.

[Victoria Raverna]

Hopefully she is still alive and safe:

Hind Rajab, 6, found dead in Gaza days after phone calls for help

A six-year-old girl who went missing in Gaza City last month has been found dead, along with several of her relatives and two paramedics who tried to save her, after they appear to have come under fire from Israeli tanks.

Hind Rajab was fleeing the city in a car with her aunt, uncle and three cousins at the time.

Audio recordings of calls between Hind and emergency call operators suggest that the six-year-old was the only one left alive in the car, hiding from Israeli forces among the bodies of her relatives.

Her pleas for someone to rescue her ended when the phone line was cut amid the sound of more gunfire.

Paramedics from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) managed on Saturday to reach the area, which had previously been closed off as an active combat zone.

They found the black Kia car Hind had been travelling in - its windscreen and dashboard smashed to pieces, bullet holes scattered across the side.

One paramedic told journalists that Hind was among the six bodies found inside the car, all of which showed signs of gunfire and shelling.

A few metres away were the remains of another vehicle - completely burnt out, its engine spilling onto the ground. This, the Red Crescent says, is the ambulance sent to fetch Hind.

Its crew - Yusuf al-Zeino and Ahmed al-Madhoun - were killed when the ambulance was bombed by Israeli forces, the organisation says.

In a statement, the PRCS accused Israel of deliberately targeting the ambulance, as soon as it arrived at the scene on 29 January.

"The [Israeli] occupation deliberately targeted the Red Crescent crew despite obtaining prior coordination to allow the ambulance to arrive at the scene to rescue the child Hind," it said.

The PRCS told the BBC that it had taken several hours to coordinate access with the Israeli army, in order to send paramedics to Hind.

"We got the coordination, we got the green light," PRCS spokeswoman, Nibal Farsakh, told me earlier this week. "On arrival, [the crew] confirmed that they could see the car where Hind was trapped, and they could see her. The last thing we heard is continuous gunfire."

If the IDF's goal is making people like me think they're just as bad as Hamas, then they're doing a bang-up job. Targeting first responders is a classic terrorist tactic, although coordinating with the paramedics before they murder them is a luxury your more conventional non-state terrorist doesn't enjoy.

Apparently Israeli propagandist responded to the report by posting a link to old article from Oct 25th that reported that Arab women and children were among the attackers on Oct 7th, I guess that was to justify killing of Palestinian children and women.

[Victoria Raverna]

Now Israel want Palestinians to move to north Gaza?

[Blackhawk]

Lots of rubble to string tents from.

[Victoria Raverna]

Agree with her:



John Kirby: US military is worse than IDF.

He turned into a clown in defending Israel.

[Unagi]

The problem at hand, VR, is that you either have the guy who "wants his cake, and to eat it too"... Or you just have the guy who only wants to eat it.

I'm not happy with the (lack of) pushback that Biden has given to Israel at all. However, I'm not prepared to usher in a Trump administration because of it.



However, I agree with her.

[Dogstar]

The Biden Administration may finally have hit its limit in terms of what it's willing to accept in Gaza as it proposes a ceasefire at the UN. Things that have happened in the interim: Israel started to push into Rafah, leaving nowhere really for the refugees to go; Netanyahu rejected both a proposed ceasefire deal and the concept of a Palestinian state; an editorial was published from a doctor who worked in a Gaza hospital with horrific details, and more reports of Israeli forces doing bad things emerged.

[Victoria Raverna]

Let's wait to see if US is actually going to vote for the proposal that they proposed. It'll not be that surprising to me if they're voting against their own proposal just like the several "Biden is upset about Israel's action" but still continue to send weapons to help Israel kill civilians.

[Victoria Raverna]

CNN's investigation into a UN aid truck that was hit by Israeli forces at February 5th:

[Victoria Raverna]

US congressman Andy Ogles supported genocide when asked about US bombs kill Palestinian children?