Zarathud wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:47 am
McConnell’s vote to acquit makes him as guilty as Trump. Paul and Cruz are active conspirators. They are afraid of something big.
IMO this is late stage in the autocoup. Most of the GOP Senators are going along with it and helping to cover it up. Some doing more than others but many are no or little better than the mob that stormed the Capitol. They have the singular power as a group to make a statement here. History won't be kind.
Worse, I actually think there will be near-term global consequences too. Our adversaries have been emboldened. As a very specific but very real example, we still have not responded in any meaningful way to the Solarwinds attack. Most of us know that Russia was behind it. We still don't know the scope of the Solarwinds attack. Only days ago did we start to even publicly look into it. Meanwhile, I've seen commercial clients in a panic over it. Many still are in the dark about their exposure and how bad this situation is. And many governmental agencies are in the same boat. Why did that happen? Because our adversaries know they can get away with it. And this will signal that the United States is in disarray and invite more attacks. This is all part of an existential crisis.
Why am I so exasperated about this? Because I'm listening to the experts on authoritarianism who are *still* sidelined despite all this who are hanging off the alarm right now. Even now, while most of the papers are doing a good job of telling the public what is going on and how bad the immediate situation is, they are still *not talking* about the global picture. That's a problem. It really feels like our strategic capabilities are breaking down in plain view. It's a scary time.
Washington Post wrote:
Rep. Jaime Herrera Beutler
Sen. Tommy Tuberville
The Capitol rioters who cited Trump
The Trump aides involved in planning the rally
Brad Raffensperger
Dustin Stockton
Trump
Mark Meadows
Constitutionality witnesses
Commentary: Stockton and Meadows are interesting to me. The Trump aides and Constitutionality folks make sense to me for background. Everyone else is marginal value IMO. Tuberville would be useful but calling a Senator up seems messy to me.
In particular, Stockton and Meadows are important. Stockton is a Bannon guy who was involved with the rally and previously related that the protest wasn't supposed to include on march to the Capitol but was changed on January 6th. Meadows is as good a stand-in for Trump as we'll get.
Kurth wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:51 pm
Any idea why Graham changed his mind and voted for witnesses? I thought he was a chief opponent of any witnesses originally.
He probably wants to promote the fiction that the Insurrection Caucus carefully considered all the evidence. Remember, this is the berk who told Florida Man the jury was fixed.
Capitalism tries for a delicate balance: It attempts to work things out so that everyone gets just enough stuff to keep them from getting violent and trying to take other people’s stuff.
Kurth wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:51 pm
Any idea why Graham changed his mind and voted for witnesses? I thought he was a chief opponent of any witnesses originally.
Kurth wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:51 pm
Any idea why Graham changed his mind and voted for witnesses? I thought he was a chief opponent of any witnesses originally.
He was. So he made a threat on Fox (last week IIRC) that if the Democrats called witnesses he'd make them pay by jamming in many irrelevant witnesses. That's why I dropped some notes in the obstruction thread. It is a page out of the old GOP obstruction playbook.
I am going to be so pissed off if they compromise and give in to not have her (or others) testify.
This is the one shot the Democrats have, the Trump team is weak and in a horrible position. If they back away from this now, ugh... and - frankly, that would be their MO.
This has to be the one of the weirdest, dumbest things I've ever seen anywhere much less in politics. On this scale of a stage? At this level of importance? It should be unbelievable but it isn't. The Republicans are worse but the Democrats are completely hapless in the face of events consistently. The trial could have ended with the Republicans just being shameless. Now the Democrats look like the weak idiots that they are.
Here is an indication of why. If true, then this is malpractice. I held these guys in high esteem and now they are just pathetic bunglers. Our country is run by deeply unserious people.
I'll post a couple of other reactions just because this is beyond pathetic and I'm frankly outraged beyond belief right now.
Last edited by malchior on Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Is it possible they know the R Senators are going to drag it out (by calling irrelevant witnesses) for another 2+ weeks (or longer) and that no matter what any witnesses say, there's zero chance of R Senators voting to find Trump guilty? The longer the Senate is focused on this trial, the longer they can hold legislation hostage - stuff that Biden wants passed immediately for pandemic relief?
In short, they got played because from the get go, there was zero chance of the Senate finding Trump guilty. Zero.
Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:25 pm
Is it possible they know the R Senators are going to drag it out (by calling irrelevant witnesses) for another 2+ weeks (or longer) and that no matter what any witnesses say, there's zero chance of R Senators voting to find Trump guilty? The longer the Senate is focused on this trial, the longer they can hold legislation hostage - stuff that Biden wants passed immediately for pandemic relief?
Yes. I'm sure that's part of it (along with the reluctance of people to testify). The problem with giving them a break on that is that Graham threatened that two weeks ago. Why even hold this vote then? They didn't think even to the *next* step. That's just incompetence. They look ridiculous. And frankly they *are* ridiculous.
Edit: In other infuriating news, the Senate is out of town next week. It really appears that they didn't think it through, hit a roadblock and party leadership pulled the plug. They just want to wrap this up.
Since this happened there has been a lot of pan-political panning of this whole farce of a day but it seems the Democratic leadership has now realized how badly they fucked up. It obviously remains to be seen how much damage was done to their political capital but the Democratic base is up in arms right now. There are multiple leaders hammering out messages that they weren't going to win anyway. They've changed the whole tenor of the story and all because they didn't have a plan. When people talk about the Democrats being bad at politics and messaging, here is a prime example of it.
It's pointless to play to win when the winner was designated in advance. When that happens you find another reason to play, another goal - or you simply don't play.
George Conway
@gtconway3d
I'm surprised that the Framers didn't foresee that the nation's principal mechanism to address presidential wrongdoing would be the Fulton County District Attorney's Office.
malchior wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:55 pm
Since this happened there has been a lot of pan-political panning of this whole farce of a day but it seems the Democratic leadership has now realized how badly they fucked up. It obviously remains to be seen how much damage was done to their political capital but the Democratic base is up in arms right now. There are multiple leaders hammering out messages that they weren't going to win anyway. They've changed the whole tenor of the story and all because they didn't have a plan. When people talk about the Democrats being bad at politics and messaging, here is a prime example of it.
As much as we talk about Trumpers living in an echo chamber, the left and dems also live in their own echo chamber. The very notion that we were going to come out with a multi media presentation and wow the Rep and the public was delusional. And the kudos the house managers were getting for the great job they were doing was ridiculous. It reminds me of a Sienfeld episode where Kramer was learning Karate in a class full of middle schoolers and showing how great he was by beating up 10 year olds.
I told my wife the impeachment proceedings against Nixon was mostly won on the testimony of John Dean, the tapes were the icing on the cake. But man oh man, them Dems sure do know how to do a powerpoint . . . . . .
Tom was wrong. Nearly every separated powers Presidential system has failed and we've just been shown that the impeachment power is completely useless unless you're a judge or reconstructionist War Secretary.
malchior wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:55 pm
Since this happened there has been a lot of pan-political panning of this whole farce of a day but it seems the Democratic leadership has now realized how badly they fucked up. It obviously remains to be seen how much damage was done to their political capital but the Democratic base is up in arms right now. There are multiple leaders hammering out messages that they weren't going to win anyway. They've changed the whole tenor of the story and all because they didn't have a plan. When people talk about the Democrats being bad at politics and messaging, here is a prime example of it.
As much as we talk about Trumpers living in an echo chamber, the left and dems also live in their own echo chamber. The very notion that we were going to come out with a multi media presentation and wow the Rep and the public was delusional. And the kudos the house managers were getting for the great job they were doing was ridiculous. It reminds me of a Sienfeld episode where Kramer was learning Karate in a class full of middle schoolers and showing how great he was by beating up 10 year olds.
I told my wife the impeachment proceedings against Nixon was mostly won on the testimony of John Dean, the tapes were the icing on the cake. But man oh man, them Dems sure do know how to do a powerpoint . . . . . .
I disagree to an extent. I don't think anyone thought it'd actually change minds. Very few actually did. However the presentation was overwhelming to the point that major newspapers said Trump was guilty. The NY Times op ed board printed one today for instance. That was a victory for them in these troubled times. They had gotten the message out that Trump was guilty, the Republicans are shameless, but now we've mixed in a Democratic base that is dejected and outraged now at the continuing incompetence of their leadership.
Everyone knows that Trump was always going to be exonerated. But Democratic leadership would have the high moral ground. Now they are defending this stupid capitulation that was completely unnecessary. And 2022 is a critical year for the existence of our Republic. This ended up being a really bad start. When we hear about how the impeachment was a mistake in a few months it'll be tied to today. Not yesterday or the decision to do it which was absolutely necessary but the weak finish.
I think most people knew trump was guilty on Jan 6, even the newspapers. It was mandatory for the house to bring the full account to the record/history books not just some trump seditionist commercial that looked purty.
malchior wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:43 pm
Vote happening now. Only one surprise so far - Burr went guilty. Cassidy went guilty as some suspected.
As sort of expected - Collins and Murkowski voted guilty.
57-43. They got 7 votes from the GOP. Which is in the expected range to be honest. A permanent stain now on all the No's.
Those 7 votes are not nothing, though. I think they do a lot to establish just how bad Trump’s actions were and, also, just how spineless and cowardly those GOP senators voting no are. History will not treat them kindly, and I think that’s even more the case with seven of their colleagues doing the right thing.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:00 pm
Just so I'm clear, political violence has just been legitimized, right
No. I wouldn’t look at it that way. Trump was impeached and nearly (sort of) convicted in a bi-partisan vote. I don’t think this legitimizes political violence.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
malchior wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:43 pm
Vote happening now. Only one surprise so far - Burr went guilty. Cassidy went guilty as some suspected.
As sort of expected - Collins and Murkowski voted guilty.
57-43. They got 7 votes from the GOP. Which is in the expected range to be honest. A permanent stain now on all the No's.
Those 7 votes are not nothing, though. I think they do a lot to establish just how bad Trump’s actions were and, also, just how spineless and cowardly those GOP senators voting no are. History will not treat them kindly, and I think that’s even more the case with seven of their colleagues doing the right thing.
Sure but we have to keep in mind 3 were just re-elected and 2 are retiring. The politics of this are complicated but in the end we've established that removal via impeachment is effectively impossible. It'll never happen. I'd almost say Article 25 is useless absent a coma but that was murky to begin with. The Presidential system is almost certainly -- in the long-term -- going to be declared a failed design.
Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:00 pm
Just so I'm clear, political violence has just been legitimized, right
No. I wouldn’t look at it that way. Trump was impeached and nearly (sort of) convicted in a bi-partisan vote. I don’t think this legitimizes political violence.
Hard disagree. It effectively is legitimization of the incitement of political violence. That was what they ruled. It however isn't necessarily an endorsement of "future violence" but it will almost certainly encourage it.
Edit: The large scale message to the inevitable autocrats who will break this Republic is...don't hesistate to try it. The little people are the ones we'll punish if you fail.
Last edited by malchior on Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ummm, for a man who voted not guilty the Evil Turtle McConnell is currently making the arguments the House Managers have made over the last few days. Waiting for the pivot.
Black lives matter!
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
$iljanus wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:14 pm
Ummm, for a man who voted not guilty the Evil Turtle McConnell is currently making the arguments the House Managers have made over the last few days.
Yup. My McConnell meter is at 'Burn in hell McConnell Hopefully sooner than later' levels of disgust.
malchior wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:07 pm
Hard disagree. It effectively is legitimization of the incitement of political violence. That was what they ruled. It however isn't necessarily an endorsement of "future violence" but it will almost certainly encourage it.
Edit: The large scale message to the inevitable autocrats who will break this Republic is...don't hesistate to try it. The little people are the ones we'll punish if you fail.
Right - that's my take on this. They voted that there's no consequences for the *President of the United States* to incite domestic political violence - they don't believe he did it or that it was a problem.
Insane stat via @atausanovitch : 34 GOP senators representing just 14.5% of population can block conviction of president who tried to violently overthrow American democracy. US Senate & American politics deeply broken
McConnell is justifying his vote based on the Constitutional argument the Senate voted on and decided. The man is such a piece of shit. You know that McConnell will always do what is best for McConnell but this is beyond the pale in its hypocrisy and dishonesty. He prevented the trial from occurring when Trump was *still President*. That men like him have wielded power over life and death decisions is why this country has failed.
Last edited by malchior on Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
