That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons bring us some web forums whereupon we can gather
http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/
Unfortunately for them, many people in the administration have already testified that there was a quid pro quo. So now they’re changing the narrative to be that the process is illegitimate. It’s the usual bad-faith, change the goalposts strategy the GOP has been using for everything Trump.YellowKing wrote:You guys do realize that despite how bad this looks for all involved, the GOP has successfully shaped the narrative that there had to be a quid pro quo for there to be any wrongdoing.
The quid pro quo is solidly established. The defense now has shifted to "All of diplomacy is quid pro quo, so what's the problem?"YellowKing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:57 pm You guys do realize that despite how bad this looks for all involved, the GOP has successfully shaped the narrative that there had to be a quid pro quo for there to be any wrongdoing.
Mick Mulvaney was ahead of his time!Holman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:18 pmThe quid pro quo is solidly established. The defense now has shifted to "All of diplomacy is quid pro quo, so what's the problem?"YellowKing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:57 pm You guys do realize that despite how bad this looks for all involved, the GOP has successfully shaped the narrative that there had to be a quid pro quo for there to be any wrongdoing.
Today, on his first day in office, President Joe Biden announced via Twitter a far reaching investigation into the Trump family and their overseas investments.
In announcing the probe, the president said that his son, Hunter Biden, would be his personal overseas representative, working with foreign governments in this investigation. He stated that all countries with Trump properties should launch their own investigations of the Trump Organization, or face serious consequences in their relationship with the United States, including suspension of foreign aid, trade agreements, and economic sanctions.
When asked if this was a part of official US foreign policy under his new administration, Biden said, “Hell, no! It has absolutely nothing to do with foreign policy, it is for purely partisan political purposes. If Trump can leverage the power of the US government to investigate my family for personal reasons, then I can investigate his,” said Biden. “Consider it payback.”
Further asked about having his son, not a government official involved, Biden said, “Former President Trump used his personal attorney to investigate me rather than using official channels, and appointed his daughter and son-in-law who had no government experience to government positions. I know that some will say that Hunter can’t get a security clearance, but neither could Jared Kushner, so this seems entirely appropriate and reasonable to me.”
Biden went on to say, “I don’t know of any reason why anyone should object. When the Republican Senate refused to convict President Trump, it became quite clear to me that things have changed in Washington since I last held office, and that there are new standards of presidential conduct and ethics. Many accused me of being to old to run for President, but today I am showing that you can, indeed, teach an old dog new tricks.”
Senate Minority Leader Republican Mitch McConnell and House Minority Leader Republican Mark Meadows were asked for comments but stated that they would be “unavailable for the foreseeable future”.
Huh, who knew that Barr had a line he wouldn't cross...President Trump wanted Attorney General William P. Barr to hold a news conference declaring that the commander in chief had broken no laws during a phone call in which he pressed his Ukrainian counterpart to investigate a political rival, though Barr ultimately declined to do so, people familiar with the matter said.
The request from Trump traveled from the president to other White House officials and eventually to the Justice Department. The president has mentioned Barr’s demurral to associates in recent weeks, saying he wished Barr would have held the news conference, Trump advisers say.
I wonder, but it could also be driven by having to face the Republican primary electorate in a few years.
I see that aspect of it, but what about the idea that if trump is gone that part of the electorate that is so staunchly pro-trump just goes back to whatever hole it's been in for the last 40 years? What do these 'trump at all costs' type Republikans do then? The never trumpers, ie the ppl who were actual conservatives before trump and not just simply (R) now bc of trump, won't take them back (at least I don't think they will in the most immediate election following trump's ousting) and they'll be sunk.
You act as if pro-Trumpers came from no where. Many of them ARE historical Republicans and will still be there when Trump is gone. I think the real question is where/who will they turn to next since they seem to be largely fed up with their current leadership. I frankly see DJT, Jr trying to carry on his father's mantle - I would not be surprised to see him run if his father is re-elected rather than repudiated at the polls.GungHo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:42 pmI see that aspect of it, but what about the idea that if trump is gone that part of the electorate that is so staunchly pro-trump just goes back to whatever hole it's been in for the last 40 years? What do these 'trump at all costs' type Republikans do then? The never trumpers, ie the ppl who were actual conservatives before trump and not just simply (R) now bc of trump, won't take them back (at least I don't think they will in the most immediate election following trump's ousting) and they'll be sunk.
IMHO I think in post trump America the trumpkins will just go back to not caring or more accurately, just not voting, the way they did pro-trump. Or their influence will be diluted across multiple post-trump descendants. It just doesn't seem like there is any thinking in the Rs that goes beyond trump...like they think this is it not just it for the Rs in particular but America in general.
Grifman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:17 pmYou act as if pro-Trumpers came from no where. Many of them ARE historical Republicans and will still be there when Trump is gone. I think the real question is where/who will they turn to next since they seem to be largely fed up with their current leadership. I frankly see DJT, Jr trying to carry on his father's mantle - I would not be surprised to see him run if his father is re-elected rather than repudiated at the polls.GungHo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:42 pmI see that aspect of it, but what about the idea that if trump is gone that part of the electorate that is so staunchly pro-trump just goes back to whatever hole it's been in for the last 40 years? What do these 'trump at all costs' type Republikans do then? The never trumpers, ie the ppl who were actual conservatives before trump and not just simply (R) now bc of trump, won't take them back (at least I don't think they will in the most immediate election following trump's ousting) and they'll be sunk.
IMHO I think in post trump America the trumpkins will just go back to not caring or more accurately, just not voting, the way they did pro-trump. Or their influence will be diluted across multiple post-trump descendants. It just doesn't seem like there is any thinking in the Rs that goes beyond trump...like they think this is it not just it for the Rs in particular but America in general.
No, that won't fly. The attraction of Trump is how he campaigns, the name calling, the "triggering" of liberals, the "draining the swamp" thing. That's not Ivanka, she'd never campaign that way. But DJT Jr, he plays it just like his dad, he's a clone when it comes to campaigning, he loves getting down in the toilet like his father. If it's a choice between Ivanka and Junior, Junior wins hands down.
This is over the top exaggeration. Our government is dysfunctional right now, but we’re not about to anoint anyone to a lifelong term as POTUS. More likely than not, Trump will get reelected, and he will be even worse in his second term than he was in his first. But that’s all he’ll get: another 4 years of fucking things up.Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:50 am If tRump gets reelected we can expect that he will be in for life and whomever of his brood survives the battle for control after his death will take the seat next. All of the suggesting we should wait for the election noise, to me, suggests they feel they have that on lock down already. The more the Republicans cling to him in spite of the obvious abuses the more I am convinced we have already ceased being a true democracy.
It is probably exageration but look at the damage done in less than 1 term. I don't think it is impossible to envision. It should be.Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:49 amThis is over the top exaggeration. Our government is dysfunctional right now, but we’re not about to anoint anyone to a lifelong term as POTUS. More likely than not, Trump will get reelected, and he will be even worse in his second term than he was in his first. But that’s all he’ll get: another 4 years of fucking things up.Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:50 am If tRump gets reelected we can expect that he will be in for life and whomever of his brood survives the battle for control after his death will take the seat next. All of the suggesting we should wait for the election noise, to me, suggests they feel they have that on lock down already. The more the Republicans cling to him in spite of the obvious abuses the more I am convinced we have already ceased being a true democracy.
Then we can happily over correct and run into the arms of AOC.
One would hope you are right but from without is sure looks like deck stacking and dealing from the bottom is going on. I don't put Trump outside of winning. I don't put the legal system changing enough to protect him after four years outside of the realm of possibility. I don't see it as unlikely that he will hand pick his successor. If the economy doesn't take a complete poverty inducing dump on those the re-elect potus, then it's not unreasonable to think his successor could win and Trump would expect to pull his puppet strings openly and publicly through media until the day he dies. All the while, concentrating Moscow style mafia corruption and power concentration.Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:49 am This is over the top exaggeration. Our government is dysfunctional right now, but we’re not about to anoint anyone to a lifelong term as POTUS. More likely than not, Trump will get reelected, and he will be even worse in his second term than he was in his first. But that’s all he’ll get: another 4 years of fucking things up.
Then we can happily over correct and run into the arms of AOC.
More 'We don't have to wonder because it's already underway.' *cough* Hunter Biden *cough*malchior wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:19 pm It isn't hard to envision the Democratic nominee being named in an investigation by the DOJ last minute or some crazy revelation that some Trump crony in the government will cook up. We don't even have to wonder if it is possible because it already happened once.
This is a real worry. Even before the 2016 election, Trump publicly refused to commit to recognizing and abiding by the outcome of the vote. He has already stated that he should be able to run for a third term. He has no issue with (and has had some success with) simply ignoring the law and counting on flunkies in the executive branch and GOP loyalists in Congress from insulating him from the consequences. He's not only attacked the media verbally, he's taken official actions to hit the economic bottom line of companies that own media outlets that are critical of him. Oh, and don't forget that he faces the very real prospect of criminal charges after he leaves office; given that the presidency is his best shield against remaining in jail, that gives him a powerful incentive to do anything he can to give himself any chance at remaining in office indefinitely (or, as a Plan B, ensuring that can ensure that a flunky (say, Don Jr.) succeeds him when he leaves offices).Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:49 amThis is over the top exaggeration. Our government is dysfunctional right now, but we’re not about to anoint anyone to a lifelong term as POTUS. More likely than not, Trump will get reelected, and he will be even worse in his second term than he was in his first. But that’s all he’ll get: another 4 years of fucking things up.Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:50 am If tRump gets reelected we can expect that he will be in for life and whomever of his brood survives the battle for control after his death will take the seat next. All of the suggesting we should wait for the election noise, to me, suggests they feel they have that on lock down already. The more the Republicans cling to him in spite of the obvious abuses the more I am convinced we have already ceased being a true democracy.
Then we can happily over correct and run into the arms of AOC.
How would we stop it?Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:49 amThis is over the top exaggeration. Our government is dysfunctional right now, but we’re not about to anoint anyone to a lifelong term as POTUS.Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:50 am If tRump gets reelected we can expect that he will be in for life and whomever of his brood survives the battle for control after his death will take the seat next. All of the suggesting we should wait for the election noise, to me, suggests they feel they have that on lock down already. The more the Republicans cling to him in spite of the obvious abuses the more I am convinced we have already ceased being a true democracy.
The military will prevent a coup of this sort - their oaths are to the Constitution, not the President and while some would support a 3rd term and be willing to abrogate their Oaths, that will be a very, very minor portion. Even if he managed to declare Martial Law somehow, he won't get enough Military support for anything of the kind without the Supremes also ruling in favor of it, and that won't happen either.Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:07 pmHow would we stop it?Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:49 amThis is over the top exaggeration. Our government is dysfunctional right now, but we’re not about to anoint anyone to a lifelong term as POTUS.Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:50 am If tRump gets reelected we can expect that he will be in for life and whomever of his brood survives the battle for control after his death will take the seat next. All of the suggesting we should wait for the election noise, to me, suggests they feel they have that on lock down already. The more the Republicans cling to him in spite of the obvious abuses the more I am convinced we have already ceased being a true democracy.
Russia can supply some warm bodies with trigger fingers. They have a few dozen million they could spare.Pyperkub wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:25 pmThe military will prevent a coup of this sort - their oaths are to the Constitution, not the President and while some would support a 3rd term and be willing to abrogate their Oaths, that will be a very, very minor portion. Even if he managed to declare Martial Law somehow, he won't get enough Military support for anything of the kind without the Supremes also ruling in favor of it, and that won't happen either.Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:07 pmHow would we stop it?Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:49 amThis is over the top exaggeration. Our government is dysfunctional right now, but we’re not about to anoint anyone to a lifelong term as POTUS.Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:50 am If tRump gets reelected we can expect that he will be in for life and whomever of his brood survives the battle for control after his death will take the seat next. All of the suggesting we should wait for the election noise, to me, suggests they feel they have that on lock down already. The more the Republicans cling to him in spite of the obvious abuses the more I am convinced we have already ceased being a true democracy.
Far more likely would be President Don Jr/Jared/Ivanka somehow.
It wouldn't have to be a coup, and there wouldn't have to be martial law. He'd have his lawyers draw up some bullshit argument about why he could run for a third term, then he'd do it, and then he'd refuse to leave. Then we'd be in a position where we would have to count on the military and/or police to actively go in and arrest him. Which is a bad situation in and of itself.Pyperkub wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:25 pmThe military will prevent a coup of this sort - their oaths are to the Constitution, not the President and while some would support a 3rd term and be willing to abrogate their Oaths, that will be a very, very minor portion. Even if he managed to declare Martial Law somehow, he won't get enough Military support for anything of the kind without the Supremes also ruling in favor of it, and that won't happen either.Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:07 pmHow would we stop it?Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:49 amThis is over the top exaggeration. Our government is dysfunctional right now, but we’re not about to anoint anyone to a lifelong term as POTUS.Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:50 am If tRump gets reelected we can expect that he will be in for life and whomever of his brood survives the battle for control after his death will take the seat next. All of the suggesting we should wait for the election noise, to me, suggests they feel they have that on lock down already. The more the Republicans cling to him in spite of the obvious abuses the more I am convinced we have already ceased being a true democracy.
Far more likely would be President Don Jr/Jared/Ivanka somehow.
SCOTUS would still have to bless the 3rd term, which won't happen, and if he tries to stay w/o SCOTUS blessing, it is a *coup*. If anything, it will be a different Trump family member running in 2024.El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:04 pmIt wouldn't have to be a coup, and there wouldn't have to be martial law. He'd have his lawyers draw up some bullshit argument about why he could run for a third term, then he'd do it, and then he'd refuse to leave. Then we'd be in a position where we would have to count on the military and/or police to actively go in and arrest him. Which is a bad situation in and of itself.Pyperkub wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:25 pmThe military will prevent a coup of this sort - their oaths are to the Constitution, not the President and while some would support a 3rd term and be willing to abrogate their Oaths, that will be a very, very minor portion. Even if he managed to declare Martial Law somehow, he won't get enough Military support for anything of the kind without the Supremes also ruling in favor of it, and that won't happen either.Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:07 pmHow would we stop it?Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:49 amThis is over the top exaggeration. Our government is dysfunctional right now, but we’re not about to anoint anyone to a lifelong term as POTUS.Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:50 am If tRump gets reelected we can expect that he will be in for life and whomever of his brood survives the battle for control after his death will take the seat next. All of the suggesting we should wait for the election noise, to me, suggests they feel they have that on lock down already. The more the Republicans cling to him in spite of the obvious abuses the more I am convinced we have already ceased being a true democracy.
Far more likely would be President Don Jr/Jared/Ivanka somehow.
That said, I do think that a Don Jr. type situation is more likely in the short term. Remember that as Putin was consolidating his power and gutting Russian democracy (such as it was) he had a flunky (Medvedev) run for President and serve a term while Putin himself technically served as 'prime minister'. Which gave Putin four more years to undermine Russian democratic institutions to the point where he could openly serve as president indefinitely.
Trump is 73 and senile. Golf may make him active and psychosis may mitigate stress but he's not living 10 more years. That much travel and the foods he eats will see to that.El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:04 pm That said, I do think that a Don Jr. type situation is more likely in the short term. Remember that as Putin was consolidating his power and gutting Russian democracy (such as it was) he had a flunky (Medvedev) run for President and serve a term while Putin himself technically served as 'prime minister'. Which gave Putin four more years to undermine Russian democratic institutions to the point where he could openly serve as president indefinitely.
It *probably* won't happen, but I wouldn't guarantee that. Especially bearing in mind that by 2024 a President Trump has probably at least replaced Ginsburg.Pyperkub wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:06 pmSCOTUS would still have to bless the 3rd term, which won't happen, and if he tries to stay w/o SCOTUS blessing, it is a *coup*. If anything, it will be a different Trump family member running in 2024.El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:04 pmIt wouldn't have to be a coup, and there wouldn't have to be martial law. He'd have his lawyers draw up some bullshit argument about why he could run for a third term, then he'd do it, and then he'd refuse to leave. Then we'd be in a position where we would have to count on the military and/or police to actively go in and arrest him. Which is a bad situation in and of itself.Pyperkub wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:25 pmThe military will prevent a coup of this sort - their oaths are to the Constitution, not the President and while some would support a 3rd term and be willing to abrogate their Oaths, that will be a very, very minor portion. Even if he managed to declare Martial Law somehow, he won't get enough Military support for anything of the kind without the Supremes also ruling in favor of it, and that won't happen either.Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:07 pmHow would we stop it?Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:49 amThis is over the top exaggeration. Our government is dysfunctional right now, but we’re not about to anoint anyone to a lifelong term as POTUS.Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:50 am If tRump gets reelected we can expect that he will be in for life and whomever of his brood survives the battle for control after his death will take the seat next. All of the suggesting we should wait for the election noise, to me, suggests they feel they have that on lock down already. The more the Republicans cling to him in spite of the obvious abuses the more I am convinced we have already ceased being a true democracy.
Far more likely would be President Don Jr/Jared/Ivanka somehow.
That said, I do think that a Don Jr. type situation is more likely in the short term. Remember that as Putin was consolidating his power and gutting Russian democracy (such as it was) he had a flunky (Medvedev) run for President and serve a term while Putin himself technically served as 'prime minister'. Which gave Putin four more years to undermine Russian democratic institutions to the point where he could openly serve as president indefinitely.