The Viral Economy

[YellowKing]

The one thing I don't think companies think about when requiring cameras is that it's a much bigger burden on female employees than male employees.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but a lot of women wouldn't be caught dead at work without makeup on. And I've got short hair, I can wet it and run a comb through a couple of times and I look halfway presentable. My wife has long hair - no way she's bouncing out of bed and have her hair looking presentable without some effort.

I think it's a perfectly valid argument that working from home shouldn't excuse you from getting up and getting dressed for the workday, I'm just saying one gender is taking on the larger burden of that.

Personally I tend to turn my camera on even if not required; my boss and I have already had discussions about how much more disconnected we are from each other these days. I feel like having that presence puts one at an advantage, even at a subconscious level, from someone who is always hiding behind a blank screen and a name.

As far as keyloggers, trackers, etc. f--- that. I'm a grown-ass man, I don't need a babysitter, and any job that required that would not be on my radar. If you can't measure your employees by the work they do, then you need to hire better employees. That kind of stuff is the very antithesis of my company's management style. They trust their people to do their jobs without having to Big Brother them.

[Carpet_pissr]

Like Hepcat, somewhat, I’m an office person. But maybe for different reasons: I NEED to be in an office, or I’m simply not very productive.

If I’m trying to work from home, I have too many distractions, too many things that ‘need’ doing.

I REALLY wish i was not this way, trust me. Would love to not have to drive an hour every day to/from work, save on food, gas, time etc.

But the sheer effort required (with ADHD) to even try to be similarly productive would be counter-productive.

However, I do support the idea of working remotely, and those who can, and do it really well (maybe too well IMO), like my wife.

[Octavious]

Camera during a meeting is fine. Making them leave that camera on all day? That's just nutty. People are very capable of doing nothing IN the office. Hell what am I doing right now.

[GreenGoo]

I found it interesting that he's making it a moral issue. Even if you're able to deliver identical productivity, it's morally wrong to not be in an office.

I think his argument is that miners need to be physically present, so it's unfair that others don't. Immoral even. Honestly, who fucking knows. Random shit comes out of his mouth just as often as drumpf at this point.

[Octavious]

At least he can't run for president. So we have that going for us.

[GreenGoo]

Then you can come in to the office. The whole point is if I have a job for you that requires butt in seat as a measurable then I am going to track your butt being in the seat. Trust, whatever. If that is part of the job, then the discussion was moot from the start.

Geezus. Who is going through the reams and reams of keylogging to validate their work? Who are they paying to do it? How much?

I don't treat my children with that little trust. And as Oct points out, there are plenty of ways to avoid productivity in the office. Why not hire personal babysitters to sit behind you and look over your shoulder?

Everyone knows that morale plays no role in productivity, so might as well torpedo it.

[Alefroth]

I've got one meeting a week that I'm required to turn my camera on. I don't feel any more connected to those people for doing so.

[YellowKing]

I think his argument is that miners need to be physically present, so it's unfair that others don't.

Our company went through that complaint when we first rolled out work from home options (pre-pandemic). Certain IT positions required bodies that could be physically present to work on computers. Others could do their entire jobs working from home. So there was some cries of "unfair."

But the ultimate result was "if you don't like that your job doesn't allow work from home, find another job." It's not fair that I get paid more than a teacher and don't have to deal with a single kid all day long. It's not fair there that are YouTubers that get paid more than I'll ever see in my lifetime by making toy unboxing videos. I mean yeah, life's unfair. What's the next brilliant observation.

[ImLawBoy]

Then you can come in to the office. The whole point is if I have a job for you that requires butt in seat as a measurable then I am going to track your butt being in the seat. Trust, whatever. If that is part of the job, then the discussion was moot from the start.

Geezus. Who is going through the reams and reams of keylogging to validate their work? Who are they paying to do it? How much?

I would assume its twofold. First, it's about the threat that they could be looking at things, including through randomized audits. Second, it's the ability to review the logs if there appears to be an issue with the employee's performance.

That doesn't get to your point about morale, of course, but I don't think that all logs are always being reviewed.

[Isgrimnur]

Well, those are your canaries in the coal mine. Obviously if they can get away with it, you have a pretty wide area in which you can stop doing things you don't like.

I successfully used one in my first long-term job for years.

[Isgrimnur]

Why not hire personal babysitters to sit behind you and look over your shoulder?

[ImLawBoy]

I start my lobbying efforts to remain in Chicago today! Hell, if they want to call me virtual and assign me to Dallas, I can fly in once a month for a day (on my dime, of course). We've got a large medical and support network in this area, so I'm hoping they'll listen to reason.

Initial discussion with my boss' boss went well. She tells me that I have her vote for a VO designation, but she's not the final decision maker. I have a pretty good relationship with her boss, who is well aware of my situation, so I'm cautiously optimistic that I'm not going to have to move.

[stessier]

I start my lobbying efforts to remain in Chicago today! Hell, if they want to call me virtual and assign me to Dallas, I can fly in once a month for a day (on my dime, of course). We've got a large medical and support network in this area, so I'm hoping they'll listen to reason.

Initial discussion with my boss' boss went well. She tells me that I have her vote for a VO designation, but she's not the final decision maker. I have a pretty good relationship with her boss, who is well aware of my situation, so I'm cautiously optimistic that I'm not going to have to move.

Would you actually move? It would seem your skills are pretty transferable with a number of potential employers in your area.

[gbasden]

As far as keyloggers, trackers, etc. f--- that. I'm a grown-ass man, I don't need a babysitter, and any job that required that would not be on my radar. If you can't measure your employees by the work they do, then you need to hire better employees. That kind of stuff is the very antithesis of my company's management style. They trust their people to do their jobs without having to Big Brother them.

Right. Fuck that noise. My employer measures me on outcomes, not whether I spent 8.0 hours in my chair looking at my screen clicking on things. I'm not in elementary school. IMO that would be a sign of a really dysfunctional corporate culture.

[Max Peck]

If you can't measure your employees by the work they do, then you need to hire better employees.

Or better managers.

[Octavious]

If I give someone a set of things that get done and give them a date it needs to be done, then I don't care how long it takes them. As much as my company sucks they are very hands off once you have been here a long time. Here's what we want done. Go do it...

[YellowKing]

My boss even went as far to say as he doesn't care *when* we work, as long as we get in our 40 hours, attend meetings, and he can get up with us during standard 8-5. I tend to stick to the normal 8-5 workday since my wife is on the same schedule, but it's nice to know there's plenty of flexibility to work around errands and kids.

[Octavious]

I work mostly with people in India and Europe so calls at 7:30AM and such are the norm. I refuse to drive in early to do those, so I generally don't go into the office until 10:30-11:00. It's actually perfect for me as I miss traffic. Thankfully nobody ever complains as the only other option is that I'm not taking calls that early. I do clock in from home and clock out before driving in. Which is pointless as I'm salary, but whatever makes them sleep at night.

[LawBeefaroni]

Our system expanded during COVID and the move back to in person suddenly means that I have meetings 30 minutes apart on the calendar that are 45 minutes or more apart on the road.

I put in a request in for a teleporter. We'll see how that goes.

[gilraen]

I do clock in from home and clock out before driving in. Which is pointless as I'm salary, but whatever makes them sleep at night.

If you were to get into a car accident while clocked in, it's a liability for your employer. That's why they want you to clock out before driving in.

[GreenGoo]

My boss even went as far to say as he doesn't care *when* we work, as long as we get in our 40 hours, attend meetings, and he can get up with us during standard 8-5. I tend to stick to the normal 8-5 workday since my wife is on the same schedule, but it's nice to know there's plenty of flexibility to work around errands and kids.

I often check emails or do technical work at night simply because I have some free time and I don't want to do it tomorrow. No one cares. I doubt anyone knows.

[Octavious]

I do clock in from home and clock out before driving in. Which is pointless as I'm salary, but whatever makes them sleep at night.

If you were to get into a car accident while clocked in, it's a liability for your employer. That's why they want you to clock out before driving in.

I think it was more that it was messing up their timesheet report as it looked like I was working 5 hours extra a week. But ya it could be that too. I forget to do it half the time anyway so there is that.

[gbasden]

My boss even went as far to say as he doesn't care *when* we work, as long as we get in our 40 hours, attend meetings, and he can get up with us during standard 8-5. I tend to stick to the normal 8-5 workday since my wife is on the same schedule, but it's nice to know there's plenty of flexibility to work around errands and kids.

I do a great deal of work often late at night, when it's quiet. I also have the flexibility to start my workday at 9am, instead of 8, unless I have a specific customer meeting I need to attend. Because we are grown adults who can manage our own work lives.

[ImLawBoy]

I start my lobbying efforts to remain in Chicago today! Hell, if they want to call me virtual and assign me to Dallas, I can fly in once a month for a day (on my dime, of course). We've got a large medical and support network in this area, so I'm hoping they'll listen to reason.

Initial discussion with my boss' boss went well. She tells me that I have her vote for a VO designation, but she's not the final decision maker. I have a pretty good relationship with her boss, who is well aware of my situation, so I'm cautiously optimistic that I'm not going to have to move.

Would you actually move? It would seem your skills are pretty transferable with a number of potential employers in your area.

I'd try to avoid it, but I don't know if I could quit here without having another job already lined up. I'm the sole money earner for a family of five and our insurance is through me. My aversion to change is in conflict - I'm averse to relocating, but I'm also averse to changing jobs.

[Smoove_B]

From across the pond, how a record number of sick people is impacting their economy:

For every 13 people currently working, one person is long-term sick.

The absence of their skills from the workforce is starting to take its toll on productivity - and may start to impact long-term growth, according to economists.

"People being off work is inevitably going to be bad for business and the economy," says Tony Wilson, director at the Institute for Employment Studies.

...

One of the reasons why the UK economy has been doing less well than other developed nations has been the case of the missing workers, after millions stopped working during the pandemic.

There are 400,000 more people not in employment or looking for employment than there were before the pandemic, Darren Morgan, director of economic statistics at the ONS, told the BBC.

As well as an increase in mental health conditions and back and neck pains that may be linked to home working, Mr Morgan said there had also been "an increase in the category that includes post-viral fatigue, so perhaps long Covid having an impact".

The ONS points out that rising work-limiting health problems predate the pandemic. In 2016, some 15.4% of 16 to 64-year-olds reported these, rising to 16.4% in 2019. This went up even further to 18.1% of the population in 2022 - roughly 7.5 million people.

Don't worry - there's a plan:

Getting these people back into employment is a key part of the government's plan to get the economy growing again.

The March budget included changes to the rules around health-related benefits and universal credit aimed at helping to address the shortage of workers.

The latest figures show mixed progress on this front.

Significant numbers of students, carers and even some retired people have been going back to work, pushing the inactivity rate - the key measure of people not in work - down to 21% - the lowest level in three years.

However, the rise in the number of people too ill to work is likely to worry policymakers.

First time I can recall seeing a journalist suggest that "working from home" is contributing to long term illness, so that's interesting.

[Isgrimnur]

Inflation: Consumer prices in May rose at slowest annual rate since April 2021 - headline spin

The Consumer Price Index (CPI) revealed headline inflation rose 0.1% over last month and 4% over the prior year in May, a slowdown from April's 0.4% month-over-month increase and 4.9% annual gain.
...
Although the 4% jump in headline inflation represents a continued slowdown, it's still significantly above the Federal Reserve's 2% target.
...
The shelter index, which jumped 8% annually and 0.6% between April and May, was the largest factor in the monthly increase of core inflation, accounting for over 60% of the total increase. Among the other indexes that rose in May was the index for used cars and trucks, which increased 4.4% for the second straight month, and the index for motor vehicle insurance, which increased 2%, the BLS noted.

[LawBeefaroni]

"Slowest annual rate in a whole 2 years!!!!11!"

[Kraken]

This isn't really political but if we have an EBG economy thread I couldn't find it.

Today I bought 18 eggs for $2.99. They're white eggs, which are always cheaper than brown in New England, but I don't eat the shells so I can cope with their absence of color. It wasn't a whole lot of months ago I was paying $6.50 per dozen. Thanks, Obama! (now it's political).

[LordMortis]

This isn't really political but if we have an EBG economy thread I couldn't find it.

Today I bought 18 eggs for $2.99. They're white eggs, which are always cheaper than brown in New England, but I don't eat the shells so I can cope with their absence of color. It wasn't a whole lot of months ago I was paying $6.50 per dozen. Thanks, Obama! (now it's political).

Large (not extra large) are down to $1.89 for 18 and can be had on sale for $1.49. This just happened in the last couple of weeks. They say to get ready for beef price to go through the roof and that it should last about three years. I haven't seen it yet. The egg relief is welcome. I can start making egg sandwiches regularly again which were a nice cheap staple at $.10 an egg. Not so much when it was pushing $.70 an egg.

Also EBG egg thread seemed to be random randomness.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/animal- ... t-outlook/

Per capita red meat and poultry disappearance—often used as a proxy for consumption—is forecast to fall 1 percent in 2024. This is mainly the result of an 8-percent decline in per capita disappearance of beef. The main component of disappearance is domestic production, though net trade and stocks are also factors in disappearance. Beef production is forecast to decrease more than 8 percent as U.S. cattle supplies tighten.

Enjoy your $2.99 a pound 80/20 when you can get it for now. It looks like it's going to go away for a few years in the none too distant future.

[Smoove_B]

I'm pretty sure this is a viral economy issue as UPS Teamsters vote to authorize strike:

The members at the country’s largest delivery service voted 97% in favor of authorizing a strike to start on August 1, if there is no agreement in contract talks now taking place between the company and the union. The Teamsters represent more than 340,000 UPS logistics warehouse workers and package delivery drivers nationwide.

...

If a strike does come, it would be the largest against a single employer in America’s history, as UPS (UPS) is the largest unionized employer in the private sector. And it is crucial to the nation’s economy, with an estimated 6% of the United States’ gross domestic product, the broadest measure of economic activity, moving aboard UPS (UPS) trucks. It delivered 18.7 million domestic packages a day in the first three months of the year.

The current five-year contract expires on July 31, meaning a strike could start on August 1 if there is no agreement on a new deal before then. But there have been signs of progress at the negotiating table.

But a viral economy issue? Absolutely:

The Teamsters haven’t publicly disclosed the wage increase they are seeking, but they point to record profits that UPS recorded in recent years. UPS profits have nearly doubled during the five-year life of the current contract, from an adjusted net income of $6.3 billion in 2018 to $11.3 billion on that basis last year. The surge in online purchases that started during the height of the pandemic drove record package delivery volumes for UPS and other delivery services.

[Smoove_B]

Missed this last week and I'm catching up to things now:

A recent presentation from the CDC has clarified the governmental agency's stance on the impact crater that Covid-19 complications have left on the US economy.

According to their analysis of third-party reports, the CDC says research is “suggesting Long Covid is contributing to a labor shortage and is hurting the U.S. economy.”

Among other research, the quote references a January 2023 report finding that around 18% of those who report having Long Covid (which is 5% of all workers who got Covid) couldn't return to their workplace for over a year. It's a fairly clear confirmation from the CDC: The acute stages of Covid infections may not be spiking, but the threat to the economy isn't over.

...

From the report:

Almost one-third of all workers infected with Covid-19 suffered or are suffering from Long Covid, with the percentage peaking during the initial phase of the pandemic and falling over time.
The percentage of female workers with Long Covid (37 percent) was 11 points higher than that of male workers (26 percent).
Forty percent of workers with Long Covid returned to work within 60 days of infection while still receiving medical treatment.
Nearly all workers with comorbidities or those hospitalized for their initial infection experienced Long Covid.
The incidence of Long Covid in essential workers may be higher than the data suggests, creating a potential blind spot for policymakers.

Of note:

Understandably, people have heard enough about the Covid pandemic and want it to be over. But assuming that 5% of those who get Covid in the future will stay out of the labor market for at least a year, the economy will face some significant headwinds for as long as Covid continues to circulate.

Maybe it just try ignoring it HARDER that will work as we inch closer to 2024.

[Smoove_B]

But remember, working in an office is good for you, citizen! Nothing like a traffic-filled commute to get your heart pumping.

When it comes to the physical toll of remote work, health experts are most concerned about teleworkers’ lack of movement during the day.

The world has been struggling with a physical inactivity crisis for years. In 2008, about 31 percent of people 15 years or older and older were “insufficiently physically active,” according to World Health Organization data.

And that crisis appears to have been exacerbated by COVID-related lockdowns and potentially worsened by remote work, according to Ross Arena, a professor of physical therapy at the University of Illinois, Chicago.

...

The average remote worker just takes 16 steps from their bed to their workstation, according to a 2022 survey from Upright, an app that promotes good back health. And multiple studies show such workers are physically less active than their office-going counterparts.

That same survey also found that 54 percent of remote and hybrid workers believe that their movement during the workday has shrunk by 50 percent or more over the past year.

Here's a thought - stop trying to make people feel guilty for working from home, so much so that they're afraid to get up and go do things. Or that they feel the need to work longer hours because the perception is they aren't working as hard - extra hours that they could be using for non-work things, like exercise.

[Blackhawk]

And how many steps is the average person taking while sitting in a chair in their cubicle? It's doubtlessly more (there's that walk to the car, then from the car to the elevator), but I'd still guess that it is far, far too few to have any impact on health.

[LawBeefaroni]

Here's a thought - stop trying to make people feel guilty for working from home, so much so that they're afraid to get up and go do things. Or that they feel the need to work longer hours because the perception is they aren't working as hard - extra hours that they could be using for non-work things, like exercise.

I work from home one day a week. I work a an hour or two longer when I'm at home but I also walk to get lunch and usually take a walk to do some errands. I get roughly the same amount of steps from work or at home (not counting the gym at work). About 8-10K.


Edit: In fact, working from home inspired me to take more walks at work since I was doing that at home and got some of good problem solving done during walks.

[coopasonic]

I get massively more steps when I am going into the office. It's still not a great reason to go into the office. If I just went for a walk rather than playing games at lunch I could get the same or more at home.

[pr0ner]

And how many steps is the average person taking while sitting in a chair in their cubicle? It's doubtlessly more (there's that walk to the car, then from the car to the elevator), but I'd still guess that it is far, far too few to have any impact on health.

The average person? Probably not many. But more than someone who's not leaving their home.

I know for me, personally, I walk far more by going to the office than I ever did when I had to work at home.

[Octavious]

I certainly think people should be allowed to work from home, but for me personally I hate it. It's lot to do with my particular house where I can't really isolate myself? I might go insane if I never went into the office. I actually like the setup I have right now where I take calls very early in the morning 7:30-10:00 and then I go into the office. A. I find running meetings to be super easy and not stressful and B. I miss traffic.

[Blackhawk]

And how many steps is the average person taking while sitting in a chair in their cubicle? It's doubtlessly more (there's that walk to the car, then from the car to the elevator), but I'd still guess that it is far, far too few to have any impact on health.

The average person? Probably not many. But more than someone who's not leaving their home.

I know for me, personally, I walk far more by going to the office than I ever did when I had to work at home.

Which I acknowledged. But while 'more is better', 2100 at work vs 1500 at home still isn't really enough to make a dent. If you've got a sedentary job and the health impacts are something that concern you, you're going to have to make a conscious decision to be more active, whether that is at home or the office. So, yeah - they're right. People move more at the office. I still don't think it's relevant to the work-from-home vs office debate. It's taking a piece of data and using it to support conclusions that it may not actually support.

[Max Peck]

It's spin. The headline should be "Sedentary Lifestyle Poses Risks to Physical Health" and we already knew that. There's nothing about WFH that forces people to get less exercise, and there's nothing about working in an office that forces them to get more.

[Smoove_B]

Apologies to those without Twitter

Don’t Be Fooled.
Sitting In This Chair At Home Can Lead To Blood Clots, Cardiovascular Disease, And Diabetes. But It’s Totally Safe When You Sit In It In An Office.