Re: Never thought I'd be typing this
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:15 am
It's "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" in EVERY store! You see where I'm going here!
That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons bring us some web forums whereupon we can gather
http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/
I don’t want to speak for anyone else, but there’s a lot of confusing messaging here. I’ve not seen too many people want out of a marriage, but then still be up for consistent sex, going on vacations (in the immediate proximity of the bombshell), not be up for a 30 separation.msduncan wrote:This is a trip rescheduled three times and she was very firmly in the 'let's go' opinion. In fact we paid more just a week and a half ago to maintain the trip because we were required to upgrade to a deluxe resort in order to go.
No. You are absolutely correct. There are mixed messages all over the place. She even ordered me one of the rubberized replacement wedding bands for my birthday. The revised plan that we are on right now is this: She moves into our 'pool house' type area that is only connected via garage. She has everything she needs and can come and go as she pleases. We are to cease contact during this time.RunningMn9 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:19 amI don’t want to speak for anyone else, but there’s a lot of confusing messaging here. I’ve not seen too many people want out of a marriage, but then still be up for consistent sex, going on vacations (in the immediate proximity of the bombshell), not be up for a 30 separation.msduncan wrote:This is a trip rescheduled three times and she was very firmly in the 'let's go' opinion. In fact we paid more just a week and a half ago to maintain the trip because we were required to upgrade to a deluxe resort in order to go.
Like...what does she think ending this marriage is going to be like?
On some level, I guess I can get some apprehension on the 30-day no contact plan, if the plan was for you to move out for 30 days. If the problem was that EVERYTHING feels like it’s her responsibility, how would you moving out for 30 days, literally leaving her responsible for everything, help her in any way?
Given the circumstances, I would have thought that her not being there for 30 days would be a far more productive exercise. It forces you to feel like she’s been feeling, at least for 30 days. And it gives her some much needed relief.
Maybe I misunderstood the plan, but it all seems confusing from an external vantage point.
I don't pretend to know where she is other than what she tells me. I can't convince her that my habits are fundamental changes because I want to be a good husband to her and not just because I'm selfishly wanting to keep her. The ONLY thing I can do is relentlessly do the things I always should have been doing, study our books and listen to my counselor so that I grow as a person and husband, and hope that she comes back to the table ready to walk with me into a healthy marriage that has vastly improved communication. The deep friendship is there, the sexual compatibility is there, but I have to repair the damage to her trust when it comes to filling her love bank and we both need to drastically improve our communication.Unagi wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:02 pm I assume he comes to this forum to hear from people on the forum.
I mean, if all he wants is blank friendly faces saying, "I feel for you, you should listen to a professional for help" (Which is clearly what we all want, and he's telling us he has done) - then I guess I can say that... but I do feel we owe it to each other to offer our point of view on what we are hearing here. I'm certainly not trying to say anything unkindly.
I'll let you give him the platitudes, but I don't find that very thoughtful, personally speaking of course.
I'm perhaps overly cautious when it comes to dispensing relationship advice to someone I don't really know that well, with a spouse I don't know at all. That is true. But my hope that things work out is nonetheless sincere.Unagi wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:02 pm I assume he comes to this forum to hear from people on the forum.
I mean, if all he wants is blank friendly faces saying, "I feel for you, you should listen to a professional for help" (Which is clearly what we all want, and he's telling us he has done) - then I guess I can say that... but I do feel we owe it to each other to offer our point of view on what we are hearing here. I'm certainly not trying to say anything unkindly.
I'll let you give him the platitudes, but I don't find that very thoughtful, personally speaking of course.
Or that there's an upscale grocery in Akron Ohio? Isn't that Kroger?
West Point Market.LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:08 pmOr that there's an upscale grocery in Akron Ohio? Isn't that Kroger?
that's a raw deal all around, but i can only expect that outcome was beneficial to both parties.Hrothgar wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:39 pm
-- Past pain can poison a relationship. I had a friend who received a call from a old ex girlfriend. He told her he was married and unavailable. Then he did the right thing and told his wife about the call. His wife was cheated on in her previous marriage. Right then she labeled my friend a cheater. He fought hard for their marriage, but it was over. She didn't trust him with her heart any more.
Yeah, me too and it pisses off my wife to no end. Or maybe someday will be the end. I can only do what I can do, I have no interested in changing my ways because of that happy horseshit.RunningMn9 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:36 pm I will freely admit though that I check out when people start talking about love languages and other stuff like that. I have limits.
I'm not a huge believer in the love languages book but I don't consider it total BS either. If her love language is acts of service I'd suggest that you use the separation to figure out some service that you can do for her that she hasn't mentioned. Then do it without making a big deal about it.
I disagree. It was the kids' "party", not his. Also, I think the no-contact rule is msd/ms msd, not ms-msd/kids.Unagi wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:34 am Please tell me to 'shut it', msduncan, if at any time you don't want me to post this stuff.
I am just going to say that, on day 1, having a pool party when the idea is for her to have 'no unplanned contact' with the family; well it seems like a bit of a crack in the plan, when her 'safe-zone' is actually the pool house.
On a more supportive note: I will say that I think you will make it through this and will grow from it (not to imply in any way I myself don't need much growth). I think there is indeed a good chance you two can eventually have a good life together again. My comments are meant to point out wrinkles that I fear could be problematic. I'm not a therapist, so I only mean to add my voice to the crowd, not give advice.
Clarification: The pool house doesn't have to be used by people using the pool. They were swimming and she could have stayed in her sanctum and never come out. It's just a semi-separate place on the opposite side of the pool courthouse from the main part of the house.Unagi wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:34 am Please tell me to 'shut it', msduncan, if at any time you don't want me to post this stuff.
I am just going to say that, on day 1, having a pool party when the idea is for her to have 'no unplanned contact' with the family; well it seems like a bit of a crack in the plan, when her 'safe-zone' is actually the pool house.
On a more supportive note: I will say that I think you will make it through this and will grow from it (not to imply in any way I myself don't need much growth). I think there is indeed a good chance you two can eventually have a good life together again. My comments are meant to point out wrinkles that I fear could be problematic. I'm not a therapist, so I only mean to add my voice to the crowd, not give advice.
To be clear, I didn't suspect people were using the pool house, I guess I was suggesting she shouldn't have to come home from work and be forced to be that close to such a family social event, if the idea is that she should be freeing her mind to think about things, etc.msduncan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:55 am Clarification: The pool house doesn't have to be used by people using the pool. They were swimming and she could have stayed in her sanctum and never come out. It's just a semi-separate place on the opposite side of the pool courthouse from the main part of the house.
I can see how that would make it hard to call off.
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:25 pm Another pure anecdote about me and what I learned about myself, not about you, that I hope may be of some benefit.
My ex-wife and I are back together. We divorced in 2007, and got back together a little over ten years later. And being apart was the single best thing that could have happened to our relationship. When we were together, I needed her. She needed me. We separated, and I had no idea how to function without her, without having her to tell about this, or vent to about that, or tell stupid inside jokes to and laugh with, or to plan dinner with, or share shows with. After some time apart, I learned how to find those things in myself that I'd so desperately needed from her. And when we got back together, the entire dynamic was different. I didn't need her. She didn't need me. We wanted to be with each other, but it wasn't a thing where we felt compelled by routine or a fear of not having each other. We were our own people, and for the first time in our lives we chose a relationship freely and out of love rather than out of need or loneliness. What I learned is that fear of not having someone isn't a sound foundation for a relationship, or for personal happiness.
Obviously, I condensed many tough months down to the one issue they couldn't overcome. My friend wasn't a saint. He worked hard to improve himself as a man and a husband. It was painful to see that wasn't enough. His wife did work with him for a while, but once she accepted that she didn't trust him, she stopped. I'm not condemning her. She didn't cause that pain inside her. There might even be a deeper layer to that pain. I hope and pray she's able to deal with it, address it, and/or overcome it.rhinohelix wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:39 am Well, this isn't what I hoped to find dropping back into OO but I wanted to say I wish everyone the absolute very best. I love seeing all the familiar names still here. I will keep my bitter stories and opinions to myself and I am glad MSD and his wife are working on things, although, part of me is upset about any number of stories like the one about someone's spouse wrecking the marriage over a phone call that Hrothgar mentioned. I know that bitterness and pain and that you will do anything to avoid it and keep the one you love and hopefully you will be successful. And that she does decide to come back and walk a path of love and balance with you.
I am SO SORRY that you are going through this. Please feel free to talk to us here about it if you need to.Papa Smurph wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:24 am Oh, MSD, I hope this works out for you. In January, my wife of 22 years asked for a divorce. I requested we seek counseling, and she said no, she was done. A month later, she had moved out to live with her new boyfriend. In a week the divorce will be legally final. It’s been the hardest time of my life. Divorce is hard enough, but my last kid heads to college this fall, and I will suddenly be all alone. I’ve looked forward to empty nesting with this lady for a decade, anticipating how great it will be to finally go on vacations some other month than July (as a simple, stupid example), and instead I’ll be empty nesting solo. Pile Coronavirus on top, and my world is in total upheaval.
I just wanted to say: I understand. You are not alone. Good luck, fight for what is best for you. And seek therapy for yourself.
We are both doing journals. She bought us each a journal as a part of the books she bought Monday.Hrothgar wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:44 amObviously, I condensed many tough months down to the one issue they couldn't overcome. My friend wasn't a saint. He worked hard to improve himself as a man and a husband. It was painful to see that wasn't enough. His wife did work with him for a while, but once she accepted that she didn't trust him, she stopped. I'm not condemning her. She didn't cause that pain inside her. There might even be a deeper layer to that pain. I hope and pray she's able to deal with it, address it, and/or overcome it.rhinohelix wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:39 am Well, this isn't what I hoped to find dropping back into OO but I wanted to say I wish everyone the absolute very best. I love seeing all the familiar names still here. I will keep my bitter stories and opinions to myself and I am glad MSD and his wife are working on things, although, part of me is upset about any number of stories like the one about someone's spouse wrecking the marriage over a phone call that Hrothgar mentioned. I know that bitterness and pain and that you will do anything to avoid it and keep the one you love and hopefully you will be successful. And that she does decide to come back and walk a path of love and balance with you.
MSD, I had some random thoughts. Take them as you will.
Have you made a list of everything your wife does around the house and for the family? It might help you focus as well as making sure you don't fall behind while she's away.
You might want to write letters to your wife while she's gone. They probably shouldn't all be love letters. Some might be your feelings. Some might be documenting things she missed. Some might be things you like and admire about her as you've eloquently expressed here. Writing can help clarify your thoughts and feelings. If you do this, I would caution you not to just dump them on her when she comes home. If you let her know of their existence, she'll probably tell you if and when she's ready for them.
Don't forget your IRL friends. They want to help, but there's not much they can do. A good friend will be happy to listen.
Good luck.
Sorry to hear that, sometimes life just sucks horribly.Papa Smurph wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:24 am Oh, MSD, I hope this works out for you. In January, my wife of 22 years asked for a divorce. I requested we seek counseling, and she said no, she was done. A month later, she had moved out to live with her new boyfriend. In a week the divorce will be legally final. It’s been the hardest time of my life. Divorce is hard enough, but my last kid heads to college this fall, and I will suddenly be all alone. I’ve looked forward to empty nesting with this lady for a decade, anticipating how great it will be to finally go on vacations some other month than July (as a simple, stupid example), and instead I’ll be empty nesting solo. Pile Coronavirus on top, and my world is in total upheaval.
I just wanted to say: I understand. You are not alone. Good luck, fight for what is best for you. And seek therapy for yourself.
So Sorry to hear this. Thinking of you.Papa Smurph wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:24 am Oh, MSD, I hope this works out for you. In January, my wife of 22 years asked for a divorce. I requested we seek counseling, and she said no, she was done. A month later, she had moved out to live with her new boyfriend. In a week the divorce will be legally final. It’s been the hardest time of my life. Divorce is hard enough, but my last kid heads to college this fall, and I will suddenly be all alone. I’ve looked forward to empty nesting with this lady for a decade, anticipating how great it will be to finally go on vacations some other month than July (as a simple, stupid example), and instead I’ll be empty nesting solo. Pile Coronavirus on top, and my world is in total upheaval.
I just wanted to say: I understand. You are not alone. Good luck, fight for what is best for you. And seek therapy for yourself.
I get that this feels good, and that it's a relief from the despair you must be feeling, but as much as it's possible to "know" what's going on with two third parties that I don't really know, y'all are doing what's easy, not doing the hard work that's going to either make this succeed or make it honestly fail (if that's what's best for one of you). I've been where your wife is. I'm sure she really cares about you, and I'm sure she knows how much pain her needs are causing you, and I'm sure more than anything that she wishes she could have her needs met while not causing you an ounce of pain. I'm equally sure that for her to get to the point where she seriously wanted out of her marriage, it's going to take a hell of a lot more than a pretend separation into another room and a weekend away with some friends. She needs to make the choice to come back to you *because that's where she wants to be for the rest of her life*, not because it's a "quick fix" return to the same comfortable "normal" that she was ready to leave over a week ago.msduncan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:42 pm Day 3:
We suck at contracts.
This morning I ventured outside to let the dog use the bathroom at 6 am and guess who was doing the same from her place? She smiled and said hello. It was like two neighbors meeting by chance.... and so we started having small talk by repeatedly using the term "Logistically....." (we are allowed to talk about logistics). After I went inside I texted her that 'Logistically' I was going to be sitting at the table by the pool in silence having coffee if a silent neighbor wanted to join me'. She said that logistically she would..but that she had to leave for work in 30.
Later in the day I took my truck key over to her. She was leaving on an overnight trip to see her dad. Instead of a quick in and out -- we wound up talking for 45 minutes past when she planned to leave. Just friendly talk. Talk about the books we are reading. Talking about how this contract sucks and that we can break it if nobody knows. Talk about the kids' love languages. We didn't have any negative talk at all. It was nice. I stole a couple hugs and some kisses and then she shooed me out so that she could actually leave for the trip.
We suck at contracts apparently. :p
If she decides to join me in repairing this marriage -- she needs to keep that space over there. A safe haven for her to go any time and for any length of time she wants. She also will have the freedom to spread her wings and go do things like this trip without ANY guilt whatsoever. She needs to be able to be herself and have freedom. Just random notes I'm putting in my journal tonight.
I can assure you that we are both putting in the work. I have counseling sessions scheduled (individual). She does too. We are working through books on Love Languages, Communication, and a stack of others. We are keeping journals of our thoughts and feelings, etc. She's staying over there and for the most part (until today) I'm letting her have the space she needs. She is scheduled to attend church with us Sunday (sanctioned by counselor). I bid her farewell today for her trip and left her alone - giving her the space she desires.geezer wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:26 pmI get that this feels good, and that it's a relief from the despair you must be feeling, but as much as it's possible to "know" what's going on with two third parties that I don't really know, y'all are doing what's easy, not doing the hard work that's going to either make this succeed or make it honestly fail (if that's what's best for one of you). I've been where your wife is. I'm sure she really cares about you, and I'm sure she knows how much her needs are causing you, and I'm sure more than anything that she wishes she could have her needs met while not causing you an ounce of pain. I'm equally sure that for her to get to the point where she seriously wanted out of her marriage, it's going to take a hell of a lot more than a pretend separation into another room and a weekend away with some friends. She needs to make the choice to come back to you *because that's where she wants to be for the rest of her life*, not because it's a "quick fix" return to the same comfortable "normal" that she was ready to leave over a week ago.msduncan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:42 pm Day 3:
We suck at contracts.
This morning I ventured outside to let the dog use the bathroom at 6 am and guess who was doing the same from her place? She smiled and said hello. It was like two neighbors meeting by chance.... and so we started having small talk by repeatedly using the term "Logistically....." (we are allowed to talk about logistics). After I went inside I texted her that 'Logistically' I was going to be sitting at the table by the pool in silence having coffee if a silent neighbor wanted to join me'. She said that logistically she would..but that she had to leave for work in 30.
Later in the day I took my truck key over to her. She was leaving on an overnight trip to see her dad. Instead of a quick in and out -- we wound up talking for 45 minutes past when she planned to leave. Just friendly talk. Talk about the books we are reading. Talking about how this contract sucks and that we can break it if nobody knows. Talk about the kids' love languages. We didn't have any negative talk at all. It was nice. I stole a couple hugs and some kisses and then she shooed me out so that she could actually leave for the trip.
We suck at contracts apparently. :p
If she decides to join me in repairing this marriage -- she needs to keep that space over there. A safe haven for her to go any time and for any length of time she wants. She also will have the freedom to spread her wings and go do things like this trip without ANY guilt whatsoever. She needs to be able to be herself and have freedom. Just random notes I'm putting in my journal tonight.
It's wrong of her to upend your family's life, and then refuse to do the hard searching that she needs to do. But you're not doing yourself (or her, or your marriage, or your family) any favors by allowing her to dodge the responsibility to conduct this self examination that she needed.
Here's the reality. Not long ago, she took stock of the past xx years of your life together and told you that it was deeply unsatisfying. People don't do that because their partners don't do the dishes enough, but y'all have decided to disregard the therapist's suggestion because it's easier and doesn't hurt as much. If you don't address the problem, you may find things get easier for a month, or a year, or a few years. But this is going to happen again. I beg you both - do the work (even though it feels like s**t).