Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

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Isgrimnur
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Constitution Center
At the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, there was little public debate about the age requirements and no discussion about the age requirement for the presidency.

The one discussion of note involved two important Founders: James Wilson, a future Supreme Court Justice, and George Mason, a constitutional dissenter. Mason, who was 62 years of age, argued that a requirement of 25 years of age was needed for the House because of his own experience. Mason said, “if interrogated [he would] be obliged to declare that his political opinions at the age of 21 were too crude and erroneous to merit an influence on public measures.”

Wilson, who was 45 years of age, said that any age limit on serving in public office would “damp the efforts of genius, and of laudable ambition. There was no more reason for incapacitating youth than age, where the requisite qualifications were found.” Wilson pointed to William Pitt the Younger, who served as British prime minister at the age of 24, and Lord Bolingbroke, who served in Parliament in his early 20s.

In the end, Mason won the argument and the drafting committee approved age limits by a 7-3 vote. There was some insight later from James Madison, writing in The Federalist 62, about why Senators needed to be older than House members.

Madison talked about the need for “senatorial trust” which required “greater extent of information and stability of character … that the senator should have reached a period of life most likely to supply these advantages.”
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Holman »

In practical terms, I support a 35+ age limit because it requires narcissists and sociopaths to spend time exposing their failings before they're eligible for high office. At the very least, they have to risk having their true character revealed in the private sphere before they're able to do public harm.

Obviously we've had at least one president whose career dodged that test, but I still think the limit is a useful one.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by gbasden »

Holman wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:35 pm In practical terms, I support a 35+ age limit because it requires narcissists and sociopaths to spend time exposing their failings before they're eligible for high office. At the very least, they have to risk having their true character revealed in the private sphere before they're able to do public harm.

Obviously we've had at least one president whose career dodged that test, but I still think the limit is a useful one.
Given Ted Cruz, MTG and their ilk, I'd say being a narcissist and sociopath is a prerequisite rather than a liability in the current GOP.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Unagi »

gbasden wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:45 pm
Holman wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:35 pm In practical terms, I support a 35+ age limit because it requires narcissists and sociopaths to spend time exposing their failings before they're eligible for high office. At the very least, they have to risk having their true character revealed in the private sphere before they're able to do public harm.

Obviously we've had at least one president whose career dodged that test, but I still think the limit is a useful one.
Given Ted Cruz, MTG and their ilk, I'd say being a narcissist and sociopath is a prerequisite rather than a liability in the current GOP.
Sure, but it (our knowledge of their narcissism / sociopathic behavior ) is still useful for the rest of us.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Smoove_B »

I guess Chris Christie is really giving up on running in 2024. He seems genuinely surprised here.

NEW: @GovChristie says it’s "inexcusable" Mark Meadows didn’t reveal President Trump's positive COVID test during debate prep and "saved it for a book."

So does Christie, who spent a week in intensive care with the virus, believe Trump infected him?

"I think it’s undeniable."
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Kraken »

I disagree that the voting laws aren't the big concern, because that's step 1: control who can vote. Step 2 is control who counts the votes, and step 3 is control who rubberstamps the results. Step 1 has to deliver narrow, contestable results in order to proceed to the subsequent steps.

Fortunately for the trumpelos, Democrats are so demoralized and disorganized that none of this might be necessary.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by malchior »

Kraken wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:39 pm I disagree that the voting laws aren't the big concern, because that's step 1: control who can vote. Step 2 is control who counts the votes, and step 3 is control who rubberstamps the results. Step 1 has to deliver narrow, contestable results in order to proceed to the subsequent steps.

Fortunately for the trumpelos, Democrats are so demoralized and disorganized that none of this might be necessary.
I agree on the voting aspect. It is a portion of the attack. With increased gerrymanders, voter suppression, and Biden possibly still very unpopular and weak I suspect for 2022 nothing can save the Democratic majorities in the House and maybe even the Senate.

I think the GOP has priced some of that in and is aiming most of their fire at 2024 when we will almost certainly see another huge election no matter who is running. They'd love to not need it and rule from a position of legitimacy but are building out a path for stable minority rule including just stealing elections. I expect us to backslide massively in 2024.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by LordMortis »

malchior wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:46 pm I agree on the voting aspect. It is a portion of the attack. With increased gerrymanders, voter suppression, and Biden possibly still very unpopular and weak I suspect for 2022 nothing can save the Democratic majorities in the House and maybe even the Senate.
The gerrymandering thing is what it's all about. The idea the senate and president can be controlled by 30% of the populace due to insane fears of majoritarian politics, I don't like but I understand. That 30% of the populace can control the house even when they lose the popular vote is N-V-T-S nuts.

I'll be curious to see what the popular turnout is for the house when democracy potentially dies in the US and the republic becomes a facade.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by malchior »

For who knows what reason there is a ton of talk tonight about Clinton re-running in 2024. I don't know why but apparently the democratic bench has 1-2 people on it or something according to pundits.

Edit: Oh - it was a WSJ article. Glad that some idiot's half-brained idea becomes the next days talking points. Apparently the major papers have given up on any gatekeeping.

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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Kraken »

Sure, run the candidate who lost to trump...the right wing's lifelong boogey(wo)man. That will go well. Maybe pair her up with John Kerry while you're at it.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:00 pm For who knows what reason there is a ton of talk tonight about Clinton re-running in 2024. I don't know why but apparently the democratic bench has 1-2 people on it or something according to pundits.

Edit: Oh - it was a WSJ article. Glad that some idiot's half-brained idea becomes the next days talking points. Apparently the major papers have given up on any gatekeeping.
Worse than that - it's a WSJ op ed. Not much difference between that and the NY Post at this point.

But I fully expect political hacks to trot out some idiotic 2024 presidential candidates, including Clinton. Easy story not involving actual research that'll generate some clicks.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Kraken wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:27 pm Sure, run the candidate who lost to trump...the right wing's lifelong boogey(wo)man. That will go well. Maybe pair her up with John Kerry while you're at it.
Hillary/Bernie if we want to make MAGANation lose their collective shit.

Actually Hillary is disqualified as she's too young. Kerry also. We have a de facto min age of 75 to run for President now! :character-oldtimer:
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by hepcat »

There's clearly only one choice for 2024...and his name is Damien Thorn.

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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Hyena »

hepcat wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:28 pm There's clearly only one choice for 2024...and his name is Damien Thorn.

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Hmm...follow me on this.

Damien Thorn..."born" into money and prestige. Has a series of scandals that follow him but he seems to be immune from the repercussions. Grows up and becomes a politician, well-loved and powerful, all while secretly evil incarnate.

Donald Trump...born into money and prestige. Has a series of scandals that follow him but he seems to be immune from the repercussions. Grows up and becomes a politician, well-loved and powerful, all while secretly evil incarnate.

Both have the initials DT...
Both have six letters in their first name and 5 in their second name...

DONALD TRUMP IS DAMIEN THORN!
DONALD TRUMP IS THE ANTICHRIST!

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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Yes, ok, fine. BUT DOES HE OWN THE LIBS?!?!
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by hepcat »

Hyena wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:35 pm
hepcat wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:28 pm There's clearly only one choice for 2024...and his name is Damien Thorn.
Hmm...follow me on this.

Damien Thorn..."born" into money and prestige. Has a series of scandals that follow him but he seems to be immune from the repercussions. Grows up and becomes a politician, well-loved and powerful, all while secretly evil incarnate.

Donald Trump...born into money and prestige. Has a series of scandals that follow him but he seems to be immune from the repercussions. Grows up and becomes a politician, well-loved and powerful, all while secretly evil incarnate.

Both have the initials DT...
Both have six letters in their first name and 5 in their second name...

DONALD TRUMP IS DAMIEN THORN!
DONALD TRUMP IS THE ANTICHRIST!
Damien Thorn - smart

Donald Trump - smart?
Covfefe!
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Hyena »

hepcat wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:42 pm
Hyena wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:35 pm
hepcat wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:28 pm There's clearly only one choice for 2024...and his name is Damien Thorn.
Hmm...follow me on this.

Damien Thorn..."born" into money and prestige. Has a series of scandals that follow him but he seems to be immune from the repercussions. Grows up and becomes a politician, well-loved and powerful, all while secretly evil incarnate.

Donald Trump...born into money and prestige. Has a series of scandals that follow him but he seems to be immune from the repercussions. Grows up and becomes a politician, well-loved and powerful, all while secretly evil incarnate.

Both have the initials DT...
Both have six letters in their first name and 5 in their second name...

DONALD TRUMP IS DAMIEN THORN!
DONALD TRUMP IS THE ANTICHRIST!
Damien Thorn - smart

Donald Trump - smart?
Stable gen...ius...?
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by LordMortis »

Don't click and then watch if you want keep your lunch in your stomach.


https://nypost.com/2022/01/26/trump-dec ... ying-golf/
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Jaymann »

LordMortis wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:17 pm Don't click and then watch if you want keep your lunch in your stomach.


https://nypost.com/2022/01/26/trump-dec ... ying-golf/
I like to retain my lunch. Can you give a watered down summary?
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by LordMortis »

Jaymann wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:30 pm
LordMortis wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:17 pm Don't click and then watch if you want keep your lunch in your stomach.


https://nypost.com/2022/01/26/trump-dec ... ying-golf/
I like to retain my lunch. Can you give a watered down summary?
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Jaymann »

So he admits that he lost in 2020.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by malchior »

Jaymann wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:45 pm So he admits that he lost in 2020.
No he was cheated in 2020.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Jaymann »

malchior wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:46 pm
Jaymann wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:45 pm So he admits that he lost in 2020.
No he was cheated in 2020.
If he truly thought that he would say he is still the 45th.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by malchior »

Things are going well. This is why people are talking about it and why the GOP is still firmly in his grip.

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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by LordMortis »

Unless that's electoral votes, that's not boding well... and I suspect it's not electoral votes.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by malchior »

LordMortis wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:53 am Unless that's electoral votes, that's not boding well... and I suspect it's not electoral votes.
It's a crude heads up level of support. They aren't that useful for specifics but they do indicate a measure of support that in this case says Trump is a viable candidate for 2024.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

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We live in such a strange world. Except for an aunt that I haven't spoken to for years, I honestly don't know a single person who supports Trump.

Not one. My kids tell me they have a classmate at the high school who flies a TRUMP flag on his car and professes loudly to be a MAGA disciple, but I don't know him, and I take his professes Trump allegiance with a grain of salt (the kids say he's just in it for the attention).

But outside of that, I am entirely isolated from any Trumpers. Yet, apparently, nearly half the country supports this dangerous clown. It's difficult to get my head around that.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by coopasonic »

Kurth wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:43 am But outside of that, I am entirely isolated from any Trumpers. Yet, apparently, nearly half the country supports this dangerous clown. It's difficult to get my head around that.
I could give you a peek at my nextdoor app and you will quickly understand.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Isgrimnur »

I'm sure that less than 25% of them are Feds.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

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coopasonic wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:59 am
Kurth wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:43 am But outside of that, I am entirely isolated from any Trumpers. Yet, apparently, nearly half the country supports this dangerous clown. It's difficult to get my head around that.
I could give you a peek at my nextdoor app and you will quickly understand.
Don't get me wrong: I see plenty of them on NextDoor. I just don't know who any of these people are. None of them. Talk about being on an island.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by YellowKing »

Honestly I don't see a scenario in which Trump doesn't win. You'll have a fired up Republican base ready to take back the election that was "stolen." Apathetic Democratic voters who don't have much love for Biden. Trump sympathizers who are now in state positions to rig close outcomes where necessary. Nobody telling Rs to stay home because voting is rife with fraud.

It's a perfect storm for a Trump comeback.

Really the only thing we can hope for is he gets mired in such legal trouble he can't run, or he drops dead. Then we have a slim shot that the Republican candidate, lacking Trump's cult-leader charisma, fails to rally the base. Even then, I'd put it a coin flip.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Octavious »

I would say about 90-95 of my daily interaction outside of my house is Trump supporters. And I'm in NJ... My town voted something like 70 percent for him. My work has to be about 80% Trump supporters. Yesterday I got to listen them have conversations about inflation. Not long after the election I lost my shit on someone that was talking about how the votes were changed via the internet. I'm seriously am my avatar at this point. :P
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Smoove_B »

YellowKing wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:06 pm Honestly I don't see a scenario in which Trump doesn't win.
I can. It involves a hearse.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Octavious »

YellowKing wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:06 pm Honestly I don't see a scenario in which Trump doesn't win. You'll have a fired up Republican base ready to take back the election that was "stolen." Apathetic Democratic voters who don't have much love for Biden. Trump sympathizers who are now in state positions to rig close outcomes where necessary. Nobody telling Rs to stay home because voting is rife with fraud.

It's a perfect storm for a Trump comeback.

Really the only thing we can hope for is he gets mired in such legal trouble he can't run, or he drops dead. Then we have a slim shot that the Republican candidate, lacking Trump's cult-leader charisma, fails to rally the base. Even then, I'd put it a coin flip.
Damn man you are usually on the glass half full side. We can't all be in the we're screwed bandwagon. That's no fun. :)
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by El Guapo »

YellowKing wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:06 pm Honestly I don't see a scenario in which Trump doesn't win. You'll have a fired up Republican base ready to take back the election that was "stolen." Apathetic Democratic voters who don't have much love for Biden. Trump sympathizers who are now in state positions to rig close outcomes where necessary. Nobody telling Rs to stay home because voting is rife with fraud.

It's a perfect storm for a Trump comeback.

Really the only thing we can hope for is he gets mired in such legal trouble he can't run, or he drops dead. Then we have a slim shot that the Republican candidate, lacking Trump's cult-leader charisma, fails to rally the base. Even then, I'd put it a coin flip.
Well, that's too pessimistic I think (assuming for the moment that the election is free and fair and not mucked up). Obama wasn't riding high on approval rating during his first two years either as I recall (beyond the very early days). Plus there are a lot of disgruntled leftists who aren't in love with him now but who will come back to the fold rather than see Trump win. Plus Biden will have incumbency.

Obviously Biden won pretty narrowly in terms of the electoral college in 2020, and so it's not hard to imagine a scenario where Trump (genuinely) wins. But even so right now I'd give BIden ~ 60% chance of winning a free and fair rematch with Trump.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by YellowKing »

Octavious wrote:Damn man you are usually on the glass half full side. We can't all be in the we're screwed bandwagon. That's no fun.
:D

I think it's just pandemic fatigue talking. It's hard to feel optimistic when you know 10+ people with Covid right now. :doh:

And El Guapo, I did fail to take into account the incumbency factor. That is a huge factor in Biden's favor. Even Trump, as disastrous as he was, almost won re-election through pure incumbency.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:42 pmBut even so right now I'd give BIden ~ 60% chance of winning a free and fair rematch with Trump.
You'd hope. I think the challenge is it is pretty challenging to accurately handicap when the non-'free and fair' option comes into play. They only need it if they lose so they're essentially creating a Trump card -- sorry I had to -- to be played at the time and place of their choosing.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by Octavious »

Well I mean you can pretty much take Georgia off the map with the rule changes they did. If we held the same election now he would have "won" the state for sure after "reviewing" ballots and finding a bunch that need to be thrown out.
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Re: Too soon to start thinking about 2024?

Post by LordMortis »

YellowKing wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:06 pm Really the only thing we can hope for is he ... he drops dead.
My shame. It makes me ill that I have these hopes but I do.
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