hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:30 pm
Welp, it's Trump in 2024. Thanks America.
No blame for Biden? Come on.
I can't say much because I was kinda hoping Harris would win the nomination, and from what I have seen so far (in her role as VP of course), I am glad she didn't. I don't know that anybody on the ticket would have been better than Biden, but he was not even one of my first few choices.
I appreciate the obvious challenges of inheriting a post-Trump WH (and government, really), so I don't discount that. Not to even mention the whole "rigged election" bullshit that JUST. WON'T. DIE.
Who do we like in 2024?
Maybe we can start playing ball like the GOP and do something unconstitutional. Where's Obama these days?! Although honestly, I think we need someone much harder than Obama. I don't want to Mr. Robot the world like Drazzil, but moderate, old school Democrats are not getting it done, and are probably not CAPABLE of getting it done in this environment.
Edit: To be clear, I would be satisified with the mere appearance of concern and activity around countering the growing taint of authoritarianism, and attacks on our Democracry. If they did NOTHING more than that, I would be content. And that, to me is the "it" referenced above in case you were going to ask. Biden and Co's "it" appears to be different than mine, though, thus my criticism.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:35 pm
by LordMortis
Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:28 pm
I don't know that anybody on the ticket would have been better than Biden,
Me either. OTOH, I was pleasantly surprised at how he was running his campaign at the end of the primary and during the general. I also thought he started very strong. I don't think he was truly prepared the Congress he would face though and from where I set it's not gotten better in that regard.
I'd like to believe that if Merkley would have run that he would have gotten the nod and won and done better but I'm not sure. Congress is a mess and I don't want an authoritarian seeking president to run roughshod over it, so I can see lots of what I don't want and very little of a path to do what I do want.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:37 pm
by malchior
We're on the same wavelength. I resisted a similar post. The worst thing was for me is this is what I expected. Biden just isn't hard nosed enough. I think we could have used someone who had sharper elbows and better command of the bully pulpit. All this behind the scenes maneuvering is just too invisible which is analogous to a problem he had during the campaign as well.
hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:30 pm
Welp, it's Trump in 2024. Thanks America.
No blame for Biden? Come on.
He's part of that America I call out. I definitely do think he's been making more than his fair share of fumbles.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:59 pm
by Zaxxon
All I know is if they don't figure out a way to get the $3.5T package passed in some form at least vaguely resembling what has been originally proposed, 2022 is going to be ugly.
At that point we're essentially down to voting D just on the basis of attempting to not vote directly for the fall of America as we know it. (Which, to be clear, is a thing and I'd absolutely do it.) It'd be rather crushing, though, to know that we're not voting D for any hope of actually accomplishing progressive goals. The Senate is rough, yes, but it's going to be that way for the foreseeable future. If the Presidency, the House, and a squeaker of a Senate all being D can't do it, on the back of a new President taking over for the most embarrassing administration the country has ever seen?
We're fucked.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:02 pm
by LordMortis
Which, to be clear, is a thing and I'd absolutely am already doing it.
The question for me is how much do I do it before digesting that it is not the right choice. I don't have an answer for that yet, which is good for the Ds. The problem is, that this approach to victory is not winning allies in a time gerrymandering is shrinking the power of the majority.
Which, to be clear, is a thing and I'd absolutely am already doing it.
I mean, sure, but even without the destroying-democracy piece, I don't think many here would be voting GOP these days. And therefore no, most of us aren't solely voting D for the preservation-of-democracy angle. I think the party platforms, such as they are, broadly favor most of us here leaning D anyway.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:19 pm
by malchior
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:59 pm
All I know is if they don't figure out a way to get the $3.5T package passed in some form at least vaguely resembling what has been originally proposed, 2022 is going to be ugly.
This is my gut feeling as well. The Democrats have a hard road ahead no matter what but anything significantly less is going to be celebrated by the GOP to increase turnout and vice versa. They also need to do it to instill some semblance of hope in many people.
At that point we're essentially down to voting D just on the basis of attempting to not vote directly for the fall of America as we know it. (Which, to be clear, is a thing and I'd absolutely do it.) It'd be rather crushing, though, to know that we're not voting D for any hope of actually accomplishing progressive goals.
Heck I'd take being able to pass the agenda that they were elected on. What we're seeing is profoundly undemocratic behavior over and over. Some of that would be progressive but even nuts and bolts stuff is failing. I was hoping that we'd see at least a few agenda items that had relatively high levels of public happen. Just to prove we're still a democracy at some level. I'm not even a supporter of the agenda but economically it makes sense and I just wanted to see the system work. Instead, we're seeing unpopular and anti-governmental activities succeed. The sad reality that Congress hasn't been able to perform some of its basic functions for over a decade in any sort of normal fashion is lost on many.
We're fucked.
Ain't that the truth.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:48 pm
by LordMortis
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:09 pm
I mean, sure, but even without the destroying-democracy piece, I don't think many here would be voting GOP these days. And therefore no, most of us aren't solely voting D for the preservation-of-democracy angle. I think the party platforms, such as they are, broadly favor most of us here leaning D anyway.
I would sit out more than a few of my election requirements but I swallow my bile and continue to vote in the primaries, telling myself this is where my real election is. I also don't think either the "progressive" wing nor the "moderate" wing are being the adults in the room at this point which erodes my desire to vote for D's and one of those "progressive" in the house my Congress person whom I have been voting for (she isn't all negative but she's got some dooseys and I look for a meaningless vote for a competitor in the primary) and whose seat is becoming less secure. So yeah, hands tied.
“Let me be clear: bringing the so-called bipartisan infrastructure plan to a vote without the #BuildBackBetter Act at the same time is a betrayal. We will hold the line and vote it down.”
You may love that attitude but I accept it because of attempting to not vote directly for the fall of America as we know it. I don't like re-defining infrastructure to include childcare. Childcare subsidized by government may very well be necessary toward the future success of the nation but it's not infrastructure and playing those games with language to drive politics is very path that began my turn from my conservative voting tendencies.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:10 pm
by El Guapo
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:59 pm
All I know is if they don't figure out a way to get the $3.5T package passed in some form at least vaguely resembling what has been originally proposed, 2022 is going to be ugly.
At that point we're essentially down to voting D just on the basis of attempting to not vote directly for the fall of America as we know it. (Which, to be clear, is a thing and I'd absolutely do it.) It'd be rather crushing, though, to know that we're not voting D for any hope of actually accomplishing progressive goals. The Senate is rough, yes, but it's going to be that way for the foreseeable future. If the Presidency, the House, and a squeaker of a Senate all being D can't do it, on the back of a new President taking over for the most embarrassing administration the country has ever seen?
We're fucked.
Honestly I think most of the damage has already been done (by Manchin, Sinema, and Gottheimer). I don't think that most people will know the difference between a $2T and a $3T package. McConnell's basic political insight that the vast majority of people decide whether a bill is good or bad based upon whether it's bipartisan and whether it's controversial. McConnell's obviously denied the bipartisanship, and Gottheimer, Manchin, and Sinema have thrown enough monkey wrenches in that the media stories on it are about democratic dysfunction and disagreement. Even if they passed the full $3.5T I doubt it would be all that popular.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:13 pm
by El Guapo
malchior wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:37 pm
We're on the same wavelength. I resisted a similar post. The worst thing was for me is this is what I expected. Biden just isn't hard nosed enough. I think we could have used someone who had sharper elbows and better command of the bully pulpit. All this behind the scenes maneuvering is just too invisible which is analogous to a problem he had during the campaign as well.
There's no way to know, but FWIW I doubt that Biden is a major factor here one way or the other. The core problem here is Manchin and Sinema - if they were on board the reconciliation bill would've passed a month or so ago. Manchin is in a Trump +35 state, so Biden has no real source of political leverage with him, nor would President Sanders or President Harris or what have you.
Would another President have more sway with Sinema? Maybe, but she seems more fruit loops than anything. Maybe the healing crystals lady would've gotten through to her.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:09 am
by Paingod
One good thing about the last President is the perspective he provided on just how bad things could actually be.
I know the bar should be higher, but I'm still excited that I don't go to bed every night wondering what fresh new hell the next day will bring. Biden hasn't, so far:
- Been in the center of half a dozen scandals and investigations
- Knowingly sided with racists
- Intentionally gassed protestors for a photo op
- Shilled products for people who support him
- Intentionally poured gas on racial tension and riots
- Suggested we should inject liquid sunlight or drank bleach
- Negligently killed hundreds of thousands of US citizens
- Stoked bipartisan hatred
- Inspired an attempted insurrection
... and the list just goes on.
Any day without those things is a win. Biden isn't awesome. I don't like him. I'm just glad he doesn't make me ashamed to be a US citizen.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:18 pm
by Octavious
Just today Trump said that the illegals are all infected with AIDs. I swear if this country somehow puts him back in office in 2024 I'm just going to lose all hope. Biden needs to get his shit together though. He's getting to Trump level approval ratings which isn't going to cut it.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:38 pm
by malchior
Frankly it doesn't even really matter if it's Trump at this point. That he can say things with that sort of evil/darkness and still have the support of so many of the GOP base indicates we're too far gone IMO. I wondered a while back how we could turn back from this. We've gone far, far downhill even during the last couple of months. I don't think we can. It seems way more likely that we will have to go through the darkness.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:15 pm
by Octavious
I'd love to think that most people just don't really pay attention to what he says, but that's just wishful thinking. He says and does stuff daily that should have him shunned for life and everyone is cool with it on the right. It really is a dark time and I don't see how it's going to get better anytime soon.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:53 pm
by YellowKing
I'm not terribly worried about Trump being put back in office. I *am* terribly worried about a Republican loyal to Trump's ideologies (which is pretty much all of them) being put into office.
The same guy who wouldn't vote for 4 more years of Trump's bullshit may be more than willing to give the new guy a chance because "Biden raised mah gas prices!"
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:24 pm
by Octavious
YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:53 pm
I'm not terribly worried about Trump being put back in office. I *am* terribly worried about a Republican loyal to Trump's ideologies (which is pretty much all of them) being put into office.
The same guy who wouldn't vote for 4 more years of Trump's bullshit may be more than willing to give the new guy a chance because "Biden raised mah gas prices!"
DeSantis would be my worst nightmare. He's already shown that he's more than willing to kill people just to prove he's right. And unlike Trump he actually knows what he's doing.
YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:53 pm
I'm not terribly worried about Trump being put back in office. I *am* terribly worried about a Republican loyal to Trump's ideologies (which is pretty much all of them) being put into office.
The same guy who wouldn't vote for 4 more years of Trump's bullshit may be more than willing to give the new guy a chance because "Biden raised mah gas prices!"
DeSantis would be my worst nightmare. He's already shown that he's more than willing to kill people just to prove he's right. And unlike Trump he actually knows what he's doing.
Not to scare you, but he has been (or his superpac) blasting the mail asking for money in the past few months - at least two states away from Florida, and maybe (very probably) further. He's definitely planning to run if you ask me. Seems to have momentum and the right talking points that the Trumpsters like to hear.
YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:53 pm
I'm not terribly worried about Trump being put back in office. I *am* terribly worried about a Republican loyal to Trump's ideologies (which is pretty much all of them) being put into office.
The same guy who wouldn't vote for 4 more years of Trump's bullshit may be more than willing to give the new guy a chance because "Biden raised mah gas prices!"
DeSantis would be my worst nightmare. He's already shown that he's more than willing to kill people just to prove he's right. And unlike Trump he actually knows what he's doing.
Not to scare you, but he has been (or his superpac) blasting the mail asking for money in the past few months - at least two states away from Florida, and maybe (very probably) further. He's definitely planning to run if you ask me. Seems to have momentum and the right talking points that the Trumpsters like to hear.
Oh I have no doubt he will run. The super duper worst case scenario? Trump/Desantis ticket. I could see that happening.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:45 pm
by LordMortis
Octavious wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:34 pm
Trump/Desantis ticket. I could see that happening.
If by see that happening you mean better than 50/50 by today's odds then I'm with you. I put Destantis on the ticket as PoTUS or Trump's VP at 80%+ in the general.
Octavious wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:34 pm
Trump/Desantis ticket. I could see that happening.
If by see that happening you mean better than 50/50 by today's odds then I'm with you. I put Destantis on the ticket as PoTUS or Trump's VP at 80%+ in the general.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:58 pm
by LordMortis
[zaxxon]we're fucked[/zaxxon]
But at least you can take solace no matter who runs, I'll support your democratic nominee.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:03 pm
by Zaxxon
LordMortis wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:58 pm
[zaxxon]we're fucked[/zaxxon]
But at least you can take solace no matter who runs, I'll support your democratic nominee.
Maybe if it all goes to hell we can all move to an island and form an anarcho-syndicalist commune. Perhaps take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week, but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of purely external affairs.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:45 pm
by Holman
It's hard to believe that a country that rejected Trump in 2020 would decide they want him again in 2024. The latest polling is that only 44% of *Republicans* want Trump to run again. That's not a sign of Trumpian resurgence.
Trump's hold on the hardcore base might be a good thing for Democrats. There's talk of Republican operatives begging him not to announce his candidacy early because they believe it will hurt the GOP in the midterms.
If Biden's approach continues to hit snags and his numbers don't rebound, I imagine he'll step aside and let some other Dem (probably Harris) take the top spot. I really don't get the sense that he's in it for his ego.
LordMortis wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:58 pm
[zaxxon]we're fucked[/zaxxon]
But at least you can take solace no matter who runs, I'll support your democratic nominee.
Maybe if it all goes to hell we can all move to an island and form an anarcho-syndicalist commune. Perhaps take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week, but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of purely external affairs.
I'm in as long as it doesn't involve farcical aquatic ceremonies.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:41 pm
by malchior
The trouble with traditional analysis is that 2024 is almost certainly not going to be a normal election. The GOP may have more anti democratic tools in their tool belt and less respect for democratic norms. The situation may very well be even worse than it is now. It's too early to tell yet though. One upside I can think of is their is an advantage of running as the incumbent. It will provide more constitutional crisis options.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:58 pm
by Zaxxon
Holman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:45 pm
If Biden's approach continues to hit snags and his numbers don't rebound, I imagine he'll step aside and let some other Dem (probably Harris) take the top spot. I really don't get the sense that he's in it for his ego.
Regardless of his numbers, I hope he'll do that. He's turning 82 in Nov of '24. Sleepy Joe of 2020 has nothing on Geriatric Joe of 2024.
Holman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:45 pm
If Biden's approach continues to hit snags and his numbers don't rebound, I imagine he'll step aside and let some other Dem (probably Harris) take the top spot. I really don't get the sense that he's in it for his ego.
Regardless of his numbers, I hope he'll do that. He's turning 82 in Nov of '24. Sleepy Joe of 2020 has nothing on Geriatric Joe of 2024.
/nod
I really don't know why we don't have a maximum age requirement like we do for minimum age.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:44 pm
by Kraken
Jimmy Carter will be 100, and he just recently hung up his hammer.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:00 pm
by Drazzil
Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:44 pm
Jimmy Carter will be 100, and he just recently hung up his hammer.
I'd think a minimum age of 21 and a max of 60-65 would be appropiate. If we only allow 21-60 year olds to fly passenger planes, then how much more for national leadership?
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:16 am
by Blackhawk
hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:30 pm
Welp, it's Trump in 2024. Thanks America.
Thanks, Democrats. And I don't mean the voters.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:55 pm
by hepcat
Democrats are part of America...despite what Trump wants you to believe.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:23 pm
by LordMortis
hepcat wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:55 pm
Democrats are part of America...despite what Trump wants you to believe.
hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:30 pm
Welp, it's Trump in 2024. Thanks America.
No blame for Biden? Come on.
I can't say much because I was kinda hoping Harris would win the nomination, and from what I have seen so far (in her role as VP of course), I am glad she didn't. I don't know that anybody on the ticket would have been better than Biden, but he was not even one of my first few choices.
I appreciate the obvious challenges of inheriting a post-Trump WH (and government, really), so I don't discount that. Not to even mention the whole "rigged election" bullshit that JUST. WON'T. DIE.
Who do we like in 2024?
Maybe we can start playing ball like the GOP and do something unconstitutional. Where's Obama these days?! Although honestly, I think we need someone much harder than Obama. I don't want to Mr. Robot the world like Drazzil, but moderate, old school Democrats are not getting it done, and are probably not CAPABLE of getting it done in this environment.
Edit: To be clear, I would be satisified with the mere appearance of concern and activity around countering the growing taint of authoritarianism, and attacks on our Democracry. If they did NOTHING more than that, I would be content. And that, to me is the "it" referenced above in case you were going to ask. Biden and Co's "it" appears to be different than mine, though, thus my criticism.
I'd settle for a razor elbowed middle of the road democrat that decided that he wanted a legacy more then money or position. Someone who wasen't afraid to get down in the muck and call the other team a bunch of pigfuckers. We need a Johnson. Johnson would destroy the Republicans of today. Or even a Nixon.
malchior wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:37 pm
We're on the same wavelength. I resisted a similar post. The worst thing was for me is this is what I expected. Biden just isn't hard nosed enough. I think we could have used someone who had sharper elbows and better command of the bully pulpit. All this behind the scenes maneuvering is just too invisible which is analogous to a problem he had during the campaign as well.
There's no way to know, but FWIW I doubt that Biden is a major factor here one way or the other. The core problem here is Manchin and Sinema - if they were on board the reconciliation bill would've passed a month or so ago. Manchin is in a Trump +35 state, so Biden has no real source of political leverage with him, nor would President Sanders or President Harris or what have you.
Would another President have more sway with Sinema? Maybe, but she seems more fruit loops than anything. Maybe the healing crystals lady would've gotten through to her.
Biden has plenty of political capital, it's just that he's too genteel with his buddies in the establishment. Any president worth his salt would have knocked those two assholes down with either blackmail or Prosecution. Manchin and his daughter and Sinemma are all very guilty of insider trading. The DoJ just doesen't want to take it to a grand jury.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:39 pm
by milo
Manchin would be replaced with a Republican senator and Mitch McConnell would resume his position as Senate Majority Leader. Mitch would then refuse to bring any legislation or judicial nominees to the floor for a vote until Trump is reinstated.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:57 pm
by hepcat
Drazzil wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:21 pm
Any tyrant worth his salt would have knocked those two assholes down with either blackmail or Prosecution.
FTFY. You really do make it clear at times that you would prefer living in North Korea or Russia. What you continuously propose is the exact opposite of what you believe you’re trying to achieve.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:58 pm
by Holman
Drazzil wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:21 pm
Biden has plenty of political capital, it's just that he's too genteel with his buddies in the establishment. Any president worth his salt would have knocked those two assholes down with either blackmail or Prosecution. Manchin and his daughter and Sinemma are all very guilty of insider trading. The DoJ just doesen't want to take it to a grand jury.
Biden has almost no political capital at this point. The House is a close vote while the Senate is literally 50-50 with two moderates (at least) controlling the action.
Your fantasy of "either blackmail or Prosecution" is ridiculous. Even if Manchin/Sinema had committed verifiable crimes (to... what, be elected Centrists?), prosecution would drag out for years from now.
Drazzil wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:21 pm
Biden has plenty of political capital, it's just that he's too genteel with his buddies in the establishment. Any president worth his salt would have knocked those two assholes down with either blackmail or Prosecution. Manchin and his daughter and Sinemma are all very guilty of insider trading. The DoJ just doesen't want to take it to a grand jury.
Biden has almost no political capital at this point. The House is a close vote while the Senate is literally 50-50 with two moderates (at least) controlling the action.
Your fantasy of "either blackmail or Prosecution" is ridiculous. Even if Manchin/Sinema had committed verifiable crimes (to... what, be elected Centrists?), prosecution would drag out for years from now.
That's a good point. We could always try them state, and throw them in county. No special treatment.
Re: The Biden Presidency Thread
Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:56 am
by Alefroth
milo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:39 pm
Manchin would be replaced with a Republican senator and Mitch McConnell would resume his position as Senate Majority Leader. Mitch would then refuse to bring any legislation or judicial nominees to the floor for a vote until Trump is reinstated.
