[America] Domestic violent extremism

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Alefroth
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by Alefroth »

Prosecutor drops charges against bodyguard of reporter that shot and killed a militia member demonstrator, saying they could not overcome a self-defense defense.

http://idavox.com/index.php/2022/03/11/ ... r-be-next/
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by em2nought »

Domestic terrorism? A guy can't even wear a "Let's go Brandon" t-shirt on an airplane. :lol: I think y'all have things wrapped up nice and tight. :lol: Think I'm hungry for a Subway sandwich, and I've got a coupon! :wink:
Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

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Little Raven
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by Little Raven »

Huh.
Jurors on Friday acquitted two men of conspiring to kidnap Gov. Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan, and said they were deadlocked on charges against two others, in a significant defeat for federal prosecutors in one of the highest-profile domestic terrorism cases in decades.

The jury of six men and six women found Brandon Caserta and Daniel Harris not guilty of all charges against them, and did not reach any verdicts on the charges against Barry Croft and Adam Fox. All four of the men had been accused of plotting to snatch Ms. Whitmer, a Democrat, from her vacation home in 2020.

As the verdicts were read, federal prosecutors and F.B.I. agents sat in silence while Mr. Harris and Mr. Caserta hugged their lawyers.

“Obviously we’re disappointed in the outcome,” Andrew Birge, the United States attorney for the Western District of Michigan, said outside the courthouse. He added: “We still believe in the jury system, and really, there’s not too much more I can say at this time. I appreciate the time the jury put in. They listened to a lot of evidence, deliberated quite a bit.”
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Alefroth
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by Alefroth »

What the fork?

They had co-conspirators testify that the plot was legitimate.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by Skinypupy »

I can't help but wonder if the extreme political tribalism we see literally everywhere else creeps into situations like this as well.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by Little Raven »

Granted, the FBI was was up its usual dirty tricks...but that's never stopped them before.
The effort to prosecute the kidnapping plot, which BuzzFeed has extensively reported on, is sprawling. Both the prosecution and the defense are relying heavily on more than 1,000 hours of conversations and other events secretly recorded by informants or undercover agents. The defense lawyers want the case thrown out on entrapment grounds, accusing investigators of “egregious overreaching” by manipulating the accused men to drive the plot forward. Prosecutors will attempt to prove that the suspects were inclined toward the violence from the start.

In another challenge for the case, prosecutors have made an unusual decision not to call to the witness stand three F.B.I. agents with high-profile roles in the investigation. One agent was fired last summer after being charged with domestic violence. Another agent, while supervising “Big Dan,” tried to build a private security consulting firm based in part on some of his work for the F.B.I. Some of the information about that agent became part of the defense arguments.

...

He was not alone. The F.B.I. deployed at least 12 informants, as well as several undercover agents, according to defense filings. On the nighttime surveillance operation of the governor’s cottage, for example, the defense described “Big Dan” as the main organizer. Stephen Robeson, with a long history of both past crimes and work as an informant, was there too. The “explosives expert” who could topple the bridge was actually an undercover F.B.I. agent, as was a man in another vehicle.

The defense lawyers using that same trove of evidence material have built an entirely different scenario of what happened. They depict the accused as reluctant puppets entrapped by the F.B.I. agents and informants whom they say came up with the kidnapping plot.

...

Sting operations using informants are a thorny tactic in terror cases. In those developed after the Sept. 11 attacks, F.B.I. agents often got involved when someone expressed interest in joining Al Qaeda or in fomenting some kind of terrorist act. If the suspects had trouble agreeing on a plot or acquiring weapons, the informants or undercover agents would sometimes help them as a way of gauging criminal intent.

Critics of such F.B.I. methods like Michael German, a former undercover F.B.I. agent, accuse the agency of acting like Cecil B. DeMille, manufacturing complicated, theatrical scenarios rather than pursuing the more complex task of unearthing actual extremist plots.

Mr. German, who is now a fellow at the Liberty & National Security Program of the Brennan Center for Justice, said, “Rather than focus on those crimes and investigating them, there appears to be more interest in this method of manufacturing plots for the F.B.I. to solve.”
I guess this time the jury didn't buy it.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by malchior »

I don't know how to take this as anything less than bad. Really bad. I don't know if we'll get any real insight about the why here. We have lots of possibilities ranging from the government can't get its shit together to build winning cases to maybe the nightmare scenario that some jurors are politically aligned or siding with wannabe extremists/terrorists over the government.

Edit: If it's any indication there is wide spread cheering in the deplorable camps right now. It very well might not reflect on the jury at all but I more see it as a temperature of unrest. People on the right thought this was entrapment. The guys get acquitted. Therefore entrapment. That's not necessarily true but in the end it still might embolden more political violence.
Last edited by malchior on Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by Smoove_B »

I'm sure being unable to prosecute a kidnapping case involving a public official won't have any unforeseen negative consequences in the future.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:54 pm I'm sure being unable to prosecute a kidnapping case involving a public official won't have any unforeseen negative consequences in the future.
Right. Especially one where one of the exonerated people was brainstorming via texts about how to murder her. I'm a little shocked here. I knew there were problems and coverage of the day-to-day was weak but still it's hard to understand how this went so badly.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by malchior »

Yup - I agree. I would just suggest we can't dismiss it outright considering what we're seeing across the political spectrum.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by malchior »

Mass shooting at a Tops in Buffalo. The shooter published a manifesto that some have said indicates racial animus and extreme right wing views. He live streamed it so this is pretty similar to Christchurch.

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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by RunningMn9 »

That supermarket is about 5 miles from where I grew up (originally), which is closer than I am to the current supermarket that I use, although 5 miles on the east side of Buffalo might as well be 50 miles.

Absolutely horrendous for that community.
And in banks across the world
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by LordMortis »

I can't help but think of how terrible of a person I am. Once he threatened to blow his own head off, I would have let him. I don't understand how we slaughter so many not so violent criminals but then talk down and take in to custody so many murderous ones. I hope it's a sense of scale that I can't comprehend and the news worthiness of cases makes things seem different than they are in reality.

:cry:
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

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LordMortis wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 8:23 am I can't help but think of how terrible of a person I am. Once he threatened to blow his own head off, I would have let him. I don't understand how we slaughter so many not so violent criminals but then talk down and take in to custody so many murderous ones. I hope it's a sense of scale that I can't comprehend and the news worthiness of cases makes things seem different than they are in reality.
As many have said I'm sure, as soon as I heard that he was taken into custody, that told me an awful lot about him.

Another white supremacist radicalized by the bullshit spewed nightly by Tucker Carlson, and nothing will change. As awful as I feel for those in that community that were just trying to grocery shop, I feel still worse for the fact that nothing will change, and we will keep marching down this hill.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by LordMortis »

RunningMn9 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 8:59 am As many have said I'm sure, as soon as I heard that he was taken into custody, that told me an awful lot about him.
Gotta admit that stereotype is in my head as well.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by Unagi »

I can't help but sarcastically conclude that more guns may be needed and that mental health may soon be finally under control. Such a wonderful country we have here. And this guy drove in from miles away, so this isn't something we need to think about locally, thank God for that.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by malchior »

The right is going *ape shit* about this article. The author accurately IMO points out the origin of many of viewpoints pushed by the right made it into his released "manifesto".



And for balance a sampling of the crazy you'll see in MAGA land where the fringe ramblings of a mass murderer are more important than the ideas that he actually acted on. Ideas pushed consistently by folks in the leadership of a certain political party.

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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by malchior »

As expected. Vile and evil.

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[America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by Zarathud »

Because your political views inspire murder and show mental illness, you should choose to stop unless you’re a vile person. Like Tucker Carlson.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

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You can express them out loud. We are a free nation. You are just a shitty human and should be shunned by all reasonable people and even unreasonable people who realize they should still detest shitty people.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by Unagi »

malchior wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 11:02 pm
Or, maybe people are pointing out that your entire 'political view' boils down to hatred.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Anyone who doesn't think we have entered a new phase of violent domestic extremism should watch the first 20 seconds of the shooting. It is absolutely horrifying and will probably haunt you for the rest of your life but it will make anyone who hasn't lost all humanity understand how serious this is.

And I'm not recommending anyone here watch it. It should be required viewing for guys like Hannity.

And we have to have that conversation about these rifles in the hands of our unstable fellow citizens.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

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It should be required viewing for anyone who thinks that things don't need to change.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by Dogstar »

I'd imagine there's a chunk of the populace that do believe that things need to change. The challenge is what. Efforts to target the ideology's spread often run into the First Amendment/free speech arguments. The shooter in question likely wasn't radicalized by Carlson and Stefanik even if they do parrot the same Great Replacement Theory ideology. Twitch shut things down, but the video and the manifesto still spread with the Internet. Second Amendment restrictions aren't likely to make much headway with this Supreme Court, and it's questionable if restrictive permitting/more red flag laws will have a definite impact.

If it sounds like I'm advocating doing nothing, I'm not. It's just that whatever does get done, if anything, needs to be the right thing, or else the First and Second Amendment advocates will likely push back even harder against "failed policies."
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

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I have no intent to watch the video, but what is it about the first 20 seconds?
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
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Make up bags of change
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Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by LordMortis »

RunningMn9 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:51 pm I have no intent to watch the video, but what is it about the first 20 seconds?
Glad I'm not alone. I have it in me to see such things but I am curious to know why it's so soul crushing aside from the obvious.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by hepcat »

I had no desire to watch the actual shootings, but I wanted to hear the first few seconds to find out what he was saying to his "audience". Unfortunately, I stayed a few seconds longer than I should have and saw one of the deaths. I can't even begin to comprehend the level of evil it takes to shoot an innocent human being in cold blood like that. I thought I'd be outraged if I ever saw such a thing, but what I felt was just sadness and loss. :(
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by malchior »

RunningMn9 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:51 pm I have no intent to watch the video, but what is it about the first 20 seconds?
The video shows how ridiculous it is for citizens to have this firepower and just walk around with it. The difference between 6-8 people being alive and not is that 20 seconds. 4 are likely killed within 5 seconds of him stepping out of his vehicle. There is no level of awareness or preparation that could have saved those people.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

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The apology was just chilling. It conveyed so much more than any of the news stories or articles ever have.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

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LordMortis wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:55 pm
RunningMn9 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:51 pm I have no intent to watch the video, but what is it about the first 20 seconds?
Glad I'm not alone. I have it in me to see such things but I am curious to know why it's so soul crushing aside from the obvious.
You only need the first 20 or so seconds to know all you need to. It's a few things. I won't go into detail but you see the coldness of several murders and how living people are immediately turned into corpses in real life, as opposed to tv or film or your imagination. It's different, and worse. It's like someone snuffing out candles, not John Wick.

The transition from someone just casually pulling up in a parking lot to beginning a mass murder is instantaneous. There is no shouting or panic of people fleeing, just gun shots and bodies falling. He also casually headshots bodies as he walks by.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by Unagi »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:52 am
And we have to have that conversation about these rifles in the hands of our unstable fellow citizens.
I don’t think it’s realistic to think we will ever know (before it’s too late) who is stable and who is unstable.

I’m afraid nothing is going to change until the stable ones figure that notion out.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Unagi wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 3:41 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:52 am
And we have to have that conversation about these rifles in the hands of our unstable fellow citizens.
I don’t think it’s realistic to think we will ever know (before it’s too late) who is stable and who is unstable.

I’m afraid nothing is going to change until the stable ones figure that notion out.
That's the conversation we need to have. Were not even trying to get them out of unstable hands. But if that's not enough, and it very well may not be, what is our collective willingness to make sacrifices remove them from hands? And I'm not just taking about the "sacrifices" of people giving them up. I'm taking about the fight to do so: the political cost, financial cost, probably some cost of life. If we've learned anything, our collective will as a nation to make things better is pretty fucking low.



I may have mentioned this before but I had a 1-on-1, 6-hour defensive pistol class with a former CIA operator & former DEA agent. We got to talking about scenarios and one of them was how to handle someone with an AR15/AK or similar rifle when all you had was a pistol. He said, and keep in mind we'd just been hitting all 10-rings on multiple targets at 30 yards while running, "What would I do? Get to cover if you can and run away. You can't beat a rifle." He expounded but I won't get into it in this thread. Seeing the Buffalo victims dropping from hydrostatic shock and then being shot in the head brought a lot of it back though. Also, no one could get to cover and run.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by Unagi »

Truly horrifying. Just without words.

Truly. And when horrified I’m irrational. I’m just so sick of people needing guns.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by LordMortis »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:46 pm
LordMortis wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:55 pm
RunningMn9 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:51 pm I have no intent to watch the video, but what is it about the first 20 seconds?
Glad I'm not alone. I have it in me to see such things but I am curious to know why it's so soul crushing aside from the obvious.
You only need the first 20 or so seconds to know all you need to. It's a few things. I won't go into detail but you see the coldness of several murders and how living people are immediately turned into corpses in real life, as opposed to tv or film or your imagination. It's different, and worse. It's like someone snuffing out candles, not John Wick.

The transition from someone just casually pulling up in a parking lot to beginning a mass murder is instantaneous. There is no shouting or panic of people fleeing, just gun shots and bodies falling. He also casually headshots bodies as he walks by.
That's already too much for me. I don't need more.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by disarm »

I have a somewhat distant relative who fell victim to a random act of gun violence yesterday. He was 24yo and one of the nicest people you could meet; worked with the local volunteer fire department, EMS, and his dad has been a deputy with the local sheriff's department for more than 20 years...but that all ended in an instant last night.

The story is a little unclear, but it sounds like he saw a stopped car at the side of the road and pulled over (with one of his friends also in the truck) to offer assistance at the same time police were arriving in response to a 'stranded motorist' call. When they all got out of their cars, someone started shooting and two people are now dead...my distant cousin and the driver of the stopped car. At this point, they're not even sure who started shooting. Crazy story...

https://www.wlky.com/article/2-killed-o ... a/40015856
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by Little Raven »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:46 pmThe transition from someone just casually pulling up in a parking lot to beginning a mass murder is instantaneous. There is no shouting or panic of people fleeing, just gun shots and bodies falling. He also casually headshots bodies as he walks by.
If reports are to be believed, this person took a knife and hatchet to a cat just a few months ago.
He wrote that he chased down a cat who attacked his own cat, Paige, in his garage and stabbed it repeatedly with a knife. He eventually decapitated it with a hatchet, he said, and buried it in the backyard, but not before taking a picture.
It seems safe to say that Mr. Gendron is not a well individual. :shock:
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:10 pmThat's the conversation we need to have.
Well I'm down. But I gotta say, this particular case looks like a doozy.
For months, as 18-year-old Payton Gendron formulated a plan to kill dozens of Black people in Buffalo, he worked to keep his racist plot a secret from his family, according to Gendron’s postings online.

“I literally can’t wait any longer, my parents know something is wrong,” he wrote on April 15, musing about when to carry out a planned shooting that took place Saturday, leaving 10 people dead at a Buffalo supermarket.

...

In June of last year, Gendron underwent a psychiatric evaluation after he said in an online high school class that he planned to commit “murder/suicide.” Gendron wrote that he was cleared after he told the evaluators he was joking to get out of class. “It was not a joke,” he said in the Discord messages. “I wrote that down because that’s what I was planning to do.”

...

“I just had a meeting with my parents about everything that happened this week,” he wrote on March 29. “I lied nearly the entire time. I said I was doing fine in school and going to every class when I haven’t been in a class for weeks now.”
Mr. Gendron represents just about the worst possible scenario - we have an individual that is unfortunately cracked to the core, but is JUST functional enough to realize how broken he is and effectively mask it - for a little while at least. Obviously, his deceptions wouldn't have lasted forever, but again, he's JUST functional enough to realize that, and to make sure that he goes out in spectacular fashion before his lies come crashing down on him. He is well aware that he is effectively ending his life by doing this - and doesn't care. Heck, he's positively looking forward to it. Stopping someone like this is very hard. Frankly, I'm not sure how we do that without blanket bans, and I don't see the political support for blanket bans. Maybe Buffalo will be the one that finally moves the needle?
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by Zarathud »

If you can’t stop them, you defang them to limit the damage.
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Re: [America] Domestic violent extremism

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Frankly, I'm not sure how we do that without blanket bans, and I don't see the political support for blanket bans. Maybe Buffalo will be the one that finally moves the needle?
I'm not sure either. I would say it's going to take a lot of gun owners deciding not to be so blindly single issue but we can only vote slates now. So they'd have to flip on their single issue. We're pretty screwed.
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