The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Kraken »

I have to confess that moved from the Always category to Rarely after Wife and I both got mild covid with no lasting effects. The big mean dog finally caught us after giving chase for 2.5 years, and its bark turned out to be worse than its bite. I know the dog still wants to bite me but I'm not afraid anymore. I still mask up if I'm riding the T or going to an indoor play or concert, and if the grocery store parking lot is crowded -- it's normally pretty empty when I do my Thursday afternoon shop. Other than that, not so much anymore.

When I went to see my doc a couple weeks ago I wore a mask into his lobby. None of the staff were masked, but they're behind a glass window, so I kept mine on. The nurse wasn't masked either, yet I persisted. When the bare-faced doc came in I pulled my mask down and said "So I gather we aren't doing these anymore?" and he said "Not if you're vaccinated, unless it makes you feel more comfortable." End mask.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Pyperkub »

How the folks who want to make polio great again are growing...

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/po ... s-00057898
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Yeah, we're definitely moving backwards now. Still confused on it all. I was looking yesterday at the job market and there are more jobs in local health now than I've ever seen in 25 years. Not because extra money has been provided and services are expanding, but because people I've known for 2 decades are saying they can't take anymore and they're fleeing the field.

Related, I missed this on Sunday, but it's an excellent OpEd on comments made by the CDC director in March of 2022 (edit):
More surprising, the principal official charged with managing the COVID-19 crisis in the United States has made remarkably similar claims. When asked to predict the future of the pandemic in a discussion with physicians at Washington University in St. Louis earlier this month, CDC director Rochelle Walensky said “we will have a coronavirus that will lead to death in some people every season that we will then tolerate in some way.” The critical question is who those “some people” are.

Walensky began the conversation in St. Louis by noting, correctly, that “where infectious diseases go” is not “places of wealth but places of poverty and places of lack of access.” She added that we would see this in long COVID as well, “where those who have been more commonly afflicted with the disease, who had less access to care and more comorbidities and therefore high risk are going to bear the burden of that disease as well.”
Inequity is of course a central fact in the unequal burden of disease. But in noting that we will come to “tolerate” COVID-19 deaths, Walensky is suggesting that deaths among the poor and among those with comorbidities are somehow acceptable.
Why is this a problem?
Still, the statement shows a deep and increasingly common disregard for the deaths of those with underlying health problems. The implication is that vaccinated Americans should celebrate the knowledge that those with no comorbidities are extremely unlikely to die from COVID. But children under five cannot yet be vaccinated, and for the 3 percent of Americans who take immunosuppressant drugs, vaccines have not proven effective.
Moreover, according to the CDC’s own data, many if not most Americans suffer from underlying health problems that put them at risk for COVID hospitalization and death. As I have noted elsewhere, two-thirds of Americans are overweight or obese, nearly 15 percent are diabetic, and roughly half of Americans have hypertension. Seven percent have coronary artery disease, 40 percent will be diagnosed with cancer in their lifetimes, and 15 percent have chronic kidney disease. According to the American Lung Association, more than 10 percent have chronic lung disease. And many Americans suffer from several of these conditions at once. For the past 20 years, two-thirds to four-fifths of all deaths here have had multiple causes. Comorbidity is a basic fact of American life. Rather than find solace in the idea that only those with underlying health conditions are vulnerable, we should be troubled by the prevalence of comorbidity.
It comes back to a sentiment I've observed regarding all this - that people are largely ok with how thing are because they aren't in or don't believe they're in the current category of "at risk". But at some point that will change, even if they remain healthy into their 70s by virtue of simply being old. If the communicated policy is "Well, that's just the way it will be, we should accept death in these groups..." that is...a horrific sentiment to be stated by the head of the CDC.

In short:
Public health is dedicated to the protection of populations rather than individuals. This often entails utilitarian calculations about how limited resources can do the most good. The normalizing of COVID-19 deaths involves a cruel calculation that privileges resilient Americans over vulnerable ones, exacerbating their risk where it should be working to minimize it.

If those charged with managing our public health have come to accept deaths among the poor, the immunocompromised, older Americans, and those with underlying health conditions as those we should “tolerate,” they are actively devaluing the lives of those in greatest need of their support. As we march toward a future of endemic COVID-19, we must struggle to defend the most vulnerable rather than sacrifice them.
Last edited by Smoove_B on Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Zaxxon »

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:53 am Related, I missed this on Sunday, but it's an excellent OpEd on comments made by the CDC director earlier this month:
That's 6 months old. Noticed due to this:
But children under five cannot yet be vaccinated
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Huh. I'll update (and drink more coffee).

The sentiment still holds and is currently unfolding, unfortunately.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Jaymon »

But the pandemic IS over. Covid has defeated humanity. It is no longer possibly to halt its spread, or to eradicate it. Covid is here to stay.

Its time to stop bailing the boat, focus your efforts on learning how to swim.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by stessier »

Jaymon wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:58 pm But the pandemic IS over. Covid has defeated humanity. It is no longer possibly to halt its spread, or to eradicate it. Covid is here to stay.

Its time to stop bailing the boat, focus your efforts on learning how to swim.
The rebuttal to that is it's not too late - we only need the Will to win. The same measures that were haphazardly implemented previously could still work today if done properly. I can see how it's frustrating to those who can see the solution and suffering it would save if only...
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Carpet_pissr »

I think it’s been shown that we collectively lack the will to ‘win’ (however you define that in this scenario).

Now what?
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Zaxxon »

stessier wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:11 pmThe rebuttal to that is it's not too late - we only need the Will to win. The same measures that were haphazardly implemented previously could still work today if done properly. I can see how it's frustrating to those who can see the solution and suffering it would save if only...
With the caveat that I agree wholeheartedly with the entirety of your post: we do not have the will to win. We are so far from having the will to win that it's quite clear to me that we will never in my lifetime have said will.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Zaxxon wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:45 pm
stessier wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:11 pmThe rebuttal to that is it's not too late - we only need the Will to win. The same measures that were haphazardly implemented previously could still work today if done properly. I can see how it's frustrating to those who can see the solution and suffering it would save if only...
With the caveat that I agree wholeheartedly with the entirety of your post: we do not have the will to win. We are so far from having the will to win that it's quite clear to me that we will never in my lifetime have said will.
We can't even agree on what a win is.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by stessier »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:41 pm I think it’s been shown that we collectively lack the will to ‘win’ (however you define that in this scenario).

Now what?
I've already started learning how to swim, but I still feel for the prophets crying out in the desert.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Zaxxon »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:49 pm
Zaxxon wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:45 pm
stessier wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:11 pmThe rebuttal to that is it's not too late - we only need the Will to win. The same measures that were haphazardly implemented previously could still work today if done properly. I can see how it's frustrating to those who can see the solution and suffering it would save if only...
With the caveat that I agree wholeheartedly with the entirety of your post: we do not have the will to win. We are so far from having the will to win that it's quite clear to me that we will never in my lifetime have said will.
We can't even agree on what a win is.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Victoria Raverna »

stessier wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:11 pm
Jaymon wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:58 pm But the pandemic IS over. Covid has defeated humanity. It is no longer possibly to halt its spread, or to eradicate it. Covid is here to stay.

Its time to stop bailing the boat, focus your efforts on learning how to swim.
The rebuttal to that is it's not too late - we only need the Will to win. The same measures that were haphazardly implemented previously could still work today if done properly. I can see how it's frustrating to those who can see the solution and suffering it would save if only...
Seem to me like COVID-19 winning is inevitable. All those measures only could delay it but eventually it'll win.

Just look at countries that was more successful in COVID-19 handling like Taiwan, South Korea or Japan. They're now at the top 10 daily new cases ahead of some countries that screwed up the COVID-19 handling.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Blackhawk »

Yeah, we can win. We can just choose to implement the correct measures. Just like we can end obesity, war, and the climate crisis - we just need to choose to.

Spoiler: We won't choose to.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Apollo »

ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:30 am
Apollo wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:50 pm
LordMortis wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:37 pm ...I'm ready to join them. I've been to a few outdoor markets over the summer and I don't mask there along with no one else masking and it's nice to faceless by having a face and to not breath the heat in and out. I'm so ready to go to a bar and sit and drink and sit and drink...
Join us! I stopped wearing a mask (except where required) in May 2021 after becoming fully vaccinated and being worn out from wearing the mask outdoors in the heat. My reasoning? I was fully vaccinated at that point, and tired of bending over backwards to protect people who don't give a shit about their own health.
I'm not going to sit here and lecture you on wearing a mask or not. I would kindly request that you not actively and gleefully encourage others who may be masking to stop wearing their masks, though, for those of us who do give a shit about our loved ones and their health. Some of us aren't so fortunate that we can pretend this is over because our loved ones, even if they are fully vaxxed and masked, are still at a higher risk of serious complications and death from COVID. I've come to peace with other folks deciding that they're done masking, but it does hit me wrong when they're advocating that others give up measures that help to protect my loved ones, even if it's only minutely.
Sorry, but that's how I feel. Since you've brought the issue back up, I'll remind everyone that it is their right to wear masks forever and it won't effect me one bit. But the stress of wearing a mask in 90+ degree heat was damaging my mental health more than I ever would have realized. I am just offering this advice for those who, like myself, think that wearing a mask at this point is harming them more than helping them. And if you think I'm alone in that regard, just take a look at how angry, hateful, and violent all the Covid restrictions made so many people in this country over the past couple of years.

Obviously, if you are a high risk individual, or live with those who are, you should continue to take whatever precautions you deem necessary. When I offered Lord Mortis that advice, I had no idea he was such a high risk individual (my only risk factor is my age...55), but I also feel that he, and everyone else in this forum, is intelligent enough to make their own decisions. I guess the ultimate point I was trying to make is that constantly living in fear of Covid has damaged the mental health of millions, especially the young, so there's more than one way to look at this issue. Some folks may not mind wearing masks indefinitely, but it had become a real problem for some, myself included.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Apollo wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:58 pm And if you think I'm alone in that regard, just take a look at how angry, hateful, and violent all the Covid restrictions made so many people in this country over the past couple of years.
I didn't get like that and I know many people who didn't. What makes us different?
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

It's been a long day, so the only thing I'm going to say right now is that there's no such thing as an individual public health response.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Isgrimnur »

Alefroth wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:27 pm
Apollo wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:58 pm And if you think I'm alone in that regard, just take a look at how angry, hateful, and violent all the Covid restrictions made so many people in this country over the past couple of years.
I didn't get like that and I know many people who didn't. What makes us different?
My take is that these people were angry, hateful, and violent well before the current pandemic.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Alefroth »

I suspect you are correct.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Blackhawk »

I wear a seat belt. I have smoke and CO2 detectors. I disinfect my counters after preparing meat. I wash my hands after going to the bathroom. I look both ways before I cross the street.

Taking precautions =/= living in fear.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Apollo »

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:34 pm
Alefroth wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:27 pm
Apollo wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:58 pm And if you think I'm alone in that regard, just take a look at how angry, hateful, and violent all the Covid restrictions made so many people in this country over the past couple of years.
I didn't get like that and I know many people who didn't. What makes us different?
My take is that these people were angry, hateful, and violent well before the current pandemic.
No doubt that is true in many cases but some of the restrictions, particularly the idea of shutting down entire industries for months, put individuals and families under immense financial pressure that was a contributing factor in a lot of the increased violence we have seen during the pandemic. Stress and anxiety about the disease itself also played a part:

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ ... -violence/

https://pennstatehealthnews.org/2021/10 ... -pandemic/

On the other hand, reports of child abuse decreased, so I suppose there was one interesting side effect.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Zarathud »

National emergencies are stressful. I didn’t know you promoted coddling Americans from making hard choices, refused to demand that people take personal responsibility for their communities, and rejected asking citizens to accept personal sacrifices for the common good.

Communist. Conservatives were tougher in the old days. ;)
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LordMortis »

Apollo wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:12 pm No doubt that is true in many cases but some of the restrictions, particularly the idea of shutting down entire industries for months, put individuals and families under immense financial pressure that was a contributing factor in a lot of the increased violence we have seen during the pandemic. Stress and anxiety about the disease itself also played a part:

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ ... -violence/

https://pennstatehealthnews.org/2021/10 ... -pandemic/

On the other hand, reports of child abuse decreased, so I suppose there was one interesting side effect.
Isn't it just as easy to say these things happened leading up to and after the 2020 elections? I'm not gonna say who but there have been a group of people making their bread and butter stirring up anger, hatred, and violence since 2015 and they really started stirring the pot again in 2019. (and yeah, mask wearing and isolation did not help as I am sure financial stress didn't for many either)
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Defiant »

If win means eliminate covid or stop every single death, I don't think we can win.

If win means reduce the consequences of covid on society (fewer deaths, long covid, etc), to the point where it's similar to the flu or other diseases, I think we can. Improving ventilation in all buildings (or increased use of air purifiers), improved vaccination (including nasal vaccines to block it at the point of infection) and increasing vaccination rates, better treatments, better monitoring (eg, wastewater checking), etc.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by ImLawBoy »

Apollo wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:58 pm
ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:30 am
Apollo wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:50 pm
LordMortis wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:37 pm ...I'm ready to join them. I've been to a few outdoor markets over the summer and I don't mask there along with no one else masking and it's nice to faceless by having a face and to not breath the heat in and out. I'm so ready to go to a bar and sit and drink and sit and drink...
Join us! I stopped wearing a mask (except where required) in May 2021 after becoming fully vaccinated and being worn out from wearing the mask outdoors in the heat. My reasoning? I was fully vaccinated at that point, and tired of bending over backwards to protect people who don't give a shit about their own health.
I'm not going to sit here and lecture you on wearing a mask or not. I would kindly request that you not actively and gleefully encourage others who may be masking to stop wearing their masks, though, for those of us who do give a shit about our loved ones and their health. Some of us aren't so fortunate that we can pretend this is over because our loved ones, even if they are fully vaxxed and masked, are still at a higher risk of serious complications and death from COVID. I've come to peace with other folks deciding that they're done masking, but it does hit me wrong when they're advocating that others give up measures that help to protect my loved ones, even if it's only minutely.
Sorry, but that's how I feel. Since you've brought the issue back up, I'll remind everyone that it is their right to wear masks forever and it won't effect me one bit. But the stress of wearing a mask in 90+ degree heat was damaging my mental health more than I ever would have realized. I am just offering this advice for those who, like myself, think that wearing a mask at this point is harming them more than helping them. And if you think I'm alone in that regard, just take a look at how angry, hateful, and violent all the Covid restrictions made so many people in this country over the past couple of years.

Obviously, if you are a high risk individual, or live with those who are, you should continue to take whatever precautions you deem necessary. When I offered Lord Mortis that advice, I had no idea he was such a high risk individual (my only risk factor is my age...55), but I also feel that he, and everyone else in this forum, is intelligent enough to make their own decisions. I guess the ultimate point I was trying to make is that constantly living in fear of Covid has damaged the mental health of millions, especially the young, so there's more than one way to look at this issue. Some folks may not mind wearing masks indefinitely, but it had become a real problem for some, myself included.
ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:33 pm I totally get that it's a balancing act for each person/family. I'm very sympathetic to mental health issues related to continued masking, or social issues for kids, etc. I'm not going to be the guy who yells for everyone to wear masks from now until eternity because I've got a kid who is particularly vulnerable.
I even tried to give you the benefit of the doubt.
ImLawBoy wrote:I don't think Apollo meant any ill will when he typed "Join us!" and intimated his continuing safeguards were only going to protect those who aren't doing their part. I suspect he was just being glib, but it still strikes me harshly as someone who has sat by his son's bedside watching the ventilator breathe for him for much of a month because a cold got out of control a few years ago and turned into pneumonia.
And I'll reemphasize it again: I'm not going to give you grief for your decision not to wear a mask. I just wish you wouldn't actively advocate for others who are wearing masks (for whatever reason) to stop.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Defiant wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:37 am If win means reduce the consequences of covid on society (fewer deaths, long covid, etc), to the point where it's similar to the flu or other diseases, I think we can. Improving ventilation in all buildings (or increased use of air purifiers), improved vaccination (including nasal vaccines to block it at the point of infection) and increasing vaccination rates, better treatments, better monitoring (eg, wastewater checking), etc.
Important word underlined.

Of course we can. But after the past two years, is there any reason at all to believe that we will?

And if we will not, then, for all practical purposes, we can not.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Zaxxon »

Zaxxon wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:45 pm[W]e do not have the will to win. We are so far from having the will to win that it's quite clear to me that we will never in my lifetime have said will.
Re-posted for emphasis.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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And if the battle is already lost (and it is), then coming up with new strategies in the midst of the rout isn't useful. Sadly, the fallback plans are all individual, not community.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:09 am And if the battle is already lost (and it is), then coming up with new strategies in the midst of the rout isn't useful. Sadly, the fallback plans are all individual, not community.
Which goes back to the comments made by Walensky and the OpEd I'd linked yesterday. Namely, by pushing this on to individuals we've communicated that very specific groups of people are going to feel the impacts of Covid-19 and we are not going to do anything about it. It makes my skin crawl just to type that.

Some have suggested we've entered a new phase of public health - a sort of vaccine singularism, where that is the only thing we'll do anymore. To be clear, vaccines are pretty good and in this situation they definitely help, but the ~2.5 billion people that haven't been vaccinated globally and for those here in America that don't receive full protection from vaccines? Well, here's hoping doctors can save them.

I know I keep using this as an example, but so much of what's unfolding really reminds me of the smoking in public places debate that was raging 20+ years ago. Every possible argument was used (You can't tell me what to do, it's my choice, I have rights, I have freedom to smoke, etc...) but it wasn't until we could clearly demonstrate how it was impacting others (especially workers in bars and restaurants) that the needle finally moved. The difference with Covid is significant, but the core of the argument is still there - what you're doing (unmasked, indoors) is potentially impacting the health of those around you. And in locations where people don't have a choice in terms of where they need to be (work, school, food store, pharmacy) expecting people to put themselves at increased risk because of your perceived rights or freedoms is...something. Voluntary activities are one thing (like going to a restaurant) but at the same time the people working in those locations are at risk - in the same way that bartenders and waitstaff were at increased risk for lung cancer from the patrons that would smoke.

Long term and bigger picture the answer involves better filtration. But no one is going to pay for it and the government is apparently not going to mandate it any time soon. In the short term, the answer is masking - to drive down circulating virus. I know I'm a broken record here, but I've had 4 cups of coffee and I'm at my peak. :wink:

I'm not wearing a mask because I'm afraid of a virus. I'm wearing a mask in public to try and help people that need additional protections in the places they need to be. In my work place I'm wearing a mask (as part of a requirement to do so) to make sure people aren't excluded from a space they are required to be in.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Except in this scenario 95% of the workers are also chain-smoking.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Smoove_B wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:32 am
Blackhawk wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:09 am And if the battle is already lost (and it is), then coming up with new strategies in the midst of the rout isn't useful. Sadly, the fallback plans are all individual, not community.
Which goes back to the comments made by Walensky and the OpEd I'd linked yesterday. Namely, by pushing this on to individuals we've communicated that very specific groups of people are going to feel the impacts of Covid-19 and we are not going to do anything about it. It makes my skin crawl just to type that.
I’m not sure why this makes your skin crawl. Don’t health risks and burdens usually fall on specific groups? Obviously, as a society, we should do what we can to minimize those risks and burdens for those small groups, but that’s also a societal risk/benefit calculation. How small is the group effected? What is the impact to that group? How significant is the cost to the rest of society to protect that group? Putting words in your mouth, I guess what you’re really saying here is you fundamentally disagree with the specific cost/benefit calculation being done here regarding COVID. But as a general matter, specific groups feeling an outsized impact of a disease is nothing new, right? That’s pretty much how it always is, with pretty much every disease or public health crisis.
Smoove_B wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:32 am I know I keep using this as an example, but so much of what's unfolding really reminds me of the smoking in public places debate that was raging 20+ years ago. Every possible argument was used (You can't tell me what to do, it's my choice, I have rights, I have freedom to smoke, etc...) but it wasn't until we could clearly demonstrate how it was impacting others (especially workers in bars and restaurants) that the needle finally moved. The difference with Covid is significant, but the core of the argument is still there - what you're doing (unmasked, indoors) is potentially impacting the health of those around you. And in locations where people don't have a choice in terms of where they need to be (work, school, food store, pharmacy) expecting people to put themselves at increased risk because of your perceived rights or freedoms is...something. Voluntary activities are one thing (like going to a restaurant) but at the same time the people working in those locations are at risk - in the same way that bartenders and waitstaff were at increased risk for lung cancer from the patrons that would smoke.
I know you acknowledged that there’s a big difference between the public health issues surrounding COVID and smoking, but I think your repeated use of this examples highlights a place where you and people who advocate a return to normal life are basically ships passing in the night.

Addressing the public health crisis caused by smoking is fundamentally different from COVID because the way to address it was simply to make people stop smoking (indoors, in public places, in general). Smoking is not necessary. It’s not good for you. It’s just not a healthy thing in any way shape or form. Radically reducing the number of smokers in this country was a clear and unequivocal win for society.

Addressing COVID (masking, social distancing, business closures, reduced social interaction) is not a clear and unequivocal win for society. Yet, I feel there’s a blinders-on kind of disregard for the burdens and risks and deleterious effects that go hand-in-hand with continuing to strive for “a win” against COVID.

When you tee it up as, “expecting people to put themselves at increased risk because of your perceived rights or freedoms,” I think it’s disingenuous or just completely discounting the costs to continuing to live in a state of war against a disease that is already endemic. Some a-holes are certainly in it for their “freedumbs” but there are an awful lot — I’d suggest the vast majority — of people who don’t want to continue to mask and socially distance because they see those measures (and others) as exacting a serious cost and doing real damage to themselves and society as a whole.
Last edited by Kurth on Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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My personal opinion on this:

I think COVID was/is a national trauma that came at a VERY bad time... the Trump Presidency, which brought problems such as rise of MAGA, Qanon, and GOP advocacy of individual responsibility, that greatly hampered a coordinated response to COVID. GOP and GOP-aligned ideologies decided to make COVID a political issue instead of a public health issue, and the result is the most COVID casualties in the entire world despite being the first to make available a COVID vaccine, and probably having the most available vaccine anywhere.

Most Americans *are* reasonable and a good number of them did take the COVID vaccine. It's those loudmouths and mockers that got the media coverage... and the backlash as they paid the price in catching COVID and dying.

While CDC and Biden Admin inherited the mess and do the best they can with it, and they know they can't do a vaccine mandate because vaccine issue is STILL politicized up the wazoo. And with Trumpie packing the SCOTUS with conservatives and RvW overturned, it won't pass a judicial review. Since the Feds can't lead it, and many individual states are actively sabotaging the COVID efforts (*cough* Florida *cough* Texas) for months, the best way forward seems to be just let individuals take their own lead. Those who are reasonable are taking all reasonable precautions. And those who are not... are on their own. Politics had made covering that vulnerable segment of the population a liability instead of a responsibility.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Kurth wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:10 pm I’m not sure why this makes your skin crawl. Don’t health risks and burdens usually fall on specific groups? Obviously, as a society, we should do what we can to minimize those risks and burdens for those small groups, but that’s also a societal risk/benefit calculation. How small is the group effected? What is the impact to that group? How significant is the cost to the rest of society to protect that group? Putting words in your mouth, I guess what you’re really saying here is you fundamentally disagree with the specific cost/benefit calculation being done here regarding COVID. But as a general matter, specific groups feeling an outsized impact of a disease is nothing new, right? That’s pretty much how it always is, with pretty much every disease or public health crisis.
I think it's because for so many things we were "catching up" - recognizing that holy crap, lead in paint is bad (for everyone) but it's disproportionately impacting specific cohorts and communities and has been for decades. Trying to address it has been difficult because despite potentially impacting everyone, it's disproportionately impacting marginalized populations.

Right now we have a situation that came out of no where and it's doing the same exact thing. We're not trying to catch up to 40+ years of ignoring or minimizing an issue, it just started and it's still happening. We are not the society from the 1970s and 1980s that ignored the problem and yet are now tasked with trying to address it. It's unfolding today and we're doing it. That's what makes my skin crawl. I wanted to believe we were better than that; I was wrong.
I know you acknowledged that there’s a big difference between the public health issues surrounding COVID and smoking, but I think your repeated use of this examples highlights a place where you and people who advocate a return to normal life are basically ships passing in the night.

Addressing the public health crisis caused by smoking is fundamentally different from COVID because the way to address it was simply to make people stop smoking (indoors, in public places, in general). Smoking is not necessary. It’s not good for you. It’s just not a healthy thing in any way shape or form. Radically reducing the number of smokers in this country was a clear and unequivocal win for society.

Addressing COVID (masking, social distancing, business closures, reduced social interaction) is not a clear and unequivocal win for society. Yet, I feel there’s a blinders-on kind of disregard for the burdens and risks and deleterious effects that go hand-in-hand with continuing to strive for “a win” against COVID.
Yes, that's why it's not a great example - ignoring the addiction elements, it's a voluntary behavior. It was more about trying to demonstrate how individual choice potentially has a negative impact on others - and the belief that my choice/right to engage in [X] is more important than your choice/right to not experience negative impacts of [X].

Additionally, you're absolutely correct we benefited from reducing smoking. We'd also benefit in same direct and indirect ways by reducing transmission in the short and long term for Covid-19 (financially, socially, etc...)

Early on we used the information we had to drive our decisions (masking, closures, restrictions, etc...) - broadly it was very binary. I think that's a function of how we're trained and what we're typically doing in smaller-scale outbreaks, i.e. epidemics. For example, someone comes down with a water-borne disease and we determine that they were exposed from a public swimming pool? We order that pool closed and they must mitigate. A restaurant causes a food-borne disease outbreak and dozens (or hundreds) of people are made ill? We order that restaurant closed and they must mitigate. We are tasked with stopping outbreaks from spreading; it's part of our job and I'd assume other states have it codified in state statutes as is done in my own state.

So the idea that we're standing idly by while a really big outbreak (i.e. pandemic) is continuing to rage 2+ years later is causing me and many in my profession significant stress. To be clear, I'm *not* saying we should be shutting down everything (like a pool or a restaurant) to address this in 2022. Instead, I'm saying we should be using any number of other options (like masking) to help control the outbreak. We should be pushing for policies that support people that need to take off work due to illness. We should be pushing for businesses and schools to gain access to air filtration technology to help protect workers and students.

Instead we're (collectively) being told, "Eh, there's a vaccine. People are going to die, and that's unfortunate." We were repeatedly assured all people wanted was "of ramps" where masking and restrictions could end. We did that - we provided numbers and guidelines. And then magically as numbers started to go back into ranges that we said should require mitigations, America (politicians, elected officials, administrators, etc...) shrugged. Cases are currently rising in my own state and the numbers are suggesting spread (once again). But not a single thing is being done to stop what we know is happening because schools are back in session. This is hell; it's the same 8-12 week cycle over and over all because it's only going to really affect some people?
Last edited by Smoove_B on Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Zaxxon wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:02 pm Except in this scenario 95% of the workers are also chain-smoking.
True - and it was a big argument at the time against trying to stop smoking in bars and restaurants too ("most of the staff are smokers, what do they care?"). But here is a perfect example of where public health advocated for those that had no choice but to be exposed (workers and patrons) - and everyone ultimately benefited from the decision.

For what it's worth, I don't think we could pass similar legislation in 2022 and I'm half expecting it to be rolled back - for freedom.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Interestingly enough, people are starting to realize (and publicize) that not all industries are "back to normal" and "living free"

Think masking is for idiots?

This thread is for you.

In what industry are people considered to be THE assets?

Doctors. Lol. Wrong.
Bankers? Ha!
Teachers? Bwahaha!

Actors.
If you go through the thread (sorry) there are tweets and comments from people in the entertainment industry that indicate what they're doing to mitigate risk and to keep everyone working. The reasons should be obvious, but their methods and philosophy isn't special to industry. The difference is you're viewed as completely replaceable by your employer. Actors (and staff) are not.

Imaging seeing this in schools?



You can't because watching the latest season of your favorite show is more important than trying to keep kids and teachers safe.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Well they are mostly irreplaceable. Production can shut down if even one actor gets sick.

Doesn't happen in hospitals, banks, or schools. Home Depot? Kroger? Yeah, right.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Not sure if it's making the news outside of the NYC metro area, but there are public meetings ongoing to urge the MTA to resume masking. Case and point (and related to the discussion today):


If you're not wearing a mask on public transit so you can be marginally more comfy, remember that means someone else has to go to extremes that you would find untenable just to stay safe.
Thank you to the woman who spoke about her experience as someone with cancer walking 3-4 miles each way to get cancer treatment because taking the trains was not safe as they ended the mask mandate! @MTA must reinstate the mask mandate! #MaskTransit #MandateMasksNY
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Educate me about current thoughts on mask effectiveness. In that last example, is the effectively masked cancer patient not protected on a train of unmasked (bandits)?
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:29 pm Educate me about current thoughts on mask effectiveness. In that last example, is the effectively masked cancer patient not protected on a train of unmasked (bandits)?
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Ooh, great, thanks, I love graphics.

I’ve seen (and recently bought after my wife and eldest tested positive) what seem to be new versions of N95 masks - it almost looks like two pieces of fabric have been placed on top of the other, one vertically the other horizontally.

Not even sure what those are called, but I assume they are some better version of what was available when the pandemic first broke out (which I guess was N95 and the ugly duck billed ones)
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