The 1/6ers don't have the stomach for any real resistance so they won't bother. It's going to be a non-event.Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:55 pmThe bigger factor, I think, is that the people making the decisions won't be telling them to stand down and let the bad guys go on in. If they start breaking down barricades and climbing walls like last time, they're in for the kind of response they'd get any time other than 1/6.YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:51 pm Weren't we all afraid that they were going to try something at the inauguration? I'm not sure, sans Trump, they have the organization to produce another 1/6 scale event, particularly in the face of security that is expecting them.
Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
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- LawBeefaroni
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
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- Pyperkub
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
Trump's DHS aiding and abetting?
Failure to prepare is preparing to fail.A few months before rioters stormed the US Capitol, the Department of Homeland Security restricted the flow of open-source intelligence reports about "election-related threats" to law enforcement, citing First Amendment concerns, according to documents reviewed by CNN.
The revelations not only add to a growing concerns about intelligence gathering, but they also raise questions about a key staffer on the committee investigating the insurrection and his previous role in determining how threat information that came from public sources, was shared with law enforcement prior to the Capitol attack.
Joseph Maher, who changed the protocols around disseminating open-source information as head of DHS' intelligence arm, is now on the staff of the House Select Committee on January 6.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
That is f-ing terrifying, but no one cares anymore....which is more terrifying.
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- Smoove_B
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
It better news, it would seem a pattern is developing - a few of the cases I've seen lately that are making news seem to involve plea deals with cooperation. I need to believe this means someone ultimately is going to get hammered.
But then this:STANDBY: Another high-level plea agreement is imminent in Jan 6 prosecution. Accused OathKeeper conspirator nicknamed "Turmoil" (Jason Dolan) is expected to plead guilty in minute. It'll be guilty plea to two counts:Conspiracy [and] Obstruction of Official Proceeding. Dolan agrees to cooperate with the feds, testify before a grand jury **Yet another accused OathKeeper who'll be working with the Justice Dept ** Sentencing guidelines (estimated) Roughly 5 to 6 years in prison Per judge. Dolan is accused of being part of the military stack that breached the Capitol on Jan 6. Prosecutors allege Dolan "maneuvered" his way to front of the mob and pulled on arm of Capitol Police officer who was part of a police line that was trying to hold the crowd at bay.
Released? F that noise.No sentencing date scheduled, as Dolan cooperates. A status update with court is likely before Christmas
Dolan remains released, under court restrictions
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
I agree 100%. We're getting leaks in the NY times boosting thuggish, corrupt investigations and GOP leaders and Trump pushing the big lie as the official literal battle cry of the sedition. It is pretty depressing to watch the country just dying out without much of a fight.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
Its such an embarrassment for America that they are having this gathering in DC in support of traitors and criminals. Even worse is they are allowing it.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
They have the same rights to assemble and speak as you and I do, as long as they don't color outside the lines. NPR says they got 400-450 people, of an expected 700. They were most likely outnumbered by counterprotesters and cops, and I'm sure the FBI thanks them for adding their faces to its database.
I agree that they're a national embarrassment.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
I thought you had to apply for permissions for these things and that they weren't guaranteed.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
Depends on your face color.
Jaymann
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Black Lives Matter
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
Washingtonian
They actually got a permit for this?
Yep. The US Capitol Police won’t release the permit or answer any questions about it, but it has said it’s planning for the rally, which is scheduled to take place in Union Square, in front of the Capitol’s reflecting pool.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
Denying a permit based on not liking their ideas is not something I want to see happen.
If there was a solid case for denying it due to it being a genuine hazard, that would be a different matter. But at the same time, denying it wouldn't have stopped it, and would have forced the authorities' hand in how they handled it. Allowing it may have been a safer, saner option than denying it.
Stratergy.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
During COVID-19, it is a genuine hazard.Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:18 pmDenying a permit based on not liking their ideas is not something I want to see happen.
If there was a solid case for denying it due to it being a genuine hazard, that would be a different matter. But at the same time, denying it wouldn't have stopped it, and would have forced the authorities' hand in how they handled it. Allowing it may have been a safer, saner option than denying it.
Stratergy.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
Only a fair point if they're using the same reasoning to deny all other permits. If they're just looking for an excuse to deny this particular group, though, I'd have a problem with it.Victoria Raverna wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:16 amDuring COVID-19, it is a genuine hazard.Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:18 pmDenying a permit based on not liking their ideas is not something I want to see happen.
If there was a solid case for denying it due to it being a genuine hazard, that would be a different matter. But at the same time, denying it wouldn't have stopped it, and would have forced the authorities' hand in how they handled it. Allowing it may have been a safer, saner option than denying it.
Stratergy.
To be clear, I despise these people, and I want them gone. I don't want them to show up on the news anymore. I don't want others to hear their message. But it should be either through prosecution of actual crimes, or through social consequences, not through the government quashing dissent.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
Leaning towards releasing? It's a no-fucking-brainer. If they don't do it, I'll edit this and move it to the Imperial Presidency thread where it might belong.
- Smoove_B
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
Well, we certainly don't want to be accused of violating norms to expose a coup.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
The real wtf moment for me is if/when a court takes up a lawsuit by Trump and orders a delay of the disclosure.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
And here we go - I expect 0 of these people to appear anytime soon. Well maybe Bannon - he'd probably enjoy doing the bond villain thing.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
In case you're wondering how serious this all is
Court has given Jan 6 defendant from New York City-area permission to attend NFL game on Oct. 10 (PIttsburgh-Denver)
Defendant does not seek to attend Jets game
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
Essentially we are seeing two tiers here. One is the low-level people who only stormed the capital but didn't use violence. This guy probably falls in there. Those defendants are getting a lot of leeway and the prosecutors seem to be just trying to process them through a system undersized for this purpose. Mechanically speaking, the defendant is making the request, no one really opposes it, and the judge is nodding at it since it really won't impact the case. It makes sense when you recognize how little bandwidth these judges have and competing priorities.
The more serious charges such as the conspiracy and cases involving violence are going to take quite a long time and they are holding people in detention in many of those cases. I don't know if this stuff is good or bad. I look at it from a 50,000 foot view where it appears the courts and DOJ aren't really doing a good job of dealing with something of this magnitude or importance. And not all their own fault. The courts in particular are understaffed. It feels insufficient at the same time it feels like we're unable to truly reckon with the implications that our system can't adequately protect itself or us from these bad actors. I can't help but feel at some point that gap is going to be exploited.
The more serious charges such as the conspiracy and cases involving violence are going to take quite a long time and they are holding people in detention in many of those cases. I don't know if this stuff is good or bad. I look at it from a 50,000 foot view where it appears the courts and DOJ aren't really doing a good job of dealing with something of this magnitude or importance. And not all their own fault. The courts in particular are understaffed. It feels insufficient at the same time it feels like we're unable to truly reckon with the implications that our system can't adequately protect itself or us from these bad actors. I can't help but feel at some point that gap is going to be exploited.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
Sure, I get all that. I think it's just the appearance element that really grinds on me - the idea that this individual in some way was involved with 1/6 and seemingly ordered to remain at home and/or only to go to work until trial. However, they're being granted the ability to attend an NFL game because....why? Maybe this happens all the time with people similarly ordered to remain at home until trial and we just don't hear about it? I don't know. I just feel like maybe being accused of storming the capitol should result in some inconvenience until that's all sorted out in the courts?
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
Oh I totally get it. But most of the time they are being ordered to stay in their state. So the mechanism as I understand it is that they are getting permission to travel interstate. The idea to keep them boxed is not to punish them but just make sure we can find them for the trial.
From what I understand this is routine-ish but people have more eyes on it and there are so many of them to watch.However, they're being granted the ability to attend an NFL game because....why? Maybe this happens all the time with people similarly ordered to remain at home until trial and we just don't hear about it?
That's the crux of things though. They are innocent right now and they have a right to a speedy trial since they are being restricted. That's tough to delivery because there are 600 of these cases. So the trade off I suspect is the judge is saying we need to adjudicate the ones that are more serious because they are incarcerated and deserve adjudication. Then this tier of lesser charges sits in a backlog and they don't want that to be overly punitive since they are technically innocent right now. It's very non-ideal but this is the smallest part of the injustice of the reaction to 1/6. These schlubs going to NFL games? Aggravating but what is really upsetting is all the politicians who sent them on a march into the Capitol getting away scot-free.I just feel like maybe being accused of storming the capitol should result in some inconvenience until that's all sorted out in the courts?
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
All that is reasonable.
I think my response to this is frustration because from where I sit, there seems to be a very lackadaisical attitude over what happened - at all levels. That might not actually be the case, but the hand-slaps that have been given out so far aren't making me feel great. And while I understand that justice might take time, you'd kinda think that issues surrounding the core of how our democratic process works would be given more resources and priority to adjudicate. I have been left with the feeling that there isn't any urgency whatsoever to hammer all this out. So instead, enjoy your football.
I think my response to this is frustration because from where I sit, there seems to be a very lackadaisical attitude over what happened - at all levels. That might not actually be the case, but the hand-slaps that have been given out so far aren't making me feel great. And while I understand that justice might take time, you'd kinda think that issues surrounding the core of how our democratic process works would be given more resources and priority to adjudicate. I have been left with the feeling that there isn't any urgency whatsoever to hammer all this out. So instead, enjoy your football.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
The closer any prominent convictions happen to next November, the better.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
It certainly makes the next attempt at storming the capital a more appealing endeavor. Lessons learned, too. A few more cell phones off and there'd be far fewer convictions to worry about.Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:50 pmI think my response to this is frustration because from where I sit, there seems to be a very lackadaisical attitude over what happened - at all levels. That might not actually be the case, but the hand-slaps that have been given out so far aren't making me feel great.
Black Lives Matter
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
I'm not sure you understand the scale of what they are attempting. They are thinking there will be 800 arrests, right? There is simply no way the court could try that many cases. The federal courts are set up to do plea deals for 95% of cases. If these people all demand their day in court, the system will grind to a halt. Extra resources are being sent from surrounding districts, but it's still not enough to try more than 5% of these cases. And that would be if that district did nothing but these cases - something it is not doing.Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:50 pm All that is reasonable.
I think my response to this is frustration because from where I sit, there seems to be a very lackadaisical attitude over what happened - at all levels. That might not actually be the case, but the hand-slaps that have been given out so far aren't making me feel great. And while I understand that justice might take time, you'd kinda think that issues surrounding the core of how our democratic process works would be given more resources and priority to adjudicate. I have been left with the feeling that there isn't any urgency whatsoever to hammer all this out. So instead, enjoy your football.
On a good day the wheels of justice grind slowly. The fact that they are already getting plea deals in some of the minor cases actually shows how fast they are moving. The more complicated, serious cases could take years if they go to trial.
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- Carpet_pissr
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
I, for one, was not aware of that (specifically, that the courts can’t handle the volume).
Thanks for explaining.
Thanks for explaining.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
No, I don't have a full appreciation for the scale, but it kinda feels like maybe this should be an all hands on deck crisis to me just based on what's at stake here. Someone might cynically believing overwhelming the federal court system was part of the plan, no?stessier wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:19 pm I'm not sure you understand the scale of what they are attempting. They are thinking there will be 800 arrests, right? There is simply no way the court could try that many cases. The federal courts are set up to do plea deals for 95% of cases. If these people all demand their day in court, the system will grind to a halt. Extra resources are being sent from surrounding districts, but it's still not enough to try more than 5% of these cases. And that would be if that district did nothing but these cases - something it is not doing.
I understand that. I'm concerned it's going to happen again as I'm guessing the next group of whackjobs aren't waiting to see how it turns out for their buddies that were caught the first time.On a good day the wheels of justice grind slowly. The fact that they are already getting plea deals in some of the minor cases actually shows how fast they are moving. The more complicated, serious cases could take years if they go to trial.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
Recommended sentence? 4 months. Nah, let's do 45 days.
You'll excuse me if I find 45 days insulting. You'd likely spend more time in jail for a vehicular hit and run.Like most of the insurrectionists who have pleaded guilty so far, Jancart and Rau aren’t accused of engaging in any violence or destruction at the Capitol or of conspiring to stop Congress from certifying President Joe Biden’s electoral victory. Defense attorneys compared their actions to those of other Capitol riot defendants who avoided prison sentences after pleading guilty to non-violent misdemeanors.
But prosecutors cited several factors in arguing that prison, not probation, was the appropriate sentence for both men — and will be in many other cases.
They said Jancart, an Air Force veteran, prepared for violence on Jan. 6 by bringing a gas mask and two-way radios to Washington. Rau, a steel mill worker, brought a medical kit and Kevlar-lined gloves.
They said Jancart and Rau spent 40 minutes inside the Capitol, reaching House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s conference room. Jancart celebrated the violence on social media and didn’t show any remorse when the FBI arrested him, according to prosecutors.
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- Isgrimnur
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
If you’re a white kid who wants to roll coal and accidentally runs over a bunch of bicyclists, you get to go home from the police station.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
I mean we're a very serious country. Say you want to blow out Pelosi's brains while still in the roiling Capitol? Misdemeanor illegal protest. The same charge you get for sit-ins in the Capitol. It's a joke.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
Freedom of speech is a hell of a drug.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
CREW has a fantastic write up after reviewing 7 hours of Park Police radio transmissions.
Full story here
Full story here
Newly obtained recordings show US Park Police overwhelmed on January 6, hours before rioters attacked the Capitol, with insufficient resources and action taken to control the fray across the city.
Seven hours of radio recordings from Park Police, obtained and reviewed by CREW, reveal a law enforcement agency inundated with risks before then-President Trump even gave his fateful speech, with thousands of unattended vehicles and bags, mobs of protestors at the Lincoln Memorial and Washington Monument and armed individuals.
The recordings also make plain the difference in response between the hands off approach taken with pro-Trump protestors who would later attack the Capitol and the violent action taken against peaceful protestors for racial justice in Lafayette Square seven months earlier.
As the day went on, the tapes make it abundantly clear that USPP was unprepared for the threat of a riot, lacking manpower, plans and supplies, including radio batteries. They got so overwhelmed during the attack on the Capitol itself that after an officer was attacked with a pipe, USPP could not make the arrest, wishing instead for another agency to step in: “Not making any arrests up here, we cannot afford to lose the personnel up here.”
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
FWIW it is seems more likely than not to me that 1/6 was orchestrated to an extent much deeper than many accept. BLM organized marches and they had troops in the streets, helicopters dusting crowds, police beating reporters, etc. We had an invasion of the Capitol and now we now know the Park Police were being overrun hours before the Oculus speech even began with low level rioting. The mismanaged response perhaps wasn't just incompetence -- it maybe was planned.
Also, the NY Times Editorial Board has a memo out in today's edition pointing out the troubling procedural issues that were attempted. Everyone is screaming fire now and the fire fighters appear to be mostly just hiding now.
Also, the NY Times Editorial Board has a memo out in today's edition pointing out the troubling procedural issues that were attempted. Everyone is screaming fire now and the fire fighters appear to be mostly just hiding now.
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
Is he talking about police?
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Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread
I'm sure he expects a fair amount of police to support this but it isn't what he is talking about. The police have a huge problem with white supremacists and fascist bullies. In any case he is talking to a wide audience about planning because he knows the Democrats are likely to lose in 2022 at the least. And they are preparing for 2024. It is straight up fascist talk. This is Germany early 1930s type rhetoric.
Edit: Some background on what he is talking about there. He had a big meeting yesterday with GOP insiders including several Trump administration officials. He is spearheading groups who have Trump administration experience and will have plans ready to go day one to start tearing down our democracy. He calls it breaking up the administrative state but let's be clear. This is in the open planning for the end of our democracy. And people shrug at it at their own peril.