Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:22 am

It seems more and more like we bounced real hard off the final guardrails protecting democracy and there isn't much of them remaining to stop it from happening again the next time.

But did you hear that the VP purchased a $350 pot and she only uses wired headsets - no Bluetooth?

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:44 am

If I smoked a $350 chunk of weed I wouldn't want to mess around with a wireless connection either.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:33 am

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:22 am It seems more and more like we bounced real hard off the final guardrails protecting democracy and there isn't much of them remaining to stop it from happening again the next time.

But did you hear that the VP purchased a $350 pot and she only uses wired headsets - no Bluetooth?

I think what we are seeing in some democracies around the world (Wiemar Germany historically, Poland, Hungry, USA, etc.) is that much of democracy is based upon the assumption that everyone supports the democratic system, every party is willing to lose, and much of what makes a nation a democracy is based upon tradition. The going assumption doesn't allow for the possibility of bad actors that can infiltrate and then subvert democracy by using the mechanics of democracy and government. Once they get into power, they can use the organs and process of government to rig the future so that they can remain in power. There's still a form of democracy but it is constrained and limited, and ultimately meaningless. And I don't know if there are laws that can prevent this, if you have a legislature (and perhaps courts) and substantial public support that allow this.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:10 am

Trump meeting with Pence one on one in the Oval Office on January 5:

"If these people say you had the power, wouldn't you want to?" Trump asked.

"I wouldn't want any one person to have that authority," Pence said.

"But wouldn't it almost be cool to have that power?" Trump asked.

"No," Pence said.

Pence may have not been the hero we wanted, but for one brief moment, he was the hero we had on January 6.

Kasey Chang · Post by **Kasey Chang** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:32 pm

It's increasingly looking like that Trump had actively encouraged the rioters to create an incident to may give him the pretext to remain in power. The question now is basically... does that rise to the standard of treason and sedition?

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:50 pm

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:32 pm It's increasingly looking like that Trump had actively encouraged the rioters to create an incident to may give him the pretext to remain in power. The question now is basically... does that rise to the standard of treason and sedition?

Aaron Burr was tried for treason for:

What was the nature of the plot that had seen Burr charged with treason? Even today, many details of the scheme remain hazy. “Too many people told too many different stories, and too many people had things to hide,” historian Buckner F. Melton has written. What is known is that Burr worked to raise a small army on the American frontier. He may have hoped to lead an independent campaign against Spanish-held territories in Texas and Mexico, but it’s also possible that he planned to wrest a portion of the newly acquired frontier from the United States. According to some contemporaries, Burr had designs on founding a new western nation with himself as its emperor.

Seems tame by comparison.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 7:53 pm

Kasey Chang wrote: The question now is basically... does that rise to the standard of treason and sedition?

Nothing with Trump rises to the standard of anything. Not to the standard that would punish him, anyway. He's the next "Teflon Don" for a reason.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 9:52 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 7:53 pm
Kasey Chang wrote: The question now is basically... does that rise to the standard of treason and sedition?
Nothing with Trump rises to the standard of anything. Not to the standard that would punish him, anyway. He's the next "Teflon Don" for a reason.

I don't find this as persuasive as I once did. I just assume that it is more that Trump belongs to a class of people who are simply above the law than Trump is individually special in any way. Except former President does have a big advantage that unlocks more of his typical delay tactics. It is like a +1 to his class ability to grind the system to a halt. The system is just too "corrupt" and the institutionalists who run it are too afraid to take people like him on now.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:16 am

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:32 pm It's increasingly looking like that Trump had actively encouraged the rioters to create an incident to may give him the pretext to remain in power. The question now is basically... does that rise to the standard of treason and sedition?

I'm not sure, I haven't seen any smoking gun yet. There obviously were a lot of ideas floating around Trump about ways to subvert the electoral college count - the Eastman memo, the My Pillow guy, Michael Flynn, Giuliani and Powell, the guy that wrote the PowerPoint proposal turned over by Meadows that is all in the news lately, etc. But there were so many loony crazy dangerous ideas floating around him it's hard to tell what actually got to him, and what he took seriously if it did get to him. Of course the idea that any of these people thought the president would even consider their proposals or that they were circulating around him is scandalous and disqualifying in itself but apparently a large proportion of the public believes the election was stolen so this is all ok in their minds, so there we are.

We do know that he sought to have the Justice Department (Jeffrey Clark) act to try and invalidate the vote in certain states, but was thwarted when several other Justice Department leaders threatened to resign. We also know that he apparently took the Eastman memo to heart and sought to have Pence to reject the EC votes of several supposedly "disputed" states. We know he had a one on one meeting with Pence urging him to do so. And people pleading the Fifth is a clear sign that some people believe they acted criminally. But is there anything else that I've missed - there's so much, maybe I've missed something? But are there any other "plots" (for lack of a better word) that he took seriously and sought to implement?

Anyway, did Trump really plan to incite the crowd, hoping that they would delay or interrupt the EC count to his advantage in some way? I don't know. I certainly believe, from all that I read that he was not unhappy at what happened, that he took some sort of perverted satisfaction in it all. It's also clear that he was in no urgent rush to send out a message and try to stop the attack. Did he hope it might happen - did he hope that his speech/presence would be the match to the crowd's gasoline? Maybe. But was it all part and parcel of some sort of master plot? I'm not sure. The fact that organizers of the event were supposedly using burner phones to communicate with the White House is certainly extremely suspicious, if true. But right now I think we are missing the smoking gun that we need to know for sure.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:36 pm

Honestly, I'm fine with a preponderance of evidence against hi being enough to convict. The fact that all those "crazy" ideas were floated around him without the people floating them being laughed at and thrown forcefully from the White House is enough for me. Allowing people of that level of crazy to remain around as associates and confidants is seditious.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:19 pm

Text messages to Mark Meadows urging action by Trump during the attack on the Capitol included Trump, Jr, among many others:

He's got to condemn this ASAP. The capitol police tweet is not enough.

We need an Oval Office address. He has to lead now. It has gone too far. And gotten out of hand.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/13/politics ... index.html

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:24 pm

Yeah, as part of that same reveal (the text messages) were texts from Hannity and Ingraham begging to get Trump to stop what was happening at the Capitol. But when he didn't they went on their own Fox News shows and blamed BLM and Antifa for causing all the problems. Round them all up.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:37 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:24 pm But when he didn't they went on their own Fox News shows and blamed BLM and Antifa for causing all the problems.

You seize power with the Reichstag Fire you have, not the Reichstag Fire you want.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:50 pm

Jimmy Pesto is out.

Bob’s Burgers finally took action against a comic actor that other comedians have been whispering about for months, canning Jay (Jimmy Pesto Sr.) Johnston for his alleged participation in last January’s rally at the U.S. Capitol. The character also allegedly made lousy pizza.

The reported involvement of Johnston, previously beloved in comedy nerd circles for his hilarious work on Mr. Show, Anchorman, The Sarah Silverman Show, and Arrested Development, has been something of an open secret since the FBI posted this picture last March.

Octavious · Post by **Octavious** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:08 pm

Meanwhile Trump will hold a press conference on the anniversary of the event. Totally normal.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:20 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:08 pm Meanwhile Trump will hold a press conference on the anniversary of the event. Totally normal.

I wasn't sure if this was real or not. Google says to talk about election fraud. In a weird way, this is good. We should never forget the horror and rage he put this country through. Every station should show footage of the speeches and violence and parading and dancing their private tent as they tried to prepare to burn our nation to the ground through the proxy of the delusional fanatics they spurred on and continue to feed.

We should never ever ever forget January 6th.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:36 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:08 pm Meanwhile Trump will hold a press conference on the anniversary of the event. Totally normal.

It IS totally normal in this dark timeline.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:59 pm

Kraken wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:50 pm Jimmy Pesto is out.

Bob’s Burgers finally took action against a comic actor that other comedians have been whispering about for months, canning Jay (Jimmy Pesto Sr.) Johnston for his alleged participation in last January’s rally at the U.S. Capitol. The character also allegedly made lousy pizza.

The reported involvement of Johnston, previously beloved in comedy nerd circles for his hilarious work on Mr. Show, Anchorman, The Sarah Silverman Show, and Arrested Development, has been something of an open secret since the FBI posted this picture last March.

Who was he on Arrested Development?

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:06 pm

Officer Taylor

Octavious · Post by **Octavious** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:22 pm

My favorite thing is how all the headlines and articles on Newsmax and OANN refer to him as president. I bet they have never written former president. Jesus I still can't believe that was a thing or a thing that could happen again.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:46 pm

That would depend on context for me. We don't refer to Obama or Bush or Clinton as former president in all situations. I've heard both people insist he be referred to as Former President Trump in situations where it's awkward to refer to him that way and people refer to him as President Trump as if he were synonymous with being "the president" which he is not.

While he single handedly destroyed respect for the office, until him that the respect of being referred to as President like the demands for respect of Doctor has been extended.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:14 pm

Merry Xmas!

Breaking: The Jan. 6 select committee has requested an interview with Republican Jim Jordan — one of Trump's closest congressional allies.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:19 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:22 pm My favorite thing is how all the headlines and articles on Newsmax and OANN refer to him as president. I bet they have never written former president. Jesus I still can't believe that was a thing or a thing that could happen again.

Jimmy Carter is still addressed as "President Carter."

But there's a habit in MAGA media of referring to TFG not as "President Trump" but as "Donald Trump, 45th President of the United States." In context, this often carries a whiff of present-tense assertion that he's still the Real President.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:15 am

As much as I am angry at what happened, there are still real people, not simple caricatures, at the center of this, people who were duped and deluded and have wrecked their lives in service to a lie. Trump led them there, he poured the gasoline, threw the match, lit the fire and left them to burn. He should pay the most, but I doubt he will in any meaningful way. In the meantime lives and families have been destroyed.

TheMix · Post by **TheMix** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:45 am

To quote Grosse Pointe Blank:

How come you never learned that it was wrong? That there are certain things you do not do, you do not do in a civilized society?

I am sad my empathy is gone. But it is. There needs to be accountability for the grief that they caused others. I refuse to recognize them as victims.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:12 pm

TheMix wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:45 am To quote Grosse Pointe Blank:
How come you never learned that it was wrong? That there are certain things you do not do, you do not do in a civilized society?
I am sad my empathy is gone. But it is. There needs to be accountability for the grief that they caused others. I refuse to recognize them as victims.

I don't have much empathy but they are victims. We should be treating them as both victim and aggressor in different capacities. The important thing for me is how grotesque it is how our society constantly let's elite actors get away with obvious crime. It is breaking our society.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 1:56 pm

Octavious wrote:Meanwhile Trump will hold a press conference on the anniversary of the event. Totally normal.

Would be a perfect time to serve him with a committee subpoena!

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 1:58 pm

malchior wrote:
TheMix wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:45 am To quote Grosse Pointe Blank:
How come you never learned that it was wrong? That there are certain things you do not do, you do not do in a civilized society?
I am sad my empathy is gone. But it is. There needs to be accountability for the grief that they caused others. I refuse to recognize them as victims.
I don't have much empathy but they are victims. We should be treating them as both victim and aggressor in different capacities. The important thing for me how grotesque it is how our society constantly let's elite actors get away with obvious crime. It is breaking our society.

Yeah , saw that one of the most recent Proud Boy leaders to plead guilty and cooperate was a high school dropout in 10th grade.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:42 pm

Many of these people were dupes. I thought it was in this article but I can't find it - there was a description of an FBI interrogation of one of the rioters I read somewhere. He was going on about why he came - the election was a fraud, Trump called them, they needed to make their voices heard, they needed to seize the Capitol, etc. After he finished, the FBI agent turned to him and asked, "But what was the end game? If you had seized and held on to the Capitol, what was the next step? Where was this going to end?" The rioter got flustered, started to speak but fumbled around, then the light came on, "Man, I was just stupid, wasn't I?"

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:45 pm

TheMix wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:45 am To quote Grosse Pointe Blank:
How come you never learned that it was wrong? That there are certain things you do not do, you do not do in a civilized society?
I am sad my empathy is gone. But it is. There needs to be accountability for the grief that they caused others. I refuse to recognize them as victims.

For the most part, I don't think they are victims - at least that's not all they are. I think it is possible to be a victim - duped and used - and yet also be responsible for one's actions taken willingly. And I think justice should be swift and strong with respect to the riot. But I can't help but feel sorry for some of them as I see lives and families destroyed by this. Trump used them and then threw them away. He never gave a damn about then, before or after the riot.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:18 am

Grifman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:45 pm For the most part, I don't think they are victims - at least that's not all they are. I think it is possible to be a victim - duped and used - and yet also be responsible for one's actions taken willingly. And I think justice should be swift and strong with respect to the riot. But I can't help but feel sorry for some of them as I see lives and families destroyed by this. Trump used them and then threw them away. He never gave a damn about then, before or after the riot.

This.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Dec 25, 2021 4:17 pm

They've been duped on many many levels, but I don't think "I was tricked into storming the Capitol to halt the transfer of power" holds much water.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:53 pm

<Checks news> Oh look another book where someone withheld vital details about the coup attempt until they try to cash in...wait a second. The author is inside the coup and is essentially admitting it to planning it. Shrug. Cool. Cool. Cool. Crime pays in America.

A former Trump White House official says he and right-wing provocateur Steve Bannon were actually behind the last-ditch coordinated effort by rogue Republicans in Congress to halt certification of the 2020 election results and keep President Donald Trump in power earlier this year, in a plan dubbed the “Green Bay Sweep.”

In his recently published memoir, Peter Navarro, then-President Donald Trump’s trade adviser, details how he stayed in close contact with Bannon as they put the Green Bay Sweep in motion with help from members of Congress loyal to the cause.

But in an interview last week with The Daily Beast, Navarro shed additional light on his role in the operation and their coordination with politicians like Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ) and Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX).

“We spent a lot of time lining up over 100 congressmen, including some senators. It started out perfectly. At 1 p.m., Gosar and Cruz did exactly what was expected of them,” Navarro told The Daily Beast. “It was a perfect plan. And it all predicated on peace and calm on Capitol Hill. We didn’t even need any protestors, because we had over 100 congressmen committed to it.”

That commitment appeared as Congress was certifying the 2020 Electoral College votes reflecting that Joe Biden beat Trump. Sen. Cruz signed off on Gosar’s official objection to counting Arizona’s electoral ballots, an effort that was supported by dozens of other Trump loyalists.

Staffers for Cruz and Gosar did not respond to requests for comment. There’s no public indication whether the Jan. 6 Committee has sought testimony or documents from Sen. Cruz or Rep. Gosar. But the committee has only recently begun to seek evidence from fellow members of Congress who were involved in the general effort to keep Trump in the White House, such as Rep. Jim Jordan (R-OH) and Rep. Scott Perry (R-PA).

This last-minute maneuvering never had any chance of actually decertifying the election results on its own, a point that Navarro quickly acknowledges. But their hope was to run the clock as long as possible to increase public pressure on then-Vice President Mike Pence to send the electoral votes back to six contested states, where Republican-led legislatures could try to overturn the results.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:01 pm

Even OJ is saying that's too much.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:21 pm

Well, there is a distinction here that as I read this Navarro is admitting to coordinating the certification objections among congressional Republicans, but he's not admitting to any role as to the capitol hill invasion (I take that as the point of him specifying that the plan was "predicated on peace and calm on Capitol Hill"). So I don't think that he's admitting to anything illegal here.

Now, I strongly suspect that he knew of more that he's willing to admit about the violence side of things, but it's plausible that that side of things was more Bannon's department.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:38 pm

Right. He is blatantly winking and nodding at the whole thing when he talks about the events of the day. "We had this without the thuggery". He is mostly bragging about how he was one of the fixers behind the attempt to overturn an election nominally within the law.

That he was allied with a guy who talks about revolution and acceleration in the white nationalist context is just an unfortunate oversight.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:49 am

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:16 pm

Are they gonna nail Trump and the idiots in Congress or not?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:27 pm

Daehawk wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:16 pm Are they gonna nail Trump and the idiots in Congress or not?

They'd have to actually have an investigation first.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:47 pm

Daehawk wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:16 pm Are they gonna nail Trump and the idiots in Congress or not?

Of course not. But how about continued tweeted "suggestions" about "fascinating lines of inquiry" that could uncover eye-brow raising scenarios and plans!!
EYE-BROW RAISING!!!! That's bananas!!!

Not trying to diminish "fascinating lines of inquiry" but too much craziness is not good for the ol' ticker.