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Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

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Blackhawk
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Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Blackhawk »

I know this is a long shot, but we have a few keyboard aficionados here. Does anyone know of an affordable wireless ergonomic mechanical keyboard? Those four adjectives - I can find any combination of three, but not all four.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by TheMix »

I did that search too. I'm pretty sure the answer is "no". I ended up skipping the "mechanical" requirement. Though I was also looking for a small footprint one. But I don't remember seeing an affordable one at any size.

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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by hitbyambulance »

'wireless' was unimportant to me, but 'affordable' and 'ergonomic' mechanical is still not cheap.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Blackhawk »

TheMix wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:01 am Though I was also looking for a small footprint one.
I'd prefer that, too, but I didn't want to push my luck.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Daehawk »

No idea. Just dont buy Razer. Maybe Logitech has something.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Pyperkub »

hitbyambulance wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:54 am 'wireless' was unimportant to me, but 'affordable' and 'ergonomic' mechanical is still not cheap.
IMHO, "wireless" is actually a drawback. having a keyboard (or mouse) die on you and being forced to find batteries with a charge is (for me) a non starter.

and yes, if you find a mechanical MS natural keyboard, please post. Until then, meh.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Blackhawk »

This is for my work area, something I can stick out of the way when not in use. I'd rather deal with batteries once every few months than deal with both a cord and a keyboard tray in my way daily. I've already swept my box of assorted toothpicks/stirrers/pipettes onto the floor with the keyboard cord once.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Pyperkub »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:32 pm This is for my work area, something I can stick out of the way when not in use. I'd rather deal with batteries once every few months than deal with both a cord and a keyboard tray in my way daily. I've already swept my box of assorted toothpicks/stirrers/pipettes onto the floor with the keyboard cord once.
Having dealt with far too many employees begging for batteries which the department didn't purchase for them when I also wore a desktop support hat...
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by TheMix »

Battery life on my Microsoft one is well over 6 months. And I use it daily for work.

But it's not mechanical.

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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Blackhawk »

And we have a pile of good rechargeables. They're cheap these days, and good ones hold their charge for a long, long time while sitting in a box. When they get charged they go into the 'charged' box. When you swap out a battery, they go in the 'dead' box. Then, every now and then I just toss all the dead in the charger and bump them up to the 'charged' box. In fact, every few months I tend to do a tour around the house swapping out batteries just to keep everything running.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by hitbyambulance »

speaking as a mechanical keyboard supremacist... i actually find the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic to be just fine, even though it's not mechanical. it feels all right to type on, and it meets the rest of your requirements. totally worth trying out:


https://www.walmart.com/ip/Microsoft-Sc ... t/31390903
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Kasey Chang »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:14 am I know this is a long shot, but we have a few keyboard aficionados here. Does anyone know of an affordable wireless ergonomic mechanical keyboard? Those four adjectives - I can find any combination of three, but not all four.
Pretty sure it doesn't exist. Ergonomic AND mechanical? You're pretty much down to like 2-3 choices, ErgoDox (and variants), or Kinesis Freestyle, which is really just split, not ergonomic. It does have a BT version. There's also the Mistel Barocco which is smaller and also has a BT version.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Blackhawk »

I really liked the look of the Kinesis, but the price - that I didn't like as much.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Kasey Chang »

There used to be Unikeyboard Diverge 4, another split ergo, but I think they went out of business. Domain name was never renewed , and FB page had not been updated since like 2019
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by infinitelurker »

I would love it if Microsoft put out a mechanical ergonomic.

I used Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 keyboards for years and years, until the replacement ones seemed to go a bit downhill in key travel feel.

I moved to the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic for awhile when it was released, and was happy with the feel of it. However, with my software development use, I wanted larger function keys and an attached 10-key.

So, I moved to the Surface Ergonomic Keyboard when it came out and love it. The only thing I wish it would add would be the ability to connect to multiple devices and switch between them with a button press, like the Microsoft Bluetooth Ergonomic Mouse can do (which looks recently refreshed and now takes AAA batteries vs a built in rechargable).

A less expensive option and somewhat-replacement for the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 is the newer Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard. I have one of these as well, and the key feel is better than the 4000 replacements I had over the years, but I prefer the Surface line key travel.

Re-reading the above, it looks like I go through too many keyboards. :D
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Kasey Chang »

Pretty sure the cheapest option around is the Bluetooth version of Mistel Barrocco, which is basically a split-60%. Wireless, "ergo", mechanical, and at under $200 (as low as $150) cheapest option of them all. Any cheaper and it won't be mechanical (like Gold Touch)
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by hitbyambulance »

infinitelurker wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:50 pm
I moved to the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic for awhile when it was released, and was happy with the feel of it. However, with my software development use, I wanted larger function keys and an attached 10-key.
i'll push this one again as probably the ideal candidate for Blackhawk's use case - no, it's not mechanical, but i think it makes up for that with the other requested attributes, and the key travel feeling of this keyboard is all right
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Post by Blackhawk »

And it is probably where I will end up. It's sad that you can get a decent wireless mechanical traditional keyboard for a reasonable price (under $50), but ergonomics seem to start at $150.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Kasey Chang »

Ergo is a much more limited market though. Kinesis used to be 300+
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Post by Kasey Chang »

FWIW, Keyboard.io 100 is on Kickstarter. It's 200+, but it's a very nice ergo split keyboard.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Blackhawk »

Blackhawk wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:10 am Shameful admission: I'm using a Razer keyboard right now. Yep. I bought a Razer product.

[snip

I researched TKL keyboards (Tenkeyless, ie,no numpad) that had the features I wanted, and the only one that fit my specifications and was within my budget was the Razer BlackWidow TE Chroma v2 TKL. I hesitated a long, long time because it was Razer, but there was nothing else and it had been a lot of years (7 or 8) since my run-in with Razer, so I took a chance. I gave my giant Corsair keyboard to my son (which was an upgrade for him.)

I feel dirty, and do not like the Razer software (it's pushy), nor do I trust the company, but in the year I've had it I haven't had any problems.
And five months later, it's dying.

I should have listened to myself and steered away from Razer.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Isgrimnur »

I'm trying to convince myself one way or another on the Steelseries Apex Pro
Each key can be adjusted to meet your preferred sensitivity level, whether it’s for gaming, work, or anything else.
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Post by hitbyambulance »

Blackhawk wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:56 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:10 am Shameful admission: I'm using a Razer keyboard right now. Yep. I bought a Razer product.

[snip

I researched TKL keyboards (Tenkeyless, ie,no numpad) that had the features I wanted, and the only one that fit my specifications and was within my budget was the Razer BlackWidow TE Chroma v2 TKL. I hesitated a long, long time because it was Razer, but there was nothing else and it had been a lot of years (7 or 8) since my run-in with Razer, so I took a chance. I gave my giant Corsair keyboard to my son (which was an upgrade for him.)

I feel dirty, and do not like the Razer software (it's pushy), nor do I trust the company, but in the year I've had it I haven't had any problems.
And five months later, it's dying.

I should have listened to myself and steered away from Razer.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Blackhawk »

Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:59 pm I'm trying to convince myself one way or another on the Steelseries Apex Pro
I had just seen those, and they have some great reviews. Plus, they have a tenkeyless version (which is a must for me.) Unfortunately they're way out of my range. I'm thinking I'll end up with a Logitech or HyperX, provided I can fffind (there goes that Razer 'F' key...) a TKL non-clicky version.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

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Blackhawk wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:05 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:59 pm I'm trying to convince myself one way or another on the Steelseries Apex Pro
I had just seen those, and they have some great reviews. Plus, they have a tenkeyless version (which is a must for me.) Unfortunately they're way out of my range. I'm thinking I'll end up with a Logitech or HyperX, provided I can fffind (there goes that Razer 'F' key...) a TKL non-clicky version.
The HyperX Alloy Origins TKL or 60% with linear HyperX Red Switches seems like a decent option that may fit the bill. Here's how they describe HyperX Red Switches:
hyperxgaming.com wrote:HyperX Red key switches are linear-style switches. Their name derives from the fact that when you press down their travel path is just a line. They don’t have that “bump” other switch types use to provide tactile feedback. Because linear switches don’t have to reset past a bump to detect a repeat press, you’ll enjoy the edge in speed if you’re playing something that requires double or triple-taps. The smoother movement of linear switches also makes these switches quieter than tactile and clicky switches.

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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by hitbyambulance »

my Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro turned 20 this year. i disassemble it and put it in the dishwasher every few years, always works perfectly. i did crack the casing with my chair arm - next time i disassemble it, i will glue that. i don't understand people that have to replace their keyboards so often (other than it being garbage straight from the factory - the first Microsoft Sculpt i got from work had some repeating key issue that warranted replacing not even a year into its lifespan)
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Post by Victoria Raverna »

Had bad experienced with my first mechanical gaming keyboard.

Some keystrokes (number row at the top of keyboard) have trouble registering in less than a year. First noticing it because I keep failing to enter numeric codes. If it doesn't work, another click on the key sometime work. So about 50% chance of it registering.

Then my wife destroyed the keyboard by spilling soup on it. Not much but enough to make random keystrokes registering. After drying it, mostly back to normal but I decided to get another keyboard.

So now I'm back on a membrane keyboard. I got steelseries apex 3 which is membrane and supposed to be spill resistance. Can't feel the different between this and the mechanical one. I guess I don't need mechanical keyboard.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

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hitbyambulance wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:37 am my Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro turned 20 this year. i disassemble it and put it in the dishwasher every few years, always works perfectly. i did crack the casing with my chair arm - next time i disassemble it, i will glue that. i don't understand people that have to replace their keyboards so often (other than it being garbage straight from the factory - the first Microsoft Sculpt i got from work had some repeating key issue that warranted replacing not even a year into its lifespan)
My previous keyboard was a Corsair K70 that's still going strong six years later (although it's my son's now.) I only had to replace because I changed how I play in order to improve my aim in shooters (I cranked my mouse sensitivity way down and standardized it across games.) Because of the lower mouse sensitivity I need to make larger movemements. That means a larger mousepad and a smaller keyboard - and my K70 was a yacht. That's why I switched to TKL keyboards (which lack the numpad, giving me another 4-5 inches of mouse space.)
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Blackhawk »

Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:59 pm I'm trying to convince myself one way or another on the Steelseries Apex Pro
Each key can be adjusted to meet your preferred sensitivity level, whether it’s for gaming, work, or anything else.
Price just dropped by $40 since last night...
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Blackhawk »

And FYI, it took some digging, but it looks like the Pro switches are linear, so non-clicky.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Kasey Chang »

Some of the cheapest mechanical keyboards are indeed messy. I have two of the Velocifire TK78 which is a super-narrow TKL with a unique layout, but its quality is a little iffy. One of the switches started to go intermittent (the O key) but it's only $30 so I bought a replacement. That one got a bit flakey for another reason which is why I bought the Epomaker / Skyloong GK96 off Kickstarter. It's switch hotswappable so if a switch goes I can replace it.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Blackhawk »

Blackhawk wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:56 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:10 am Shameful admission: I'm using a Razer keyboard right now. Yep. I bought a Razer product.

[snip

I researched TKL keyboards (Tenkeyless, ie,no numpad) that had the features I wanted, and the only one that fit my specifications and was within my budget was the Razer BlackWidow TE Chroma v2 TKL. I hesitated a long, long time because it was Razer, but there was nothing else and it had been a lot of years (7 or 8) since my run-in with Razer, so I took a chance. I gave my giant Corsair keyboard to my son (which was an upgrade for him.)

I feel dirty, and do not like the Razer software (it's pushy), nor do I trust the company, but in the year I've had it I haven't had any problems.
And five months later, it's dying.

I should have listened to myself and steered away from Razer.
I got a response to my support request from Razer.

They told me to do the basic troubleshooting steps from their website that I had already told them I'd done.

They then asked me to provide them with a video of me holding the actual keyboard up to my monitor and pressing the problem keys with a word processor open so they could see it happen.

In other words, they aren't providing support until I send them video proof that I'm not lying to them about having a problem, essentially accusing me of fraud.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by LawBeefaroni »

I wouldn't say they're accusing you of fraud. They're just trying to weed out anyone not really serious about follow through. Some people won't bother and that's less for them to deal with.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

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There's context. My first (and prior to this, only) experience with Razer was an Imperator (mouse) that I bought back in 2010. It wasn't until later that I found out that the Imperator had several well-known problems. One was that it had faulty switches and would start registering clicks as double clicks. Another was that it would essentially turn itself off every few minutes, requiring that it be unplugged and plugged back in (obviously rendering it unusable in games.) My mouse developed both problems after about a year. I contacted support within the warranty period, mailed them the mouse, and they sent a refurbished replacement.

Which also had the disconnect problem right out of the box. I contacted them again, sent the second mouse back. This time they had run out of refurbished mice and held my RMA up for almost six weeks before sending the replacement. When it arrived, it had another problem, right out of the box. This issue, also well-documented involved the mouse randomly losing tracking and jumping across the screen. By this point I'd been dealing with them for almost three months, had replaced a defective mouse with another defective mouse twice. In three months, I'd had a working mouse for one week. I contacted them again. Again they wanted me to ship the mouse back (at my own expense, again - I'd already spent half the price of a new mouse in shipping.) When I objected they let me send a photo of the mouse with the cord cut, but then told me that the whole process had taken so long that my original mouse's warranty had expired during the replacement process, so I'd be out of luck if anything else happened in the future (remember, I never got a working replacement for the original, which had failed well within the warranty period), and strongly implied that they suspected me of trying to rip them off.

So, four mice in four months, all of them bad, significant expense involved in it, all because they made defective products, and their response was to suggest that I was a fraud.

The fourth mouse worked for a few months before it started going bad, too, so I stuck it in a drawer, preached about how terrible Razer was and refused to touch any of their products. During that time I dealt with support for keyboards, mice, video cards, motherboards, headsets, and software. I had companies like Corsair bend over backwards trying to help me, to make sure that I got what I'd paid for. They went out of their way for their customers. Not one suggested I was a thief. For ten years I wouldn't touch Razer.

Until last year, when their keyboard was the best fit for my needs and budget and I decided that, after a decade, I'd give them a chance. A year later my keyboard develops a problem. The first response I get from Razer is to prove I'm not lying and committing fraud. So yeah, I'm going to make their video. I'm going to send it to them, remind them of the story above, tell them I'm no longer interested in their support, and make my avoidance of Razer permanent. I'll likely also echo this story in a product review, and will continue to do my best to dissuade others from buying Razer products.

/edit - to fix an read error with my personal memory.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

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Requiring video proof is actually an increasingly common tech support tool. I think I've heard of Logitech also doing it. It doesn't mean they're accusing anyone, rather I think it's a way for them to understand the problem. Anyhow, seeing as you're having so many problems with Razer, I think this is the way the universe is trying to tell you Razer is not compatible with you ;)
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Kasey Chang »

Splurge and get a genuine Filco or Varmilo. Or even a Rosewill.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

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Rumpy wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:24 pm Requiring video proof is actually an increasingly common tech support tool. I think I've heard of Logitech also doing it. It doesn't mean they're accusing anyone, rather I think it's a way for them to understand the problem. Anyhow, seeing as you're having so many problems with Razer, I think this is the way the universe is trying to tell you Razer is not compatible with you ;)
Given that the problem has been reported many, many times, they're well aware of the issue, how it works, what causes it, and what the solution is. Now that I know to search for it, dozens of reviews just on Amazon alone mention it, including the top reviews. I didn't order it from Amazon, so I never saw those. I did read and/or watch ten or fifteen reviews of the product before I chose it, though. But I'm finding that that's the problem with hardware reviews - reviewers always work with brand new products right out of the box. They don't get to factor in the components that fall apart a few months later.
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by hitbyambulance »

Rumpy wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:24 pm Anyhow, seeing as you're having so many problems with Razer, I think this is the way the universe is trying to tell you Razer is not compatible with you ;)
I had the exact same problems with a Razer DeathAdder mouse. they really are a garbage company
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Re: Keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

Post by Rumpy »

Yeah, I'd say that's a good point about the reviews. Some site should devise a review system to take another look several months to a year down the road.
hitbyambulance wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:00 am
Rumpy wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:24 pm Anyhow, seeing as you're having so many problems with Razer, I think this is the way the universe is trying to tell you Razer is not compatible with you ;)
I had the exact same problems with a Razer DeathAdder mouse. they really are a garbage company
Oh, no doubt, especially after their mice gain admin rights. I only ever had one Razer keyboard, but that was before they started making their software mandatory. I much prefer Corsair now.
PC:
Intel DH55PJ
Intel i5 660
8GB RAM
Asus ROG 4GB 1050Ti
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