Too early to think about 2022?

[Drazzil]

That's some good cover against the appearance of a partisan witch hunt, which is supposedly Garland's biggest objection.

That right there pretty much sums up the problem with the Democratic party. Who the heck cares if it gives the appearance of a partisan witch hunt? The GOP certainly doesn't care about appearing partisan, and it's worked pretty damn well for them.

It also has the problem that it is bullshit. It looks partisan and weak if he has mountains of evidence and they do nothing. It also gives credence to the sense common amongst many citizens that our institutions are corrupt and the elite are just going to do whatever they want anyway. It isn't hard to draw a line to the idea that many folks think this country isn't worth fighting for.

I was listening to Beau of the 5th column today and he says that according to a survey 18-34 year olds are not proud of their country. These people tend also to vote the least. Beau says they do this because their interests are ignored. I tend to agree with him.

I am not going to list everything here, but I will bet every starry eyed young person who voted for Barack Obama didn't expect him to be in the pockets of citigroup, or govern like Republican lite.

They didn't expect Hillary Clinton to strangle Bernie's campaign in the crib, twice, Trump , turning out in record numbers for Biden, only to have their interests ignored, AGAIN, this time with angry lectures, have ROE repealed while the Democrats sing god bless America...

And why should they? Vote to keep the system just functional enough to protect the interests of the boomer generation that sacrificed them on the altar of tax cuts? To keep it limping along and ignoring them?

I bet the mental arithmetic spoken or unspoken is as follows: Why should I legitimize a country that's fucking me and my interests? I bet if I leave it alone long enough wither it will collapse on its own, or will mutate into something that threatens ALL generations so much that we will all have to come together and kill?

This is the crux of my argument. Why should the 18-34's work within a rigged system to take on a generational fight save the imaginary futures they can't afford to have?

The country is well on the route to collapsing or becoming so odious that EVERYONE regardless of age or wealth level will have to deal with in the short term future... Why vote?

I'd kind of love to have an answer to this, as this is probabally the best sum up of the argument I've been making for years.

[Drazzil]

PS Moore v Harper may make this argument academic. Like slamming a lid down on a pot that's already at a rolling boil. Even the illusion of choice serve(d) past tense, as we all know how the SC will vote, as a pressure release valve. ( I voted for Kang! Don't blame me).

[Octavious]

Obama did a fantastic job with a group of people that didn't want to let him do anything. If a democrat is whining about his performance that's on them. And Bernie is fucking nuts and partially why we are in this mess. Dragged people so far left.

[Drazzil]

Obama did a fantastic job with a group of people that didn't want to let him do anything. If a democrat is whining about his performance that's on them. And Bernie is fucking nuts and partially why we are in this mess. Dragged people so far left.

Both of which answers are really not intellectually honest. Obama left a massive number of mortgage owners behind, presided over an economic recovery that for a large number of people, was entirely unfelt, burned the working class SO badly that they voted for TRUMP in large numbers, foreign policy that increased exponentially what Bush did, and that second part I'm not even gonna address, because it really does more to prove my point then detract from it.

[coopasonic]

I learned a new term today: Accelerationism.

It looks like it is mostly associated with white supremacists who don't believe voting will be enough to create the world they want, but it seems to also pretty accurately describe Drazzil's outlook.

If you believe that your vote and the threat of violence are the only ways you have to exercise power and the voting thing doesn't seem to be effective, you are left with violence.

There are other forms of power that could likely drive change, like mass walkouts/strikes but I think too many people are just ok enough with the status quo not to risk making things worse for themselves.

I honestly believe there are good politicians out there trying to make things better for the working class. I even believe that many democratic politicians think they are working to make things better for the working class but are separated enough the reality we live in that they don't see reality.

I'm not sure what my point is really except maybe to let Drazzil know that I think I at least have a clue where he's coming from. I have no idea how it gets better. It feels like America is doomed. Thanks Citizens United, I guess?

[Little Raven]

These people tend also to vote the least. Beau says they do this because their interests are ignored.

Of course they're ignored. They don't vote. Why would a politician waste political capital on a group that doesn't vote?

If you want politicians to pay attention to you, just demonstrate that you can deliver votes. This is what makes the NRA so powerful - even now, with their finances in ruins and their leadership a laughingstock. Gun owners VOTE, so politicians cannot afford to ignore them. Young people don't, so politicians can and do.

You can try to change this dynamic by having politicians lavish political favors on young people and hope they start voting, but history suggests that's a terrible bet. Or young people could start voting and then demand the political favors from the politicians they put in power. Harder to initiate but much more likely to succeed long term. Power is taken, not given.

Why should the 18-34's work within a rigged system to take on a generational fight save the imaginary futures they can't afford to have?

Because it's the only game in town. Our system has many problems, but it's also the only thing keeping most of us alive. And where there's life, there's hope.

[malchior]

And Bernie is fucking nuts and partially why we are in this mess. Dragged people so far left.

I don't think that's true. His policies unpacked are fairly popular. Americans by and large can't process the following discontinuity in our politics: the majority often favors socialist policies, while dedrying socialism, while also complaining about the impact of neoliberal market forces on them. Bernie isn't the problem. We are.

[Octavious]

Well by nuts I mean going from where we are now to what he wants is a GIGANTIC swing. I know plenty of people bent out of shape by the horror of giving people healthcare. Hell we don't even have sick leave in this country. And he's pimping things wayyyyy beyond that. It's a fools errand and split the party even more.

[malchior]

The opposite argument is possible too. In the sense it has been argued the Democrats nominated someone who was known to have high unfavorable ratings. They picked an establishment centrist in a change election. I have no idea if Sanders could have won but he wouldn't have been able to deliver that change anyway. I usually find this argument to not be that strong. It is like blaming Jill Stein for Trump and then lean on that canard to step on progressives.

It's the argument very serious people use to avoid talking about the vast gap between the electorate policy preferences and what actually happens. The President is clearly important and powerful but it is sort of distraction to focus in that and away from the idea that our democracy might be in trouble because it isn't very democratic outcomes wise.

[Drazzil]

These people tend also to vote the least. Beau says they do this because their interests are ignored.

Of course they're ignored. They don't vote. Why would a politician waste political capital on a group that doesn't vote?

If you want politicians to pay attention to you, just demonstrate that you can deliver votes. This is what makes the NRA so powerful - even now, with their finances in ruins and their leadership a laughingstock. Gun owners VOTE, so politicians cannot afford to ignore them. Young people don't, so politicians can and do.

You can try to change this dynamic by having politicians lavish political favors on young people and hope they start voting, but history suggests that's a terrible bet. Or young people could start voting and then demand the political favors from the politicians they put in power. Harder to initiate but much more likely to succeed long term. Power is taken, not given.

Why should the 18-34's work within a rigged system to take on a generational fight save the imaginary futures they can't afford to have?

Because it's the only game in town. Our system has many problems, but it's also the only thing keeping most of us alive. And where there's life, there's hope.

Young people turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama, then Biden. What did it get them again?

[stessier]

Young people become old people. Old people vote. Perhaps people just have to grow up before they realize how to make a difference.

[Unagi]

Young people turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama, then Biden. What did it get them again?

Obama and Biden

If you wanna know why they may not have gotten what they wanted, there is more to the story (and the government)

[Drazzil]

Here is something that absolutely positively indicates we're fucked...

I've been thinking lately; and if we take a historical view of this, we're facing terrible odds and will *absolutely* have to spend, what they call in the sporting world, a "rebuilding year". We may however be alright.

This is not new. We as a society have shown a fundamental generiousity of spirit as a whole that even today amazes me. Remember that one show where a black man took a challenge to walk across America without spending a dime?

That one guy slept on the floor in a utility closet and offered the host space next to him maybe even his own sleeping bag? Later on the hispanic guy that gave the host the shirt off his back? He made it across America, always had q roof over his head.

I meet people all day long at the dental school. The overwhelming majority of them seem to be kind.

My guess is that .25 seconds after the SHTF in a real life altering way we will come together and start talking, as communities and recognize who the real enemy is. And woebetide the motherfuckers who led us astray. There won't be a place in the world they can hide from we the people.

[Drazzil]

That said our salvation will NOT come from this crop of elected turds.

[Alefroth]

Young people turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama, then Biden. What did it get them again?

That's young people for you. Two tries and done.

[Isgrimnur]

Why don't you stand for election, then?

[Kurth]

I'm not sure what my point is really except maybe to let Drazzil know that I think I at least have a clue where he's coming from.

He's coming from a place he put himself in. That's where Drazzil is coming from.

[Drazzil]

I'm not sure what my point is really except maybe to let Drazzil know that I think I at least have a clue where he's coming from.

He's coming from a place he put himself in. That's where Drazzil is coming from.

[hepcat]

Young people turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama, then Biden. What did it get them again?

Many of us feel that Obama was a really good president. Perfect? Of course not. Expecting perfection is for idiots. But he did a damn fine job, imho.

[Drazzil]

Young people turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama, then Biden. What did it get them again?

Many of us feel that Obama was a really good president. Perfect? Of course not. Expecting perfection is for idiots. But he did a damn fine job, imho.

My guess is that you're over a certain age, work a professional job have money in the bank and or didn't lose a house around the 2008 housing crisis.

[hepcat]

I would hazard a guess that the young people you claim should hate him, are actually his biggest supporters in the national average.

[Octavious]

Wait it's his fault that people pumped up the housing and collapsed the market before he was in office? That's such a Republican way of looking at things. It's like the BS that inflation now was because of Biden's policies. What policies? He's been able to do almost nothing since in office.

[stessier]

It's like the BS that inflation now was because of Biden's policies. What policies? He's been able to do almost nothing since in office.

The last round of COVID stimulus checks was done on his watch and is seen as a significant factor for the current inflation.

[Holman]

Young people turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama, then Biden. What did it get them again?

Many of us feel that Obama was a really good president. Perfect? Of course not. Expecting perfection is for idiots. But he did a damn fine job, imho.

My guess is that you're over a certain age, work a professional job have money in the bank and or didn't lose a house around the 2008 housing crisis.

Obama became president in 2009.

[Octavious]

It's like the BS that inflation now was because of Biden's policies. What policies? He's been able to do almost nothing since in office.

The last round of COVID stimulus checks was done on his watch and is seen as a significant factor for the current inflation.

Agreed, but along with all the other stimulus before it. He really shouldn't have done another stimulus drop. Trump of course said he was going to do the same thing.

[Drazzil]

Wait it's his fault that people pumped up the housing and collapsed the market before he was in office? That's such a Republican way of looking at things. It's like the BS that inflation now was because of Biden's policies. What policies? He's been able to do almost nothing since in office.

No but Bush rewarded them for it and Obama held the course and doubled down.

[Drazzil]

It's like the BS that inflation now was because of Biden's policies. What policies? He's been able to do almost nothing since in office.

The last round of COVID stimulus checks was done on his watch and is seen as a significant factor for the current inflation.

Agreed, but along with all the other stimulus before it. He really shouldn't have done another stimulus drop. Trump of course said he was going to do the same thing.

It wasen't the covid checks it was the two TRILLION Trump dropped on the stonk market, no strings attached that did most of the inflation.

[Kraken]

It's like the BS that inflation now was because of Biden's policies. What policies? He's been able to do almost nothing since in office.

The last round of COVID stimulus checks was done on his watch and is seen as a significant factor for the current inflation.

It's a contributing factor, but maybe not so significant. Inflation is global and driven primarily by energy prices (war in Ukraine), persistent supply chain snarls and labor shortages, corporate profiteering, and a pandemic that won't go away no matter how hard we ignore it. Covid relief spending probably added a few tenths of a percent to the inflation rate, but wasn't the driving force.

[LordMortis]

It's like the BS that inflation now was because of Biden's policies. What policies? He's been able to do almost nothing since in office.

The last round of COVID stimulus checks was done on his watch and is seen as a significant factor for the current inflation.

It's a contributing factor, but maybe not so significant. Inflation is global and driven primarily by energy prices (war in Ukraine), persistent supply chain snarls and labor shortages, corporate profiteering, and a pandemic that won't go away no matter how hard we ignore it. Covid relief spending probably added a few tenths of a percent to the inflation rate, but wasn't the driving force.

There'd be no war in Ukraine if Biden wasn't in office. Putin would have annexed them, being the very smart man he is with blood on everyone's hands. End of story.

[Holman]

It's like the BS that inflation now was because of Biden's policies. What policies? He's been able to do almost nothing since in office.

The last round of COVID stimulus checks was done on his watch and is seen as a significant factor for the current inflation.

It's a contributing factor, but maybe not so significant. Inflation is global and driven primarily by energy prices (war in Ukraine), persistent supply chain snarls and labor shortages, corporate profiteering, and a pandemic that won't go away no matter how hard we ignore it. Covid relief spending probably added a few tenths of a percent to the inflation rate, but wasn't the driving force.

There'd be no war in Ukraine if Biden wasn't in office. Putin would have annexed them, being the very smart man he is with blood on everyone's hands. End of story.

And think of the money NATO could have saved instead of sending weapons to Ukraine! MAGA!!

[Zarathud]

It's like the BS that inflation now was because of Biden's policies. What policies? He's been able to do almost nothing since in office.

The last round of COVID stimulus checks was done on his watch and is seen as a significant factor for the current inflation.

That is a bullshit Republican argument that ignores basic economics. There is pent up demand, limited labor supply and production supply problems because of COVID disruptions, and a war driving up energy costs. The stimulus is nothing compared to those market disruptions that will drive prices up from repeated supply/demand mismatches.

If we truly believed in the market, we would let this inflation play out.

Instead we have employers talking about reducing labor. Which will further reduce supply, and threaten employees clamoring for wake hikes. And preserve profits.

[noxiousdog]

Young people turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama, then Biden. What did it get them again?

The most meaningful healthcare insurance since medicare?

[hepcat]

[Kraken]

All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

[Drazzil]

Young people turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama, then Biden. What did it get them again?

The most meaningful healthcare insurance since medicare?

A gift to the insurance companies that does little to address insurance needs? Yeah. Has anyone been on the market to price plans lately? I have. They're all shit.

[Drazzil]

All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

[hepcat]

Young people turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama, then Biden. What did it get them again?

The most meaningful healthcare insurance since medicare?

A gift to the insurance companies that does little to address insurance needs? Yeah. Has anyone been on the market to price plans lately? I have. They're all shit.

Far better than what it was before the ACA, that’s for damn sure. There’s a reason your party hasn’t been able to kill it. It’s still popular with a majority of Americans.

[Zarathud]

If Bernie’s health care plan was adopted, we’d see Republicans outright dropping abortion coverage from public health care insurance now it’s not Constitutionally protected. They’d have the power over it any time they won in Congress.

But go ahead and complain about Obamacare. It’s not perfect, but it’s an option.

[Drazzil]

Young people turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama, then Biden. What did it get them again?

The most meaningful healthcare insurance since medicare?

A gift to the insurance companies that does little to address insurance needs? Yeah. Has anyone been on the market to price plans lately? I have. They're all shit.

Far better than what it was before the ACA, that’s for damn sure. There’s a reason your party hasn’t been able to kill it. It’s still popular with a majority of Americans.

Not my party. The Republicans want to make people like me more and more invisible until they can snuff me. Oh and I think thats their plan for Obamacare. Blow holes in it till no one cares if it's gone.

[LordMortis]

Young people turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama, then Biden. What did it get them again?

The most meaningful healthcare insurance since medicare?

A gift to the insurance companies that does little to address insurance needs? Yeah. Has anyone been on the market to price plans lately? I have. They're all shit.

About $800 a month for something comparable to what I am getting on COBRA for $650, only I'll be able to get it subsidized by ??? Once my income is low enough. Plans for healthy people can be had for as little as $450 a month for shit coverage that would be basically free after subsidy if you income is low enough.

It's huge for those who need it even if it should be way better than it is. And the GOP is still trying to destroy it leaving a void. First by destroying its defining feature, the requirement to cover pre-existing conditions. Once that is destroyed, the price goes down, but then it's all but useless for anything other than emergency care. Who is going to pay $6000 a year so they can see their PCP once a year and still have a copay, co-insure, and deductible and know that if they find anything persistent, their care is only good until the next plan re-evaluation, and then it's the curb?