Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

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coopasonic
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Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

Post by coopasonic »

Background: I've played Gloomhaven 30+ times and have never played Jaws of the Lion. My sister-in-law wanted to play board games with her family (spouse and 11yo) and bought Catan and found it took too long for their expected attention span. I recommended some stuff and lent them some quick playing stuff (Cardline:Animals, Forbidden Desert, Kingdomino). They enjoyed Forbidden Desert. She asked me about Gloomhaven and I said it made Catan look simple. So she ended up buying Jaws of the Lion and they have been playing a scenario every night. Now she is asking me about Gloomhaven again.

Question: How much difference is there between Jaws of the Lion and Gloomhaven?

I know Jaws uses a scenario book for the maps and Gloomhaven you use tiles to build the map. I also know that Jaws gives a nice intro to the rules instead of throwing you in the deep end.

Once they've finished playing through Jaws, will Gloomhaven be easier to get into? Are the Jaws scenarios much shorter than Gloomhaven? I know the world map is smaller and there are no travel events.
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Re: Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

Post by LordMortis »

I'm having a very hard time seeing Catan being too long and Gloomhaven fitting. OtOH, if long is really an excuse and it's the dynamics they don't like then that's that.

BGG tells me Jaws of Lion is specifically made to be simplified Gloomhaven, so if they are ready to "graduate" to Gloomhaven, more power to them. I probably put in 150 hours with a few people and I don't think we got that far into the Gloomhaven. We never finished. Then there was set up and tear down and re reading the rules and re reading the rules and re reading the rules and re reading the rules.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/291 ... -jaws-lion
Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion is aimed at a more casual audience to get people into the gameplay more quickly. All of the hard-to-organize cardboard map tiles have been removed, and instead players will play on the scenario book itself, which features new artwork unique to each scenario. The last barrier to entry — i.e., learning the game — has also been lowered through a simplified rule set and a five-scenario tutorial that will ease new players into the experience.
if you have 20 mintues...

https://boardgamegeek.com/video/269488/ ... -tom-vasel
Last edited by LordMortis on Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

Post by YellowKing »

Jaws of the Lion was misconstrued as "GH-lite" early on (I know one of my gaming group STILL insists this is the case even though he hasn't played it :grund: ). But in fact, other than it easing you into the rules and character upgrades, it's good old-fashioned Gloomhaven.

To be fair, JotL does eliminate some things from GH like travel events, character retirement, city level, etc. But those are all things that really exist to flesh out GH's lengthy campaign. The actual gameplay of fighting through dungeon scenarios, where you're spending 95% of your time, is almost identical.

There are a couple of very minor rules tweaks in JotL (one is around monster AI movement rules, the other is around whether coins take up a space, I think), but I don't see why those couldn't be used in regular GH. I actually think both rules make the game better, anyway.

The biggest warning I'd have is just how big GH is. It took our gaming group a year to get through it, and that was playing 3-4 hours a week. Is your friend ready for that commitment? If so, then godspeed. :D
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Re: Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

Post by coopasonic »

LordMortis wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:02 pm I'm having a very hard time seeing Catan being too long and Gloomhaven fitting. OtOH, if long is really an excuse and it's the dynamics they don't like then that's that.
That was my though too. Catan takes too long, let's play Gloomhaven makes about zero sense, but that's how things went. They are not experienced board gamers outside of Parker Brothers stuff. I am pretty impressed they managed to pull off Gloomhaven. I guess Jaws really does make it easier to consume.
YellowKing wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:04 pm There are a couple of very minor rules tweaks in JotL (one is around monster AI movement rules, the other is around whether coins take up a space, I think), but I don't see why those couldn't be used in regular GH. I actually think both rules make the game better, anyway.

The biggest warning I'd have is just how big GH is. It took our gaming group a year to get through it, and that was playing 3-4 hours a week. Is your friend ready for that commitment? If so, then godspeed. :D
Thanks, this is helpful. I did tell them about the increased size, both in physical size and in number of scenarios.

Is Jaws more linear? Is there any real branching in the campaign?
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Re: Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

Post by YellowKing »

coopasonic wrote:Is Jaws more linear? Is there any real branching in the campaign?
I'd say they're both about the same in that regard, Gloomhaven just has more branching opportunities due to its length. However, both campaigns are fairly linear in the sense that branching really just dictates whether you play scenario A or scenario B. Ultimately you're going to wind up hitting the same major main quest points no matter what. (I know this because we went back and played every scenario in GH we didn't choose as a stand-alone. Yes, really).
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Re: Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

Post by Malificent »

YellowKing wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:12 am
coopasonic wrote:Is Jaws more linear? Is there any real branching in the campaign?
Ultimately you're going to wind up hitting the same major main quest points no matter what. (I know this because we went back and played every scenario in GH we didn't choose as a stand-alone. Yes, really).
We did the same thing and I agree, Jaws is about the same, given its length.
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Re: Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

Post by El Guapo »

Does it matter whether you play Jaws before or after you play the 'main' Gloomhaven campaign? I ask mainly because Jaws seems to be $40 while the main Gloomhaven box is like $110, so ideally I'd like to buy Jaws, play it, and then if I love it only then buy the main game.
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Re: Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

Post by coopasonic »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:50 pm Does it matter whether you play Jaws before or after you play the 'main' Gloomhaven campaign? I ask mainly because Jaws seems to be $40 while the main Gloomhaven box is like $110, so ideally I'd like to buy Jaws, play it, and then if I love it only then buy the main game.
I think the actual story is independent, but a prequel but more important, Jaws is the better way to learn to play Gloomhaven.
Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion is an experience tailored for beginners with enough new content to please returning fans. If you like the idea of Gloomhaven or Frosthaven but haven't had the chance to try it, you should definitely start with this one.
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Re: Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

Post by YellowKing »

Yes absolutely do Jaws first. It's a great introduction. I wish it had been out before our group dove into Gloomhaven. Would have saved us many weeks of rules mistakes.
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Re: Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

Post by Archinerd »

I also vote, do Jaws.
It's a lot of game for $40.
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Re: Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

Post by Buatha »

Unrelated question, do y'all require characters to move over to Loot? I understand the strategy aspect of using cards to do it, but it seems to slow things down a bit.

We had been playing around with the idea of a house rule to just "pick it up when we're done and distribute it".
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Re: Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

Post by LordMortis »

Buatha wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:50 pm Unrelated question, do y'all require characters to move over to Loot? I understand the strategy aspect of using cards to do it, but it seems to slow things down a bit.

We had been playing around with the idea of a house rule to just "pick it up when we're done and distribute it".
We did not play with distribution and loot was lost if not picked up before the end triggered. I generally disliked that rule when the objective was to totally clear the dungeon but I always figured the game was designed that way so we played it that way. Otherwise, the pressure of when to rest was reduced and decisions had to be made if you were going slow down or separate to pick up loot or to keep moving and leave it behind it also created a co-opetition aspect that I thought was fun (though I always lost, as I never played a looting character and could not warrant slowing down to loot grab).
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Re: Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

Post by Smoove_B »

Right, I think auto-looting changes some of the dynamics of the "semi-coop" nature of game play. Should I help my friend or secure treasure that will likely benefit me?

I think over time auto-looting would also likely make the overall experience easier, both from the gear you're then always getting and/or the money you're making when you sell it.
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Re: Gloomhaven vs Jaws of the Lion - differences/complexity

Post by LordMortis »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:09 pm I think over time auto-looting would also likely make the overall experience easier, both from the gear you're then always getting and/or the money you're making when you sell it.
We failed enough to not make that make a difference the game would eventually rise in difficulty to the level you are playing at. :? More loot may make you rise to a level faster but then you would level and the difficulty would catch up, but I'm thinking instancing. Say you have a deck of 11 cards, without mistakes and playing to reset to your fullest, that's... (carry the one), at best, 29 rounds of play with no burnt cards and no card retrieval bonuses. Looting takes effort, as your deck becomes less and less efficient during each reset. Taking that decision making out of the game makes those 29 decisions much easier.

Greed had killed us in a dungeon cooperatively or competitively more than, let's just say... once. :? :? :? :whistle:
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