Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:49 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:08 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:03 pm What's real world about 27 hours at 31 MPH?
Rush hour on the street formerly known as Lake Shore Drive?

I'm sure it's a great city driver (we're considering as a second car) but I'm talking about this quote:

"real-world use on long cross-country journeys."

Also, 31 MPH during rush hour on FKA LSD? That would be awesome.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:26 pm

I guess Ford is hoping people only read the headline? That said, I have friends who have done long-distance treks using the Tesla charging network but it seemed a bit absurd when I heard it. I could see someone cleverly optimizing it if it became a 100% necessity. Until then I expect we're heading towards a mix. I've seen people guessing it'll be 40-50% BEV. Especially since we're so dependent on long-haul trucking and air cargo.

I do think my next vehicle is going to be a BEV. I haven't done a trip over 200 miles in a *long-time*. Multiple years and I think I'd just rent one if I had to if I went BEV.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:27 pm

The EV Cannonball Run record was set by the Porsche Taycan at 44:25:59. They had a learning curve with the chargers and estimate they could have knocked off around 2 hours if everything worked on the first try.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:52 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:08 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:03 pm What's real world about 27 hours at 31 MPH?
Rush hour on the street formerly known as Lake Shore Drive?

Anywhere in Chicago before Midnight. It takes about four hours to get to Chicago from Detroit with stops. It takes over two hours to get from one side of Chicago to the other once you get there... On the express way.

Formix · Post by **Formix** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:07 am

Anyone else interested in Aptera https://www.aptera.us/? I have to admit, I was 100% in ten years ago with their first vehicle, so when I saw they were coming back, I threw all caution to the wind and reserved one of the new ones. Who knows if they'll meet their delivery dates, but with any luck at all, I'll be driving my shuttlepod around town before this time next year.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:37 am

On Q. GM is asking you not to charge your 2017-2019 Bolt overnight unattended and park outside.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/14/gm-warn ... night.html

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:01 am

Mach-E tries its hand at de-throning Telsa.

Maybe not all the way, but setting new records is a start.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:17 am

Paingod wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:01 am Mach-E tries its hand at de-throning Telsa.

Maybe not all the way, but setting new records is a start.

Meh. Some friends from Denver, years ago:

"Tesla Model 3 travels 606 miles on a single charge in new hypermiling record - Electrek" https://electrek.co/2018/05/27/tesla-mo ... ng-record/

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:58 am

Paingod wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:01 am Mach-E tries its hand at de-throning Telsa.

Maybe not all the way, but setting new records is a start.

As seen here.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:06 am

It would be interesting to see the anti-cannonball run by one of these EVs--go all the way across the country on as little energy as possible.

Interesting for someone else to do, I mean.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:23 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:06 am It would be interesting to see the anti-cannonball run by one of these EVs--go all the way across the country on as little energy as possible.

Interesting for someone else to do, I mean.

If I were retired and had the money to put myself up in hotel after hotel I think that would be an excellent way to experience the country (pre-2020)

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:26 am

Just put it in pet mode.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:33 am

Formix wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:07 am Anyone else interested in Aptera https://www.aptera.us/? I have to admit, I was 100% in ten years ago with their first vehicle, so when I saw they were coming back, I threw all caution to the wind and reserved one of the new ones. Who knows if they'll meet their delivery dates, but with any luck at all, I'll be driving my shuttlepod around town before this time next year.

Drawing less than 100Wh per mile for everyday driving, Aptera can go five times farther than other electric vehicles with the same-sized solar system.

I was under the impression all EVs we are aware of are in the same solar system.

It's interesting, but efficiency isn't really my brand.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:37 am

coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:33 amIt's interesting, but efficiency isn't really my brand.

Another fun one in the micro-vehicle space is Arcimoto.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:49 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:06 am It would be interesting to see the anti-cannonball run by one of these EVs--go all the way across the country on as little energy as possible.

Interesting for someone else to do, I mean.

Can you imagine hitting Kansas or Nebraska and knowing you have to maintain around 25 mph? I'd want to shoot myself.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:52 am

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:49 am
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:06 am It would be interesting to see the anti-cannonball run by one of these EVs--go all the way across the country on as little energy as possible.

Interesting for someone else to do, I mean.
Can you imagine hitting Kansas or Nebraska and knowing you have to maintain around 25 mph? I'd want to shoot myself.

I just went through Nebraska and Iowa twice over the holiday break, and it's exhausting even at 80 mph with the car doing the driving.

geezer · Post by **geezer** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:14 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:51 pm We've had electric vehicle discussions across a plethora of threads for several years now, but we've never had one overarching thread to contain random stuff about EVs in general. That ends... now!

Today's headlines that spurred me to start a general EV thread are:

[*]BMW's shocking-but-not-shocking dropped ball that is the eight years since the i3 came out. It's now dead, and that leaves BMW with zero BEVs on the market again despite geezer having informed us of the i3's neatness years ago. (I also had a chance to test-drive the i3 several years back. While I wound up going with the Leaf instead, the i3 was a cool car.)

Small update! That car was a lease (BMW was practically giving them away for awhile), but when that ended late last year we picked up one of the new Mini SE electrics, and I really really love that little car. It's less practical than the i3, but it drives incredibly well and my wife loves it (she'll only drive MINIs). As with the i3, it's a city car, and here in Austin TX, the next city over is a minimum of 75 miles (San Antonio, with Houston being 160 away) so we're keeping a "road trip" car as well. It will probably take better charging infrastructure before we could go 100% electric (we have a sort of unique use case of Austin to Santa Fe and/or SoCal, and even Tesla stations in the west TX, southern NM area are sparse), but if we were, say east or west coast, I'm enough of a convert that I would do panels, a charging/battery wall, and go all in.

I'd also be wanting this (and yes, definitely in green): https://www.motor1.com/news/492184/pors ... mo-reveal/

Kasey Chang · Post by **Kasey Chang** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:26 pm

The Jag I-pace I drive for work requires a fast CCS charger that goes up to 60 KWh, if I read the specs right. It requires about 2 hours for full-charge. Though it can do 35% to about 90% in about 1 hour.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:36 pm

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:26 pm The Jag I-pace I drive for work requires a fast CCS charger that goes up to 60 KWh, if I read the specs right. It requires about 2 hours for full-charge. Though it can do 35% to about 90% in about 1 hour.

kWh = energy (range, capacity)
kW = power (charging speed, motor power)

The Jag has a 90 kWh battery capable of fast-charging at a peak of up to 100 kW.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:36 pm

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:26 pm The Jag I-pace I drive for work requires a fast CCS charger that goes up to 60 KWh, if I read the specs right. It requires about 2 hours for full-charge. Though it can do 35% to about 90% in about 1 hour.

I think it's more appropriate to say that it can accept up to 60 kW. It'll still charge slower than that. By today's standards, that's pretty slow. The Taycan maxes out around 250. The Mach E is around 150. Charging profiles are important to understand when doing long road trips for determining how long to stay at each charger.

Edit: Ah, I see Zaxxon corrected the speed. Still slow-ish.

Kasey Chang · Post by **Kasey Chang** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:39 pm

The fastest charger I see around town for CCS tops out at 62.5 though. That's the ones company has access to, and that includes dedicated stations or EvGo and Chargepoint stations. I haven't seen 100 or 150 stations.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:48 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:36 pm
Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:26 pm The Jag I-pace I drive for work requires a fast CCS charger that goes up to 60 KWh, if I read the specs right. It requires about 2 hours for full-charge. Though it can do 35% to about 90% in about 1 hour.
I think it's more appropriate to say that it can accept up to 60 kW. It'll still charge slower than that. By today's standards, that's pretty slow. The Taycan maxes out around 250. The Mach E is around 150. Charging profiles are important to understand when doing long road trips for determining how long to stay at each charger.

Edit: Ah, I see Zaxxon corrected the speed. Still slow-ish.

Yeah, 60 kW is very slow for a DC station today (DCFC in the lingo). Older v3 Superchargers top out at 150 kW, new v3 stations deployed for the past 18 months or so are 250 kW and will eventually be 300 kW. Electrify America has some that are 350 kW. My old Leaf could do only 50 kW.

But it's all about the charge curve. For example, using Tesla since I actually know them well from first-hand use--an S or X will peak at 200 kW but will be down to around 100 kW by 60%, declining to ~50 kW by 80% and ~30 kW by 90%. A Model 3/Y will peak at 250 kW and decline less steeply.

When comparing EVs, the peak DC charging amount doesn't tell you much--you need to know what the taper curve looks like, as well as the size of the battery and efficiency (eg miles/kWh) in order to compare in an apples-to-apples fashion of 'for how long do I need to stop, and how many miles will I regain in that time?'

To go back to the X/3 stats I mentioned above, the 3 also goes about 30% farther on the same amount of energy compared to the X. So the real-world stop time of the X is about 40% longer than the 3 (it charges a bit more slowly in raw kWh added/minute, but also requires more kWh to be added to go the same distance to the next stop).

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:50 pm

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:39 pm The fastest charger I see around town for CCS tops out at 62.5 though. That's the ones company has access to, and that includes dedicated stations or EvGo and Chargepoint stations. I haven't seen 100 or 150 stations.

You can go to Plugshare.com and look for them. Choose the CCS plug only (or Tesla only - mixing is confusing) and then set the minimum kW to a desired value. You're around San Fran, right? Looks like Chula Vista, for example, has 200 kW plugs. Electrify America (EA) is only installing 350 kW ones these days. Note that it's possible (probable, even) that not all plugs at a site are the same power.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:54 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:48 pm
stessier wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:36 pm
Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:26 pm The Jag I-pace I drive for work requires a fast CCS charger that goes up to 60 KWh, if I read the specs right. It requires about 2 hours for full-charge. Though it can do 35% to about 90% in about 1 hour.
I think it's more appropriate to say that it can accept up to 60 kW. It'll still charge slower than that. By today's standards, that's pretty slow. The Taycan maxes out around 250. The Mach E is around 150. Charging profiles are important to understand when doing long road trips for determining how long to stay at each charger.

Edit: Ah, I see Zaxxon corrected the speed. Still slow-ish.
Yeah, 60 kW is very slow for a DC station today (DCFC in the lingo). Older v3 Superchargers top out at 150 kW, new v3 stations deployed for the past 18 months or so are 250 kW and will eventually be 300 kW. Electrify America has some that are 350 kW. My old Leaf could do only 50 kW.

But it's all about the charge curve. For example, using Tesla since I actually know them well from first-hand use--an S or X will peak at 200 kW but will be down to around 100 kW by 60%, declining to ~50 kW by 80% and ~30 kW by 90%. A Model 3/Y will peak at 250 kW and decline less steeply.

When comparing EVs, the peak DC charging amount doesn't tell you much--you need to know what the taper curve looks like, as well as the size of the battery and efficiency (eg miles/kWh) in order to compare in an apples-to-apples fashion of 'for how long do I need to stop, and how many miles will I regain in that time?'

Yep, that's how the Taycan got the Cannonball record over the Tesla. It could charge at 250-ish from 0-50% before starting to taper. It was still pulling around 150 in the mid-60%. The Mach E holds 150 to around 40% before beginning to taper. But it hits a wall at 80% dropping to only 15-20 kW. It takes as longer to go from 80->100 than from 0-80%.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:10 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:54 pm Yep, that's how the Taycan got the Cannonball record over the Tesla. It could charge at 250-ish from 0-50% before starting to taper. It was still pulling around 150 in the mid-60%. The Mach E holds 150 to around 40% before beginning to taper. But it hits a wall at 80% dropping to only 15-20 kW. It takes as longer to go from 80->100 than from 0-80%.

Regarding the 0-80 vs 80-100 comment, it's nice now that on most interstates it's no longer the case that you have to stop for every charger, as there were so few. Now there's generally a choice of 2-4, making it easier to drive until a relatively low state of charge and use the quicker portions of the curve.

I'd like to see the new S try the cannonball run, as it's a much more efficient car than the Taycan (~275 Wh/mi vs 400+ for the Taycan) and the new S refresh should hit the full 250 kW and have a better taper than the old. Might compensate for the lower peak #. Either way, that the Taycan did what it did is super-impressive.

It will be interesting to see the long-term battery degradation numbers of all these newer EVs. Tesla has been pretty cautious with their curves in the past, but their speeds were so much better that that was not a problem. They've had very low degradation numbers as a result. Edit - left out the actual thought here: now that other manufacturers are creeping in with similar/slightly-better overall charge speeds, I am sure Tesla will want to boost things.

Here's a pretty solid chart of BEVs and their specs, including battery size, peak charge rate, and rated Wh/mi.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:42 am

The absolute "all over the place" between price, range, and acceleration on these cars blows my mind.

I used to feel like as cost went up, luxury and/or performance went up roughly equally. Looking at this list and checking out some pictures of these cars, EV's feel like these automakers just threw all the cards into the air and have no idea how to compete with each other in the field.

I mean, the nearly $200,000 Taycan Turbo 2 Cross Turismo looks as close as any car I think I've ever seen to Homer Simpson's dream car.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:25 pm

Paingod wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:42 am The absolute "all over the place" between price, range, and acceleration on these cars blows my mind.

"Compliance cars" really mess up the charts. Also performance with EVs is a little different than with ICE cars. It's really easy to have insane acceleration but top speed isn't generally an area of focus esp with so many having only one "gear".

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:56 pm

coopasonic wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:25 pm
Paingod wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:42 am The absolute "all over the place" between price, range, and acceleration on these cars blows my mind.
"Compliance cars" really mess up the charts. Also performance with EVs is a little different than with ICE cars. It's really easy to have insane acceleration but top speed isn't generally an area of focus esp with so many having only one "gear".

It's also difficult to compare just on specs. The various manufacturers are on various points on the spectrum from 'bolt EV components onto a combustion car' to 're-think every component.' One timely example--Munro & Associates have been doing teardowns of various BEVs for awhile now. Today's video compares the HVAC systems from the Mach-E and the Model Y.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:23 pm

Wow. That teardown is really interesting. The Mach-E feels like a maintenance headache right now. I love the low key way they are essentially showing us that I can hang this system in one piece and over here are a million parts. I'd be curious to see an early Tesla vs current Tesla vs. the Mach-E. One of my thoughts is wondering if this reflects process/engineering maturity or just different design philosophies.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:32 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:23 pm Wow. That teardown is really interesting. The Mach-E feels like a maintenance headache right now. I love the low key way they are essentially showing us that I can hang this system in one piece and over here are a million parts. I'd be curious to see an early Tesla vs current Tesla vs. the Mach-E. One of my thoughts is wondering if this reflects process/engineering maturity or just different design philosophies.

I don't doubt for one second the Ford and the traditional automakers all have a hurdle of useless maintenance complexity to overcome when comes to (B)EVs. They've long since locked themselves into this weight/space/cost (and safety) EC level that has made maintenance a perpetual headache since at least the early 80s, getting progressively worse, as we put in more and more stuff. The traditional OEMs are going to have relearn design philosophy, where weight does not start a cycle of complexity that has you doing things like removing a wheel well to get to the air conditioning charge port or having remove a manifold to get to the oil filter, etc...

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:42 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:23 pm One of my thoughts is wondering if this reflects process/engineering maturity or just different design philosophies.

My expectation would be that the video would show the complete opposite (I mean other than the fact Zaxxon posted it). This is Tesla's 5th production vehicle and it has been what,13 years since they sold their first vehicle? I really thought the traditional auto makers would have a huge advantage in design maturity, but guess the differences are too significant. The fact that he says the Ford is the second best they looked at is concerning.

But hey, panel gaps!

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:49 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:23 pmI'd be curious to see an early Tesla vs current Tesla vs. the Mach-E. One of my thoughts is wondering if this reflects process/engineering maturity or just different design philosophies.

I am not Sandy Munro, but just based on my own experience--2017-2018 Model 3 had the 'superbottle' system. This got a lot of press at the time for how compact it was vs traditional approaches. Then Tesla moved to this new 'Octovalve' heat pump system with the Model Y in 2019 and brought it to the 3 in late 2020. This brought further weight reduction and a significant bump to cold-weather vehicle efficiency. Now the refreshed S/X have a similar system.

So I would peg it at different design philosophies for sure (traditional OEMs want to re-use parts from their giant vehicle lineups, while Tesla is largely building from scratch), but also Tesla maturing very quickly.

wonderpug · Post by **wonderpug** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:56 pm

I have to admit, that video moves my personal dial a good bit more toward the Model Y.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:59 pm

wonderpug wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:56 pm I have to admit, that video moves my personal dial a good bit more toward the Model Y.

I really didn't post that as as Tesla shill (though I am, of course, a big fan). It is pretty representative of how these comparisons tend to go once people look deeper than the top-line specs, though.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:03 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:59 pm I really didn't post that as as Tesla shill (though I am, of course...

You could have stopped there.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:11 pm

LordMortis wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:03 pm
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:59 pm I really didn't post that as as Tesla shill (though I am, of course...
You could have stopped there.

Not quite.

wonderpug · Post by **wonderpug** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:11 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:59 pm
wonderpug wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:56 pm I have to admit, that video moves my personal dial a good bit more toward the Model Y.
I really didn't post that as as Tesla shill (though I am, of course, a big fan). It is pretty representative of how these comparisons tend to go once people look deeper than the top-line specs, though.

For me it seemed like a pretty good illustration of the difference between "let's rethink cars in general and build an EV from the ground up" and "how do we turn our ICE car into a cool EV that mostly does what the Model Y does." I still really like the Mach E, but I'm getting won over back to the Model Y.

My opinion is also surely being swayed by the fact that I'm currently visiting a relative that has a Model Y and that I got to play around with the car and autopilot features first hand. (It was so hard to ignore my instincts and not use the brake pedal as I approached a red light!) The parking lot summon also was a lot of fun.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:13 pm

I might be odd, but this setup doesn't really bother me as I've never had that part of a car go bad before. These are very low pressures (like low single digit PSI) and temperatures, so the only real wear would be from the hoses just degrading over time.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:15 pm

wonderpug wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:11 pm My opinion is also surely being swayed by the fact that I'm currently visiting a relative that has a Model Y and that I got to play around with the car and autopilot features first hand. (It was so hard to ignore my instincts and not use the brake pedal as I approached a red light!) The parking lot summon also was a lot of fun.

People still use brake pedals outside of emergency situations?

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:19 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:13 pm I might be odd, but this setup doesn't really bother me as I've never had that part of a car go bad before. These are very low pressures (like low single digit PSI) and temperatures, so the only real wear would be from the hoses just degrading over time.

I think that's a very narrow view. It's more about all that unnecessary weight and complexity as an indicator of the design philosophy. Ford's design philosophy appears to be "Well we have these parts and this will work. Build it!"

Yes, it's a lot to take from that short video but I'm obviously biased and as a bonus no nothing about building cars.