wonderpug wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:11 pmFor me it seemed like a pretty good illustration of the difference between "let's rethink cars in general and build an EV from the ground up" and "how do we turn our ICE car into a cool EV that mostly does what the Model Y does." I still really like the Mach E, but I'm getting won over back to the Model Y.
Wait until you start thinking about what that approach means for the non-vehicle-itself parts of the experience. No more dealerships and no associated incentive for routine maintenance items as a profit vector, fueling as an extension of the manufacturer, connectivity priced in line with it being a benefit to the OEM, as well, rather than a profit vector, etc. Software updates improving all sorts of parts of the car for years after purchase...
I just had my 2-year service done (brake fluid check, cabin air filter and wiper blade replacements), plus a finnicky parking sensor looked at. Happened in my driveway, after a 1-minute through-the-app scheduling process a couple days earlier. Had I not wanted to go out and say hi, I could have done it with zero human interaction and no disruption to my day.
There really isn't a comparable experience elsewhere (for now--Lucid and Rivian may eventually be pretty similar in these regards, but that's yet TBD other than promises of what they plan).
wonderpug wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:11 pm
For me it seemed like a pretty good illustration of the difference between "let's rethink cars in general and build an EV from the ground up" and "how do we turn our ICE car into a cool EV that mostly does what the Model Y does." I still really like the Mach E, but I'm getting won over back to the Model Y.
I don't think it's so much "how do we turn an ICE car into a BEV" so much as it is we're moving teams of people who have spent their careers designing and engineering ICE cars in ICE car ways to both meet the demands what people want and CAFE standards demand. I think they're stuck in the trope of inside the box thinking, whether they want to be there or not. Ford and VW (and presumably the other traditional OEMs) are throwing far too much money and resources at the changes to not be embracing them. Rather than using their traditional automaking experience to build a vision, they might be better served using their experience to build the vision of automaking from someone who has made a a career out of designing and building generators, as example, rather than traditional cars.
I haven't driven a Taycan but did sit in one and have watched several reviews. Looks like a solid entry for Porsche, so it's nice to see it selling as such.
stessier wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:13 pm
I might be odd, but this setup doesn't really bother me as I've never had that part of a car go bad before. These are very low pressures (like low single digit PSI) and temperatures, so the only real wear would be from the hoses just degrading over time.
I think that's a very narrow view. It's more about all that unnecessary weight and complexity as an indicator of the design philosophy. Ford's design philosophy appears to be "Well we have these parts and this will work. Build it!"
Yes, it's a lot to take from that short video but I'm obviously biased and as a bonus no nothing about building cars.
I mean, it's not the most elegant design, but it works and gets the range I want. Could it be more efficient? Obviously yes. But I'm buying something to fill a need, not just the most elegant under the hood solution of filling that need.
wonderpug wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:11 pmFor me it seemed like a pretty good illustration of the difference between "let's rethink cars in general and build an EV from the ground up" and "how do we turn our ICE car into a cool EV that mostly does what the Model Y does." I still really like the Mach E, but I'm getting won over back to the Model Y.
Wait until you start thinking about what that approach means for the non-vehicle-itself parts of the experience. No more dealerships and no associated incentive for routine maintenance items as a profit vector, fueling as an extension of the manufacturer, connectivity priced in line with it being a benefit to the OEM, as well, rather than a profit vector, etc. Software updates improving all sorts of parts of the car for years after purchase...
I just had my 2-year service done (brake fluid check, cabin air filter and wiper blade replacements), plus a finnicky parking sensor looked at. Happened in my driveway, after a 1-minute through-the-app scheduling process a couple days earlier. Had I not wanted to go out and say hi, I could have done it with zero human interaction and no disruption to my day.
There really isn't a comparable experience elsewhere (for now--Lucid and Rivian may eventually be pretty similar in these regards, but that's yet TBD other than promises of what they plan).
The Tesla owner we know has to drive 2 hours to the service center every time they need something done. I've wondered why that service isn't available to them.
stessier wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:13 pm
I might be odd, but this setup doesn't really bother me as I've never had that part of a car go bad before. These are very low pressures (like low single digit PSI) and temperatures, so the only real wear would be from the hoses just degrading over time.
I think that's a very narrow view. It's more about all that unnecessary weight and complexity as an indicator of the design philosophy. Ford's design philosophy appears to be "Well we have these parts and this will work. Build it!"
Yes, it's a lot to take from that short video but I'm obviously biased and as a bonus no nothing about building cars.
I mean, it's not the most elegant design, but it works and gets the range I want. Could it be more efficient? Obviously yes. But I'm buying something to fill a need, not just the most elegant under the hood solution of filling that need.
Absolutely. But since you mention range, that's another area with a similar result--the Y and Mach-E are similar-classed vehicles. But the Mach-E needs 98 kWh to get near what the Y does with 75. These things are related. Not necessarily for you as the end-consumer (although it clicks for me now why the Mach-E holds a higher charge power level for longer--it's a much bigger battery and both 1) needs that higher rate for longer to charge mileage as quickly, and 2) can handle it longer since charge curves correlate very strongly to battery size), but for the OEM. If Ford is using 30% more cells to get the same range, they need to source those cells at a 30% discount in order for the pack to be as profitable for them.
stessier wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:29 pmThe Tesla owner we know has to drive 2 hours to the service center every time they need something done. I've wondered why that service isn't available to them.
Where are they at? There are definitely areas where it's not available, but within 2 hours of a service center is not typically where I'd expect to see that. My Mom had it available in East Tennessee long before there was a local service center, though she hasn't needed it yet.
coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:33 amIt's interesting, but efficiency isn't really my brand.
Another fun one in the micro-vehicle space is Arcimoto.
The Arcimoto is cool if I lived in SoCal or somewhere where rain is uncommon. I like their solution though. Since we're discussing cooling solutions, I'm really interested to see how this pans out.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE2du6ZGMQo
coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:33 amIt's interesting, but efficiency isn't really my brand.
Another fun one in the micro-vehicle space is Arcimoto.
The Arcimoto is cool if I lived in SoCal or somewhere where rain is uncommon. I like their solution though. Since we're discussing cooling solutions, I'm really interested to see how this pans out.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE2du6ZGMQo
That is cool, if it works well. And similar thought here for Arcimoto. I don't have room for one, but even if I did it'd be a hard sell for me in Colorado, at least at current prices.
In other news. Rivian delays the R1T again, this time from July to September. Totally fine with that, as I'm really hoping Rivian nails this one. I got to see both the R1S and R1T in person just prior to the pandemic and they're both gorgeous.
That all sounds like it's a magic tire with no compromises, so I guess we'll see. It's nice that tire manufacturers are focusing on EV-specific needs, though.
stessier wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:13 pm
I might be odd, but this setup doesn't really bother me as I've never had that part of a car go bad before. These are very low pressures (like low single digit PSI) and temperatures, so the only real wear would be from the hoses just degrading over time.
For me the video didn't matter because of the HVAC system specifically, but just what it said about the design philosophy. The Ford HVAC looks like a house where the drywall guy did his job, then the electric outlet wiring guy said "well crap, I gotta rip out and reinstall a bunch of drywall to get my job done," then after him the internet cabling guy came in and ripped out the same drywall again to do his job. If the other house was otherwise identical but designed in a way to get put together efficiently, for me that adds a lot of points in the latter house's column.
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:34 pm
Where are they at? There are definitely areas where it's not available, but within 2 hours of a service center is not typically where I'd expect to see that. My Mom had it available in East Tennessee long before there was a local service center, though she hasn't needed it yet.
Greenville, SC - have to keep driving to Charlotte, NC for the service (which is better than the other option in Atlanta).
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:34 pm
Where are they at? There are definitely areas where it's not available, but within 2 hours of a service center is not typically where I'd expect to see that. My Mom had it available in East Tennessee long before there was a local service center, though she hasn't needed it yet.
Greenville, SC - have to keep driving to Charlotte, NC for the service (which is better than the other option in Atlanta).
That's frustrating. My Mom is near Knoxville, which just finally got a service center at the end of last month. Prior to that the Knoxville/Pigeon Forge area had mobile available. Maybe one of those mobile techs will now move to Greenville. Or maybe there aren't many owners in Greenville.
I just got an email from Toyota asking me to explore their line of alternative-fuel vehicles, listing the Prius, Prius Prime, and all of their mild hybrids.
Of those, one is a PHEV and qualifies as alternative-fuel with an asterisk. Zero are true alt fuel vehicles. They are so behind...
Then again, this is the same company that advertised the Corolla hybrid as 'self-charging,' so I guess it's par for the course.
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:20 pm
Wait until you start thinking about what that approach means for the non-vehicle-itself parts of the experience. No more dealerships and no associated incentive for routine maintenance items as a profit vector, fueling as an extension of the manufacturer, connectivity priced in line with it being a benefit to the OEM, as well, rather than a profit vector, etc.
“The Volkswagen Group has continued its successful electric offensive in the first half of 2021. The following new BEV models were launched in this period: Volkswagen ID.4, Volkswagen ID.61, ŠKODA Enyaq iV, Audi Q4 e-tron, Audi Q4 Sportback e-tron, Audi e-tron GT2 and Porsche Taycan Cross Turismo. In total, 170,939 BEV models were delivered throughout the world up to the end of June, more than twice as many as in the prior-year period (+165.2 percent). After 59,948 BEV had been delivered to customers in the first quarter (+78.4 percent compared with the previous year), deliveries increased significantly, as planned, in the second quarter to 110,991 units (+259.7 percent compared with the previous year). In the course of the year, the BEV ramp-up will further accelerate thanks to the expanded model range. The Group has also consistently expanded its portfolio of PHEV models. This vehicle category benefits from considerable customer demand, too. In the first half of the year, a total of 171,300 PHEV were delivered, more than three times as many as in the prior-year period (+204.2 percent).”
wonderpug wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:18 pm
I don't get how the company that really pioneered hybrids can turn to being so behind the times on EVs.
Because, IMHO, Toyota doesn't really "believe" in EV. Prius was basically designed for Yuppies who need conspicuous consumption status symbols, and was always meant to be a mild hybrid. For the longest time, there was no way to plug-in a Prius, IIRC. It took third-party mods to add that option. Toyota really has no preference to any solution, IMHO, as their aim is global, and EV is a first-world problem/solution.
My game FAQs | Playing: She Will Punish Them, Sunrider: Mask of Arcadius, The Outer Worlds
After many evenings in the Jag I-Pace, driving for many many hours in the streets of San Francisco, my reaction to it is lukewarm. Granted, mine never had any passengers, and was festooned with some extra hardware installed by an Alphabet company, and some of the driver UI was changed as well, but the majority of the driving feel is still there, and I've even driven it on the freeway.
Cockpit: not sure what's wrong with the cockpit, but I've had a hard time finding a comfortable position. It looks like a jag Grand Tourer, but its wheels suggested more of an SUV stance, and I'm 5'10" or 5'11" depending on who you ask. And I had to raise my feet pretty high to step into the cockpit. Yet the seating position is more reminiscent of a racer than a GT or SUV. Also, for the vehicle's cost, I'm surprised it doesn't automatically retract the wheel and push seat back as you open the door and reset to previous position when you close the door. Instead, the power seats didn't have memory, and the steering wheel is your regular tilt and telescope with manual lock handle. The instrument is all backlit LCD and very pretty, but as I am seeing a modified version I can't tell you what it *should* look like. Switching gear is a matter of mashing one of 4 buttons: D / N / R / P Vehicle also retained brake lockout: if you don't touch the brakes while changing gear the gear button input will be ignored. Rearview mirror looks through a depressingly small rear windscreen, and you are highly reliant on the rearview cam for reverse gear.
Driving feel: plenty of torque, but the worse problem, IMHO, is it slides backwards on an uphill, unless you hold the brakes. Absolutely no "hill assist" at all. The regen braking is also set quite heavily on our setup. I generally let go of the throttle 2-3 car lengths from the intersection and it's enough to slow me from 15 mph to a stop without touching the brakes once. So you can 1) learn two-foot driving, 2) learn heel-and-toe driving, or 3) learn the exact amount of throttle to apply to keep the car in place without brakes on a hill. I've tried both with and without power steering. Wheel is quite heavy without it, but drivable.
One can step on the brakes real hard, and same with throttle. Though the torque is sufficient that I rarely punch the gas more than 1/3 of the way.
Recharging: requires a CCS plug recharger. For a 60 KW charger, and about 20-30% juice left, full recharge is about 1.5 to 1.75 hours, but we generally allocate 1 hour for recharging. I drive all night (about 5+ hours of actual road time) while consuming about 50% of the energy. Range is not too bad, IMHO.
Overall, the vehicle is smaller on the inside than one suspected. While it looks good, the overall driving feel left me underwhelmed.
My game FAQs | Playing: She Will Punish Them, Sunrider: Mask of Arcadius, The Outer Worlds
Though that would have been fun in 1990 for me, I think. Today all I can see that's not a very fun way to die. But it is impressive.
I think dying in that situation would require some extra effort. You also have to remember where the center of gravity is in these designed from the ground up EVs.
Car goes backwards and slides away from the tread and recovery goes beyond my control then rolling becomes a very real possibility. Have at it. I wouldn't have blinked an eye at doing that when I was 20. I'm not that guy anymore.
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I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
I had a Chevy salesperson contact me when I was doing research a few years ago. I told her I'm still trying to determine if this car meets my needs. "Oh, it does!" she said, without asking what my needs are. I'll never buy a Chevy EV thanks to that exchange.
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:34 pm
Where are they at? There are definitely areas where it's not available, but within 2 hours of a service center is not typically where I'd expect to see that. My Mom had it available in East Tennessee long before there was a local service center, though she hasn't needed it yet.
Greenville, SC - have to keep driving to Charlotte, NC for the service (which is better than the other option in Atlanta).
That's frustrating. My Mom is near Knoxville, which just finally got a service center at the end of last month. Prior to that the Knoxville/Pigeon Forge area had mobile available. Maybe one of those mobile techs will now move to Greenville. Or maybe there aren't many owners in Greenville.
There are certainly a TON of them here in Asheville, so I would think Greenville would get the halo effect if nothing else.
Though that would have been fun in 1990 for me, I think. Today all I can see that's not a very fun way to die. But it is impressive.
I think dying in that situation would require some extra effort. You also have to remember where the center of gravity is in these designed from the ground up EVs.
I agree. Risk of a rollover there were really small and even then it's a low speed rollover in a reinforced cabin. It isn't hard to imagine they picked this spot for this little demo for a reason. It was relatively uniform exposed rock in dry conditions. The wheel slip was fairly minimal and the driver seemed to have no issues finding the balance of power to apply.
The founder of a prominent electric semi truck manufacturer has been indicted on multiple fraud charges for allegedly making false claims about the truck to deceive investors.
For the commercial shoot, the non-functioning Nikola One prototype truck was hauled to the shooting location by a lowboy semi-truck trailer. At this time, and more than a year after the unveiling event, the Nikola One still could not run under its own power. It was towed to the top of an inclined stretch of road and then filmed rolling down the incline. This towing-and-rolling process was repeated three times to have sufficient footage for Company 1’s commercial.
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I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
As I wrestle with an emissions problem on our 2nd car, I appreciate my Tesla more. I never really understood how involved emissions controls are on vehicles but knowing I don’t have to worry about any of that on an electric car is wonderful.
I was hoping the problem is just a loose gas cap on our 4 year old Honda but there is no gas cap. So who knows what part of the system is throwing the code.
So much less to worry about with an electric car, I’ll take charging challenges any day than maintenance on an older ICE car.
Just thought I'd mention this, that the upcoming Car Mechanic Simulator 2021, a continuation of a fairly popular series, will introduce elective vehicles in a DLC for the game. Now folks will know how to take apart their BEVs!
My father said that anything is interesting if you bother to read about it - Michael C. Harrold
telcta wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:04 am
As I wrestle with an emissions problem on our 2nd car, I appreciate my Tesla more. I never really understood how involved emissions controls are on vehicles but knowing I don’t have to worry about any of that on an electric car is wonderful.
I was hoping the problem is just a loose gas cap on our 4 year old Honda but there is no gas cap. So who knows what part of the system is throwing the code.
So much less to worry about with an electric car, I’ll take charging challenges any day than maintenance on an older ICE car.
I couldn't tell you how many times I've been able to make simple repairs myself for very little cost by just borrowing a scanner (A lot of Auto stores, like AutoZone and Pep Boys will scan your car for free) from a friend, writing down the trouble code, googling the trouble code and then watching a youtube video on how to replace the part. Forums are also a huge help on newer vehicles and if you have a semi-popular car there will usually be so many owners on the forum that they'll diagnose the problem in no time.
Since you're talking about a 4yr old Honda, I would be willing to bet you that the problem is simple, like a bad sensor of some sort, and is something you can fix yourself in minutes for $50 or less.
Tesla released their 2020 Impact Report today. While obviously this is Tesla-centric, I'm putting it here rather than in the Tesla thread since a good portion of it is relevant to any full BEV. Lots of FUD still going around about lifetime emissions, fire risk, etc, addressed herein.
I haven't tried to run the numbers, but I would posit that even the Chevy Bolt, with its current fire problems, carries no worse a risk of fire than an ICE-powered vehicle.
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:38 am
I haven't tried to run the numbers, but I would posit that even the Chevy Bolt, with its current fire problems, carries no worse a risk of fire than an ICE-powered vehicle.
I remember a couple of years ago an article on Jalopnick (sp?) where an automotive engineer talked about how many ICE cars caught on fire on a statistical basis. It was actually worse than BEVs. Hardly a surprise, when you think of all the stuff going on under the hood.
My father said that anything is interesting if you bother to read about it - Michael C. Harrold
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:38 am
I haven't tried to run the numbers, but I would posit that even the Chevy Bolt, with its current fire problems, carries no worse a risk of fire than an ICE-powered vehicle.
I remember a couple of years ago an article on Jalopnick (sp?) where an automotive engineer talked about how many ICE cars caught on fire on a statistical basis. It was actually worse than BEVs. Hardly a surprise, when you think of all the stuff going on under the hood.
Oh, yeah. In general it's not even close. I'm saying even with the worst BEV fire issue ever, I think it's still not particularly close.
For the Bolt, depending on how you count, there have been about 13 fires. In the US, the recall is for 51,000 vehicles and 69,000 if you go global. So about 0.025% domestic risk of fire (of course, that's "thus far").
Zaxxon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:40 pm
The Juicebox can be installed outdoors, as well. Since you probably don't want a Tesla charger, that's what I'd go with
Yeah, Tesla doesn't make sense at this point. Looks like the leading candidates are Juicebox and Chargepoint. Juicebox unit has been solid, but the App has not been great. Not really a deal breaker as we don't have TOU pricing, but it can be annoying.
Back when we were. Leaf/Volvo household, we had a JuiceBox. I remember that it did support ToU. I do agree that the Chargepoint app is snazzier, tho. Is that unit still 32A? So long as you don't care about that extra 8A, also a good choice from what I've read. Haven't used that one myself.
