Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

[Daehawk]

[Formix]

Now Hyundai/Kia are on board. This effectively ends the plug wars in the US.

I'll be interested to see what their 800V solution is.

[Kasey Chang]

You may have heard about the 41000 dent on a Rivian.

Boyette instantly figured out why the shop quoted such a high amount once the truck arrived. The R1T's bed (which is where the majority of the damage is localized) is tied into the same body panel as the cab. That means that it's also tied into the roof and A-pillar. It also means that in order to properly replace the entire panel the way a body shop would, the back glass, panoramic roof, windshield, and battery pack must all be removed. Boyette said nearly the entire side of the truck would likely have to be repainted if the owner had gone the conventional, costly repair route.

[GreenGoo]

I was just reading an article (on usnews, no idea if reputable) which was Hyundai vs Honda. They compare sub-compacts, compacts, suvs etc etc.

I stopped reading when it came to Hybrids and EVs. They say that Honda wins, and then proceed to mention and link to multiple Hyundai models. There was literally zero Honda models mentioned, discussed or linked to. Hilarious.

[Zaxxon]

Yeah, Honda would not be described as a leader in this area. They’re right in the back of the pack alongside Toyota (for BEVs) and Mazda.

[stessier]

Yeah, Honda would not be described as a leader in this area. They’re right in the back of the pack alongside Toyota (for BEVs) and Mazda.

Does Honda even have a BEV? At least Toyota does - even if they still don't think BEVs are the future.

[Zaxxon]

Yeah, Honda would not be described as a leader in this area. They’re right in the back of the pack alongside Toyota (for BEVs) and Mazda.

Does Honda even have a BEV? At least Toyota does - even if they still don't think BEVs are the future.

Honda has (had, when I last looked) exactly one, and it was a little weird and IIRC only available in compliance areas.

[stessier]

Yeah, Honda would not be described as a leader in this area. They’re right in the back of the pack alongside Toyota (for BEVs) and Mazda.

Does Honda even have a BEV? At least Toyota does - even if they still don't think BEVs are the future.

Honda has (had, when I last looked) exactly one, and it was a little weird and IIRC only available in compliance areas.

Internet says the first one is the Honda Prologue due out in 2024. Given how late they are to the party, Epilogue would have been a better name. Ba bum, bum *cymbal crash*.

[Zaxxon]

Yeah, Honda would not be described as a leader in this area. They’re right in the back of the pack alongside Toyota (for BEVs) and Mazda.

Does Honda even have a BEV? At least Toyota does - even if they still don't think BEVs are the future.

Honda has (had, when I last looked) exactly one, and it was a little weird and IIRC only available in compliance areas.

Internet says the first one is the Honda Prologue due out in 2024. Given how late they are to the party, Epilogue would have been a better name. Ba bum, bum *cymbal crash*.

I'm talking about the Honda e.

[stessier]

Yeah, Honda would not be described as a leader in this area. They’re right in the back of the pack alongside Toyota (for BEVs) and Mazda.

Does Honda even have a BEV? At least Toyota does - even if they still don't think BEVs are the future.

Honda has (had, when I last looked) exactly one, and it was a little weird and IIRC only available in compliance areas.

Internet says the first one is the Honda Prologue due out in 2024. Given how late they are to the party, Epilogue would have been a better name. Ba bum, bum *cymbal crash*.

I'm talking about the Honda e.

Not available in America, thus there is no proof it exists.

[Zaxxon]

Yeah, Honda would not be described as a leader in this area. They’re right in the back of the pack alongside Toyota (for BEVs) and Mazda.

Does Honda even have a BEV? At least Toyota does - even if they still don't think BEVs are the future.

Honda has (had, when I last looked) exactly one, and it was a little weird and IIRC only available in compliance areas.

Internet says the first one is the Honda Prologue due out in 2024. Given how late they are to the party, Epilogue would have been a better name. Ba bum, bum *cymbal crash*.

I'm talking about the Honda e.

Not available in America, thus there is no proof it exists.

Yeah, I would not be surprised if they made approximately 27 of them and called it a day. It was clearly never a serious effort for Honda.

[wonderpug]

Honda has the Prologue in the pipeline, at least, and on paper I think it looks really appealing. The Model Y, Mach E, and Ioniq 5 look nice but are all maybe just big enough for my needs, and the Prologue should be a decent bigger.

[GreenGoo]

Yeah, Honda would not be described as a leader in this area. They’re right in the back of the pack alongside Toyota (for BEVs) and Mazda.

Does Honda even have a BEV? At least Toyota does - even if they still don't think BEVs are the future.

New one coming in 2024. Nothing in Canada right now though (edit: Prologue, as wonder (and stessier) pointed out), and Honda site only listing CR-V and Accord hybrids. Which is just another pillar in the joke that was the article.

[Zaxxon]

BMW/Mini now on board with NACS.

[Kasey Chang]

NACS (i.e. Tesla Superchargers) makes charging roadtrips suck less, but the overall process still sucks.

Most of the alternate charging networks (i.e. non-Tesla) are deployed in smaller sizes (i.e. 2-3 stalls and often in the back parking lots.) and thus very rarely would they deliver full amps, as they probably don't get enough high-amp runs to the charging island. When you get a couple broken stations, and EV owners not understanding their vehicles (a slow-charge vehicle hogging a fast-charge station) you get a horrible experience.

Tesla superchargers, esp. with higher level cooling functions, and excellent self-monitoring, would make road trips suck less, but full-speed charging lessens the battery operating life.

[stessier]

If it gets more people to drive BEVs, I guess it's great. But the idea that anyone would want this is just crazy to me.

Electric cars do a lot of things well. They're smooth. They're quiet. They're easier on the environment, and they're even scientifically proven to be less stressful. But what they don't tend to be is engaging, at least not in the way that a traditional car with three pedals and a stick shift is.

A manual car requires a lot more of the driver. That level of forced engagement brings with it a sort of focus that can make the simple act of driving a lot more fun. In an ideal world, it would be possible to layer that kind of engagement on top of the otherwise ideal EV experience.

That is exactly what Toyota has done with what it calls the "Manual BEV concept." Think of it as an EV that brings all the hands-on enjoyment of a manual transmission—despite lacking a manual transmission. It's something of a testbed to find ways to bring more fundamental driver enjoyment to the next generation of battery-powered electric vehicles, and after running a few laps around Toyota's test track in one, I'm convinced every sports-oriented EV in the future needs this.

[Zaxxon]

Seems bizarre to me, but I'm not the target audience, either.

[GreenGoo]

Lots of articles lately about how EVs are a failure. Lots of headlines about how "manufacturers" reporting that EVs "are not working".

I haven't bothered to read said articles, but lots of agendas being pushed, it seems to me.

I do peek at the occasional article, and the last one was about how EVs don't save you money. I have no idea how the math works out, but "saving money" is not the primary criteria for most EV owners, even if it's a consideration.

Sigh.

[em2nought]

I have no idea how the math works out, but "saving money" is not the primary criteria for most EV owners, even if it's a consideration.

Sigh.

We peons who would appreciate being able to still afford a moving vehicle are a bit concerned about costs though.

[JCC]

I would guess the "not working" refers to the fact that EV sales are not good right now and automakers are cutting production because of this. There are numerous articles out there about this.

[Zaxxon]

I would guess the "not working" refers to the fact that EV sales are not good right now and automakers are cutting production because of this. There are numerous articles out there about this.

Specifically, EV sales from certain manufacturers are not good right now, and automakers are cutting production because of this and other related reasons (see largely: UAW strikes and new contract terms resulting from the strikes, but also high interest rates and inflation).

There's a mix of valid reasons and excuse-making going on right now.

[GreenGoo]

I'll just point out that the kia stock has been low and in demand in Canada all year. Reserving one required getting into a line with 10's of thousands of other people across the country (which I haven't done. I'm still somewhat paralyzed in terms of decision).

As far as auto sales, they are down across the board, as several channels I follow are filled with doom and gloom for plenty of ICE models as well (often because the model has been priced out of the market).

I'm not following the industry as a whole, nor am I reading in depth, but there is plenty of negativity to go around.

[coopasonic]

As far as auto sales, they are down across the board, as several channels I follow are filled with doom and gloom for plenty of ICE models as well (often because the model has been priced out of the market).

I'm not following the industry as a whole, nor am I reading in depth, but there is plenty of negativity to go around.

Auto finance is my job. Things are seriously ugly, particularly for new cars, mostly due to interest rates.

[stessier]

My brother got a quote to install an electric charger in preparation to buying a BEV. The total was $12,899. I asked him what the main cost driver was and he said he had no idea - all he got was a statement that said "Electric car charger install - $12,899." I know his fuse panel is on the other side of the house from his garage, but this still seems like a contractor who does not want to install an electric charger.

[malchior]

I'd like to see the breakdown because I had a 100->200 amp service upgrade, garage sub panel, and a 100 foot run of 90A aluminum SER wire run from the panel into the garage, and the 60A circuit run to my charger for $3000 in NJ. I provided the charger. That's price is preposterous.

[Freyland]

I'd like to see the breakdown because I had a 100->200 amp service upgrade, garage sub panel, and a 100 foot run of 90A aluminum SER wire run from the panel into the garage, and the 60A circuit run to my charger for $3000 in NJ. I provided the charger. That's price is preposterous.

Similar process, only $1000 in Michigan.

[Zaxxon]

Yep, $12k seems absurd for anything less than a home built in the 1800s with knob-and-tube throughout. As malchior described, even with a service upgrade, subpanel, and substantial run of high-amperage-rated wiring, the cost was 'only' a few thousand. Anything above $5k is beyond what I've seen/heard of personally. Mine were pretty simple but ranged from $600 to $1500.

[em2nought]

Boy, I'd be hesitant to charge one of these bad boys in my "attached" garage. I think my costs would have to include building a detached garage.

[LordMortis]

I would guess the "not working" refers to the fact that EV sales are not good right now and automakers are cutting production because of this. There are numerous articles out there about this.

It's not so much that they are failing, it's that successful sales rely on government subsidy and selling at unsustainable margins. So the model should be a failing business model. EVs themselves are working just fine. Investment in EV companies to make money, well not so much, and being a traditional OEM trying to compete with companies whose backers are billionaires who believe in growth at any cost, and swarms of true believers and common folk who live WallStreet Bets lifestyle is not a great proposition. They are losing money to build EV franchises. Of course, that is in no small part because they paid lip service to R&D and slowly building brands in the market while investment and subsidies went their budding competition. In the US, Tesla is the sole money maker and it makes money largely off of subsidy. It keeps pricing competitive with ICE vehicles with its unsustainable margins, forcing it's competition to lose billions of dollars to try and compete, for which it must.

This is not necessarily the case in other countries where labor and supply chains are different. I can't speak to those.

I'd like to see the breakdown because I had a 100->200 amp service upgrade, garage sub panel, and a 100 foot run of 90A aluminum SER wire run from the panel into the garage, and the 60A circuit run to my charger for $3000 in NJ. I provided the charger. That's price is preposterous.

Similar process, only $1000 in Michigan.

I tend to hear around $1500 in Michigan with the allowance that it could be more if things get complicated... Like would be the case for me, with shoddy electric built in the 50s, which would need to come up to code to have a professional work on it. $12000 sounds like someone who doesn't want to the job or is looking for a sucker, to me.

[Zaxxon]

It's not so much that they are failing, it's that successful sales rely on government subsidy and selling at unsustainable margins. So the model should be a failing business model. EVs themselves are working just fine. Investment in EV companies to make money, well not so much, and being a traditional OEM trying to compete with companies whose backers are billionaires who believe in growth at any cost, and swarms of true believers and common folk who live WallStreet Bets lifestyle is not a great proposition. They are losing money to build EV franchises. Of course, that is in no small part because they paid lip service to R&D and slowly building brands in the market while investment and subsidies went their budding competition. In the US, Tesla is the sole money maker and it makes money largely off of subsidy. It keeps pricing competitive with ICE vehicles with its unsustainable margins, forcing it's competition to lose billions of dollars to try and compete, for which it must.

We're now a decade into testing my theory (discussed here ad nauseum over that timespan) that this outcome was essentially inevitable. It's been clear for a very long time that effectively all auto production will go electric. Quickly with the help of government mandates and subsidies, or more slowly as the underlying physics dictate that the cars eventually cost less than ICE cars while performing better both for the owner and society.

There is no doubt in my mind (and hasn't been for a decade) that many if not most of the legacy automakers are not long for this world. Converting an automaker whose essential competency is the internal-combustion engine and assembling parts designed by and procured from other companies to one who's great at electric powertrains, software, and vertical integration is... not easy and is something that requires a forward-thinking strategy on a scale of decades, not quarterly earnings calls. The folks in charge can't help but focus on the next months/year and/or their golden parachutes. Toss in the UAW with its vested interest in protecting the status quo and things don't get any easier.

Legacy OEMs don't want to upset investors by taking the medicine too quickly (and tanking financial results further than they think they must), but putting it off too long is at least as risky. Any OEM still garnering most of its earnings from ICE vehicle sales when the adoption curve of BEVs hits its inflection point is royally fuct. Whenever I see OEMs backing off of their BEV goals, I get nervous for them, as they don't have a choice as to whether to keep going or not--delaying is simply amping up the risk that their company goes under.

The one dude that I thought was doing a good job (Herbert Diess at VW) got the ax after he tried a little too hard to actually make the transition.

Love or hate Tesla (and there's a lot to both love and hate), they've collectively had their eye on the prize from the start, and it's paid off.

[LordMortis]

There is no doubt in my mind (and hasn't been for a decade) that many if not most of the legacy automakers are not long for this world.

During and after this strike, I can't see how Stallantis survives and the map for Ford and GM is a tightrope I have a hard time seeing them walk. The union is convinced they are making record profits while they sink billions a year in to catch up only to sell at a loss while having to pay compensations of double or more of their competition. That said, it's a bed they largely made themselves, taking profit when they can but asking everyone else to take concessions when they can't. The transplants are in better shape with cheaper labor costs in states that largely treat labor like natural resources, but the fact of the matter is it still takes less labor to build an EV once you tech properly developed. Getting 10 years behind the curve concurrent with more expensive labor that somehow wants to grow their numbers while maintaining legacy pensions. Good luck with that.

Forget the idea of legacy OEMs, it's still Tesla and everybody else (in the US. Asia is a a story I don't grasp well enough to speculate. I know nothing about the likes NIO or BYD). I like RIVIAN. Not sure they can survive. LMC, do they even exist any more of have they gone under yet? Lucid and Fisker? Don't hear much about them anymore. And Tesla, while making money now, are doing with the smallest of margins. As I understand it, their wages are propped up by stock options, which is propped up the perennial bull case for growth at any cost. But they are making money.

[Isgrimnur]

The one dude that I thought was doing a good job (Herbert Diess at VW) got the ax after he tried a little too hard to actually make the transition.

In 2019, Herbert Diess told VW employees at a work event "EBIT macht frei", a play on the words “Arbeit macht frei” (Work makes you free) which was the slogan over the entrance to Auschwitz and other concentration camps. During the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Herbert Diess called for Brussels (the EU) to push for a peace deal with Russia so that trade could resume and the EU's commercial interests would be protected.

Seems like a pragmatic guy.

[Zaxxon]

I’m not endorsing the guy’s worldview.

[Isgrimnur]

I didn't figure. I just went researching and thought I'd share the highlights that made his wiki page.

[Kasey Chang]

There's not enough EV charging networks across the country to make a proper EV roadtrip painless without using a hybrid (i.e. EV with a range extender).

EV is, at best, a commute option for in-city or suburbia shopping trips or work commute and such, i.e. a 2nd car for a multi-car household, for those early adopters who can afford so. They are only good for fixed trips within an area where they are decently supported.

And those early adopters who wanted an EV have pretty much all gotten an EV by this point.

Tesla started a price war in 2023 by cutting prices, and they are now BARELY making money. They're trying to cut costs on making the stuff to keep the prices low, but there's only so much they can trim.

Everybody else was going basically super-premium like Fisker Ocean, except the Koreans. Hyundai and Kia wants to play.

The Americans are pausing their EV expansion plans as they are NOT going to compete with Tesla... they can't.

Europeans... are mainly going premium, and even VW are pausing expansion plans for EV, I think.

China's EVs are... questionable. There's two camps on these. Either they are perfectly fine vehicles, or they're propaganda companies propped up by government subsidies that will collapse any second much like the rest of China's "tofu dreg construction". I honestly can't tell what's real from what's negative propaganda.

Don't even start on the Vietnamese (VinFast). It's already got a reputation as the worst car in America. (Already got a review by Donut).

[stessier]

There's not enough EV charging networks across the country to make a proper EV roadtrip painless without using a hybrid (i.e. EV with a range extender).

I guess it depends on your definition of painless, but I rate this very much not true.

[Zaxxon]

There's not enough EV charging networks across the country to make a proper EV roadtrip painless without using a hybrid (i.e. EV with a range extender).

I guess it depends on your definition of painless, but I rate this very much not true.

Can confirm.

[Kasey Chang]

Oh, you'll make it, and your apps / car WILL let you PLAN trips around the charge points, but you're stuck for hours at each place, none of which are very interesting, THEN you'll deal with incompatible chargers (unless you're a Tesla, or when everybody has adapters for Supercharger network.

Situation will improve in 48 months, when everybody changes over to Tesla adapters, but EV has a long way to approach "just fuel and go" convenience of conventional cars.

[Zaxxon]

Hours at each place, lol. Just stop, Kasey. You clearly don't know what you're talking about here.

[coopasonic]

Hours at each place, lol. Just stop, Kasey. You clearly don't know what you're talking about here.

Hey man, have you tried charging at a Cinemark? I got like 10% after 2.5 hours! (Note: I made up that number as I just did it for the novelty and paid no attention to what I got)

I think the chargers at my office were giving 15-20 miles of range per hour.

I guess It's a good thing nobody (sane) uses level 2 chargers on road trips. My level 2 at home is twice as fast as the ones at work though.