[Poll] Vaccine Mandates - Yay or Nay

[Grifman]

Biden recently announced his new plan for dealing with Covid and it leans heavily on vaccine mandates, or a mandate with an option for testing for many groups of people in the US.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/10/politics ... index.html

Of course, I have some "friends" on Facebook are very upset about this. So I was curious what my fellow OOer's thought. So here's your chance to make your voice heard.

I hope I covered most of the primary options but if I've missed something let me know and I can add it.

It should also be noted that the Supreme Court has previously ruled that mandates are legal but that was in 1905 so it is possible that the current court might rule differently - because you know people are going to sue over this:

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... ent-510280

[noxiousdog]

We've had public school mandates for vaccines for decades. I don't see why COVID should be any different.

[stessier]

I voted that I'm in favor of requiring the vaccine, but really I'm good with any of the first three options. Heck, we are living in Option 4 right now but I'm not particularly happy about it - not for what it means for me, but what it means for those who don't have my advantages/options.

[LordMortis]

I am not in favor of a vaccine mandate but instead using other coercive measures such as higher insurance premiums, requiring vaccine passports for certain activities (large public such as concerts, sports) and travel

This but considerably more draconian than is implied, which includes work in the public space at any and all levels which include expediting vaccination for children and requiring it for school, including private institutions. You want to home school? That's your only way out. "Your right to choose."

[YellowKing]

Yeah I'm in the camp of "this isn't new." We've required vaccines for any number of things forever - school, military, healthcare settings. And that's for diseases that *aren't* killing 1500 people a day and running rampant throughout the world.

We've also passed laws that prevent "your choice" of smoking in a public area, because "your choice" could impact the health of those around you. We've passed laws to punish drunk driving because "your choice" to drink and drive could impact the health of those around you.

By choosing not to get the vaccine, you literally have the potential to kill people. Your potential threat level is many times magnitude worse than lighting up a cigarette or getting behind the wheel while impaired.

[stimpy]

I am vaccinated and I believe everyone should be.
But mandate or not, there are those that just will not get it
I think the genie is way too far out of the bottle to get them to change their minds, no matter the cost.

[stessier]

I am vaccinated and I believe everyone should be.
But mandate or not, there are those that just will not get it
I think the genie is way too far out of the bottle to get them to change their minds, no matter the cost.

Perhaps, but if the mandate as described actually gets implemented, it'll be hard to find a job. At some point, you gotta eat after all.

[Blackhawk]

There is no reason to refuse vaccination that isn't based on a foundation of bullshit. If there was actually a good reason, I'd seriously consider whether a mandate was appropriate, but without one? It is people refusing a common requirement because of conspiracy theories, where the alternative is a huge death toll.

[noxiousdog]

There is no reason to refuse vaccination that isn't based on a foundation of bullshit.

Not a news flash, but there are immunocompromised folks that cannot take vaccines. Very rare, and they can be exempted from mandates.

[Carpet_pissr]

There is no reason to refuse vaccination that isn't based on a foundation of bullshit.

Not a news flash, but there are immunocompromised folks that cannot take vaccines. Very rare, and they can be exempted from mandates.

I suspect those cases will become very much less rare with this in place (artificially of course).

[Blackhawk]

There is no reason to refuse vaccination that isn't based on a foundation of bullshit.

Not a news flash, but there are immunocompromised folks that cannot take vaccines. Very rare, and they can be exempted from mandates.

I'm not talking about those unable to be vaccinated, I'm talking about the unwilling. I didn't specify it, as at this point, I figured it was pretty much understood that that's what this conversation is about.

[Unagi]

There is no reason to refuse vaccination that isn't based on a foundation of bullshit.

Not a news flash, but there are immunocompromised folks that cannot take vaccines. Very rare, and they can be exempted from mandates.

I'm not talking about those unable to be vaccinated, I'm talking about the unwilling. I didn't specify it, as at this point, I figured it was pretty much understood that that's what this conversation is about.

It was. Don’t worry about it.


Let’s all collectively realize that no one thinks people who truly can’t get the vaccine should be forced to.

[Smoove_B]

Hmmm...I'll need to think about this.

Spoiler:

Just kidding

[Kurth]

So, I’m the one data point here for letting Americans choose to play the death lottery if they want, but that’s only because I didn’t see the option I really wanted to select, which combines “Let Americans choose to play the death lottery if they’re that stupid, BUT require them to stay the fuck home until they come to their senses.”

Personally, I have no problem with the government requiring people to get vaccinated. But for our freedumb loving fellow citizens, I understand they want to hold on to the illusion that their lives are 100% self-determined and they want to be free to choose whether to take a free, potentially life-saving vaccine that will also significantly help protect other more vulnerable citizens.

For them, I understand that a mandate to get vaccinated is akin to submitting to Nazi rule, so I’d favor allowing them to remain unvaccinated if they so choose, but that choice should bring with it a full raft of consequences that would essentially bar them from participating in public life until they come to their senses and make a better choice.

[Jaymann]

This is a complicated and divisive issue. Let me tell you about someone close to me who is on the other side of the issue, to see their perspective.

They went from being horrified when Florida Man was elected to supporting the Gavin Newsom recall (and the Republican dipshit candidate) because they oppose mandates.

They are under threat of losing their job for not being vaccinated (I recommended they claim a religious objection - that always seems to throw bureaucracies for a loop).

They are not an "anti-vaxer" just anti mandated covid vaccine.

They feel that the covid vaccine uses an experimental and untrustworthy formulation.

They don't trust the government or its health experts.

We don't know the long term effects of the vaccine.

It is another step in government trying to control every aspect of our lives.

They claim there are a greater number of adverse reactions to the vaccine than the government lets on.

The number of deaths from disease during covid haven't increased significantly.

The risk of dying from covid has been overstated.


We disagree completely on this issue and don't discuss it anymore. But this is not a raving MAGA idiot. It is an intelligent, rational person with informed views on other issues.

[Pyperkub]

This is a public health crisis, and delays make it worse (see Delta, C.1.2, whatever's next).

A stitch in time saves nine - we need to nip this in the bud, and freedom has always meant freedom as long as one isn't harming others through that exercise.

[LordMortis]

So, I’m the one data point here for letting Americans choose to play the death lottery if they want, but that’s only because I didn’t see the option I really wanted to select, which combines “Let Americans choose to play the death lottery if they’re that stupid, BUT require them to stay the fuck home until they come to their senses.”

That's close to my thoughts on draconian coercive measure, basically "these are the rules of society. You have the freedom to checkout but you're still going to pay your taxes."

[Pyperkub]

Vaccine mandates work:

The most important thing about vaccine mandates, though? "They work," says Saad Omer, director of the Yale Institute for Global Health and an expert in vaccine acceptance. "A lot of the evidence comes from childhood vaccinations. For adults, it comes from influenza vaccinations for health care workers. It shows that having mandates is effective. It gets you from 70 or 80 percent to 90 or 95 percent."

Public schools across the US require kids to show proof of vaccinations against various illnesses;...

...There's a catch: you have to do mandates right. For one thing, mandate policies seen as extraordinarily harsh can spark an anti-vaccine backlash. But the real problem is one size can't fit all. People are unvaccinated for lots of different reasons. Sure, some of them have political or philosophical disagreements. Some people don't believe the (very good, very robust) science behind vaccines, or they subscribe to conspiracy theories about their creation

[Carpet_pissr]

They feel that the covid vaccine uses an experimental and untrustworthy formulation.
Feel? Hmmm. I think we KNOW they are experimental, right? That's no conspiracy. And it was pretty much said upfront that there were several unknowns with the vaccines. Maybe he's referring to rNA vaccine tech specifically? Hate to tell him, but from what I've read, they will all be that way in the near future.

They don't trust the government or its health experts.
Personal issue. I certainly trust them (specifically FDA and CDC) less than I did say 5 or 10 years ago.

We don't know the long term effects of the vaccine.
How could we?

It is another step in government trying to control every aspect of our lives.
Meh. I don't think there's some puppetmaster ACTIVELY trying to increase control over personal lives as an end goal. Certainly don't think The Government is trying to somehow control us via the vaccine effort. They ARE trying to control the pandemic however. Those two things may look similar to someone more paranoid than I.

They claim there are a greater number of adverse reactions to the vaccine than the government lets on.
Certainly possible, and I would not be surprised that this was actively being tamped down. But, proof, or Feels again?

The number of deaths from disease during covid haven't increased significantly.
?! Not sure I understand the meaning of this one.

The risk of dying from covid has been overstated.
Possibly. Also would not be surprised. But by whom? Media? White House? Fauci? CDC? "everybody"? The "by whom" is important here, I think.

I mean, most of those arguments aren't crazy-talk, IMO. But there are enough head-scratchers that IMO would make me question if this person is truly as rational as I thought they were (in the literal sense of the word).

[Carpet_pissr]

This is a public health crisis, and delays make it worse (see Delta, C.1.2, whatever's next).

A stitch in time saves nine - we need to nip this in the bud, and freedom has always meant freedom as long as one isn't harming others through that exercise.

Mu. Mu is next, and apparently it's quite big in Florida already.

Also, I think we are past nipping this in the bud, no? That would have been appropriate language last year, Spring-ish.

[Jaymann]

They feel that the covid vaccine uses an experimental and untrustworthy formulation.
Feel? Hmmm. I think we KNOW they are experimental, right? That's no conspiracy. And it was pretty much said upfront that there were several unknowns with the vaccines. Maybe he's referring to rNA vaccine tech specifically? Hate to tell him, but from what I've read, they will all be that way in the near future.

They don't trust the government or its health experts.
Personal issue. I certainly trust them (specifically FDA and CDC) less than I did say 5 or 10 years ago.

We don't know the long term effects of the vaccine.
How could we?

It is another step in government trying to control every aspect of our lives.
Meh. I don't think there's some puppetmaster ACTIVELY trying to increase control over personal lives as an end goal. Certainly don't think The Government is trying to somehow control us via the vaccine effort. They ARE trying to control the pandemic however. Those two things may look similar to someone more paranoid than I.

They claim there are a greater number of adverse reactions to the vaccine than the government lets on.
Certainly possible, and I would not be surprised that this was actively being tamped down. But, proof, or Feels again?

The number of deaths from disease during covid haven't increased significantly.
?! Not sure I even understand this one.

The risk of dying from covid has been overstated.
Possibly. Also would not be surprised. But by whom? Media? White House? Fauci? CDC? "everybody"? The "by whom" is important here, I think.

I have expressed these arguments and more. But they think I have succumbed to the propaganda of "the man." Which is ironic because that was pretty much my world view during the Nixon era.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

They feel that the covid vaccine uses an experimental and untrustworthy formulation.
Feel? Hmmm. I think we KNOW they are experimental, right? That's no conspiracy. And it was pretty much said upfront that there were several unknowns with the vaccines. Maybe he's referring to rNA vaccine tech specifically? Hate to tell him, but from what I've read, they will all be that way in the near future.

Yeah, if this is one of their main concerns couldn't they take the J&J vaccine that was created using the "traditional" method?

[Carpet_pissr]

The risk of dying from covid has been overstated.

This one in particular drives me crazy. It was one of my Dad's faves.

OK, Pops, let's say you're right. But how do you feel about spending 3 weeks or more in a hospital with its associated bills (if you can even GET a room right now)? How would it feel, not being able to breathe for 3 weeks, or being on a respirator (if you can find one!)? Or what about some lingering, long term effect of having had COVID? Maybe it's borked your lungs or heart function permanently?

I mean, these things aren't as bad as death (maybe), but they sure aren't desirable! WTF man.

This is a shitty argument that assumes there is nothing between DEATH and 100% health.

The only common ground I can reach here, is that we do seem (as a society) to have overblown the seriousness or risk to health of those who have been vaccinated. It seems to be pretty much cold symptoms in the vast majority (those who test positive for COVID, AND are fully vaccinated at the time of contracting it). But I assume your guy is talking about risk of death to the non-vaccinated.

[Smoove_B]

You're never going to convince an oppositional/defiant person to do anything; give up. They need to experience consequences and that's where we are.

Regarding "mandate" I do want to clarify a little tiny thing here that is rather important. This isn't a vaccination mandate as much as it is a workplace safety mandate - that's the lens though which action is being applied. The reason I'm being pedantic over it is because for this next phase, I do think the language matters. And trying to frame this as a "violation of my body integrity" is a whole different argument of framing this as an obligation on the part of the government to make all workplaces safe (well, those with over 100 people, to start). No one is mandating a vaccine or restricting the activities of people that aren't. Instead we're making sure that work places are safe and if you're not agreeable to this new OSHA mandate (or any other OSHA regulations you've been following all along), then you can go work somewhere else.

To enact protections to keep us safer in the workplace during a global pandemic is not the route I'd imagined, but it does seem to be a potential path forward.

[LordMortis]

To enact protections to keep us safer in the workplace during a global pandemic is not the route I'd imagined, but it does seem to be a potential path forward.

We have been guided by OSHA and MIOSHA as a primary source of restriction to work and workspaces since summer 2020. The state has also been largely hiding behind MIOSHA authority and standards to divorce itself from Whitmer making EO mandates and being accused of doing so illegally, which is trough feed for Cox and the Chamber of Commerce and all their loyal voter suppression torch carriers.

[stessier]

I was talking with a colleague at work yesterday as he was watching some documentaries on conspiracy theories. One of the researchers said the believers could be broken down into three groups - The Crazies who will believe anything, the mentally unstable, and those that are just wrong. That last group is the subset that things logically but choose to believe one fact that sets the down the path of conspiracy. They didn't have any suggestions on how to reach that group, but I think it does help make the point that not everyone is a raving lunatic and that there should be some way to get that group back in the fold.

[Pyperkub]

This is a public health crisis, and delays make it worse (see Delta, C.1.2, whatever's next).

A stitch in time saves nine - we need to nip this in the bud, and freedom has always meant freedom as long as one isn't harming others through that exercise.

Mu. Mu is next, and apparently it's quite big in Florida already.

Also, I think we are past nipping this in the bud, no? That would have been appropriate language last year, Spring-ish.

Perhaps. Didn't have a vaccine last Spring, now did we?

[Carpet_pissr]

This is a public health crisis, and delays make it worse (see Delta, C.1.2, whatever's next).

A stitch in time saves nine - we need to nip this in the bud, and freedom has always meant freedom as long as one isn't harming others through that exercise.

Mu. Mu is next, and apparently it's quite big in Florida already.

Also, I think we are past nipping this in the bud, no? That would have been appropriate language last year, Spring-ish.

Perhaps. Didn't have a vaccine last Spring, now did we?

I guess I was referring more to HOW we/our government at the time, treated it, vaccine or no. Point is, the bud has bloomed, in fact several times (see reference to the "Mu" bloom that we will soon all be talking about like Delta and 1.0 before it).

[LordMortis]

That last group is the subset that things logically but choose to believe one fact that sets the down the path of conspiracy. They didn't have any suggestions on how to reach that group, but I think it does help make the point that not everyone is a raving lunatic and that there should be some way to get that group back in the fold.

Me either. These are people who seem to need to find themselves an authority on something they are not and they think their belief and bias are knowledge and their knowledge is privilege. They are infallible. I used to want to dialog, to come to greater understanding for all concerned but I burnt out. Now I just look for an exit. And I get triggered by lots of things to make me look for that exit. Appropriately enough, treating yourself as an authority on health supplements is one of the quickest ways for me tune out everything you say. In casual conversation, sure everyone has experience that they want to relay, but the person who wants to know what's going in your life, specifically so they can impart their version of "have you tried taking..." They're the teacher from Peanuts.

[$iljanus]

Like a good parent we can use both the carrot and stick. We should definitely engage the vaccine hesitant, push the positive benefits (aside from avoiding death or an ICU visit) and more importantly have more incentives for companies to let their workers get vaccinated and recuperate if needed. And we should be unsparing with the stick towards those who still refuse to be vaccinated and don’t have a legitimate medical reason, levy fines when appropriate for those not masking when asked, sanction companies who aren’t willing to be reasonable with their employees who may want to get vaccinated but their employers are being assholes about it.

The time for just the soft sell is over. Time to bring out the rod!

[Grifman]

This is a complicated and divisive issue. Let me tell you about someone close to me who is on the other side of the issue, to see their perspective.

They went from being horrified when Florida Man was elected to supporting the Gavin Newsom recall (and the Republican dipshit candidate) because they oppose mandates.

They are under threat of losing their job for not being vaccinated (I recommended they claim a religious objection - that always seems to throw bureaucracies for a loop).

They are not an "anti-vaxer" just anti mandated covid vaccine.

They feel that the covid vaccine uses an experimental and untrustworthy formulation.

They don't trust the government or its health experts.

We don't know the long term effects of the vaccine.

It is another step in government trying to control every aspect of our lives.

They claim there are a greater number of adverse reactions to the vaccine than the government lets on.

The number of deaths from disease during covid haven't increased significantly.

The risk of dying from covid has been overstated.


We disagree completely on this issue and don't discuss it anymore. But this is not a raving MAGA idiot. It is an intelligent, rational person with informed views on other issues.

The thing is, almost every one of these point is false, almost every one. I've engaged with these people and I'm tired of it and have no further sympathy. Suck it up or be get fired. I really don't care about their "concerns".

I'm just going to take my favorite pet peeve, "I don't trust the government". Seriously? Do they travel by air? If so, then they trust planes to be safe because the government approves all designs. The govt paid flight controllers keep the airways safe. What about air and water? The govt regulates the very air you breath and the water you drink, making sure it is safe. What about drugs - they take those, don't they? The FDA regulates those. And I could go on and on - autos, food, workplace safety. Why trust the govt on all those issues but not this one? Why exactly is this different?

But there's more. Has any major medical organization opposed the govt plans (and no, I don't mean "American's Frontline Doctors")? What about major medical universities and research institutions? Any objections there? What about the fact that AMA surveys indicate that 95% of doctors are vaccinated? Is vast majority of the medical profession in on the conspiracy?

But there's more. Almost every major Western country is using the same policies and the same vaccines. Their medical experts say the same thing. Are they a part of the US govt conspiracy?

So, no, I'm not just trusting the US govt, I'm trusting virtual every govt and medical authority in the entire fricking world.

Your friend sounds reasonable, but they're an idiot.

Note: Sure the govt lies at times, you'd have to be naive to not believe this. But when it has, it has always had a motivation - cover up incompetence, afraid of telling people the truth due to political implications, etc. But there's really NO good reason for the govt to be lying about Covid (other than Trump who clearly lied due to the political/economic implications for his re-election - perfect example there) and the vaccine. Why would they want people to die or get sick from an unsafe vaccine? It just makes no sense.

[Jaymann]

You're friend sounds reasonable, but they're an idiot.

Ad hominem issues aside, this is simply not true. It makes their misguided opinion all the more tragic.

[Grifman]

You're friend sounds reasonable, but they're an idiot.

Ad hominem issues aside, this is simply not true. It makes their misguided opinion all the more tragic.

Sorry, we have a pandemic that is on the way to killing 700k+ Americans, ICUs are filling up around the country so that non-Covid patients are having their health care rationed, and we have the solution to all of this and they refuse to avail themself of it for a series of totally bogus reasons. Yes, they are an idiot.

[Jaymann]

You're friend sounds reasonable, but they're an idiot.

Ad hominem issues aside, this is simply not true. It makes their misguided opinion all the more tragic.

Sorry, we have a pandemic that is on the way to killing 700k+ Americans, ICUs are filling up around the country so that non-Covid patients are having their health care rationed, and we have the solution to all of this and they refuse to avail themself of it for a series of totally bogus reasons. Yes, they are an idiot.

So hypothetically, if you were married to someone who held those opinions, but was totally reasonable on everything else, would you call them an idiot? Divorce them?

[stessier]

You're friend sounds reasonable, but they're an idiot.

Ad hominem issues aside, this is simply not true. It makes their misguided opinion all the more tragic.

Sorry, we have a pandemic that is on the way to killing 700k+ Americans, ICUs are filling up around the country so that non-Covid patients are having their health care rationed, and we have the solution to all of this and they refuse to avail themself of it for a series of totally bogus reasons. Yes, they are an idiot.

So hypothetically, if you were married to someone who held those opinions, but was totally reasonable on everything else, would you call them an idiot? Divorce them?

I've called and been called an idiot for less.

As for divorce, I don't know how people in opposite sides get along. I would assume that it would lead to divorce for most people.

[Smoove_B]

So hypothetically, if you were married to someone who held those opinions, but was totally reasonable on everything else, would you call them an idiot? Divorce them?

I've been thinking about this pretty much non-stop since 2016, and I honestly don't know how people on opposite ends of the spectrum are doing it. I genuinely don't know if I could possibly stay married to someone at this point that was 180 degrees on the other side of my perspective, currently. My parents have been married over 50 years and they're on opposite sides right now (politically). For the pandemic, they're on the same side but the politics surrounding it? Completely opposite.

Anyway, I'm not sure I'd call them an idiot but I don't know how I'd be able to trust or interact with them daily knowing their core values/beliefs are based in things disconnected from reality. Case in point, if my wife told me we weren't going to vaccinate our 15 year old, there would have been a problem.

[Carpet_pissr]

If my spouse refused to get vaccinated, putting my 10 year old at risk? Maybe not divorce, but probably separation until they hopefully came to their senses.

It would absolutely make me question if I wanted to be married to someone who thought that way considering the obvious crisis we are in (even if there wasn't an unvaccinated kid in the mix.)

[TheMix]

Have we loss the ability to interpret?

I feel confident that Grif is suggesting that the person in question has taken an idiotic stance on this one topic. I don't believe he's suggesting that the person is:

A person of profound mental retardation having a mental age below three years and generally unable to learn connected speech or guard against common dangers.

I have been called an idiot many times. I suspect my wife periodically thinks it. But I always understood that the comments were in reference to specific decisions/actions.

[Jaymann]

A bizarre aspect of this question is, had there been no covid none of the friction based on it would have come to light. Happily married couples would never have known there was an issue lurking that could divide them to the core. I wonder if there are any stats on divorce due to covid opinions.

[TheMix]

That's a good point. Along the lines of "would you still have broken the vase if I hadn't said anything?"

I wonder if the same could be said for Trump.

I vaguely remember my mom telling me that she voted D in some election, but didn't tell my dad because he was very much in the R camp. But with Trump, and how openly vocal everything became, I wonder how many families suddenly discovered that they were way more opposed than previously thought.