Our political system can't solve problems anymore

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by malchior »

The failure of the Founding fathers

Max Boot if all people just wrote a fantastic piece that correctly IMO points out the design flaws inherent to our constitutional system. Well worth a read. I think he hits all he right notes and he is (was is probably more accurate) a neo-con!
More than 660,000 Americans have already died of covid-19 — more than in any other country — and another 100,000 may perish by Dec. 1. How is this possible when we have enough vaccine doses for the whole population? The problem is that nearly 80 million eligible Americans stubbornly, stupidly refuse to get vaccinated — and there is almost no way to force them to do the right thing. With just 63 percent of the U.S. population having received at least one dose, we now lag behind every Group of Seven country in vaccination rates. We have even fallen behind countries such as Brazil, Mongolia and Cambodia, which are nowhere near as wealthy.

President Biden has said repeatedly that he believes that the onus is on the United States to show that democracy can work better than autocracy. But that’s not quite right. Other developed democracies work just fine. It’s not a question of democracy vs. autocracy. It’s more a question of the United States vs. the rest of the democratic world. Look at Canada: Its covid-19 death rate is one-third of ours and its vaccination rate is 12 percentage points higher. We have a uniquely dysfunctional political system — and it’s not clear that it can be fixed.

Our failure to manage the pandemic is of a piece with our failures to manage many other endemic ills. We have the weakest gun regulations among wealthy democracies and the highest level of gun violence. We are the only advanced democracy without universal health care — and our infant mortality rate is higher than in comparable countries. We have the weakest welfare state and the highest income inequality and poverty among G-7 countries. No wonder Europeans’ life expectancy is increasing while ours is declining.

Americans liked to think we live in an “exceptional” nation, but in recent years we have been exceptional primarily in the scale of our public-policy failures. Biden is doing his best to catch up, but our sclerotic political system may not allow him to achieve what other advanced democracies take for granted.

...

Why is it so much harder to enact sensible policies in the United States than in other democracies? Part of our problem is the flip side of our strengths: Love of liberty and distrust of authority run amok when a quarter of the eligible population will not accept lifesaving vaccines in the middle of a terrible pandemic.

We are also paying the price for a political system that was brilliantly designed for 1787 but has failed in 2021. In 1790, the largest state, Pennsylvania, had six times the population of the smallest, Rhode Island. Today, the largest state, California, has 68 times the population of the smallest, Wyoming. Yet California and Wyoming have the same number of U.S. senators.

...

Even when it’s possible to implement sensible initiatives in Washington — which these days increasingly means via executive order — the system of federalism enshrined in the Constitution allows extremists at the state level to go their own way. Biden reflects the views of the pro-choice majority in America, but Texas just effectively outlawed abortion — and a Supreme Court packed with Republican-appointed justices refused to intervene. Biden could never impose the kind of vaccine passports that are now required in Italy and France for entry into public places — and that have boosted their vaccination rates above ours.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41243
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by El Guapo »

I'm increasingly of the mind that we'll inevitably need a constitutional convention to essentially rewrite the rules of our political system to make it more workable. The biggest problem being that it's hard to imagine that happening until the political system fails in a way so obvious (most likely a decade plus of dictatorship) that it's undeniable to everyone.
Black Lives Matter.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by malchior »

That is where I am at as well. It'll either be a constitutional convention due to overwhelming protests, forced constitutional convention (by succession threats or low-level violence), or worst case something outside our constitutional system. I have almost zero confidence the system will self-correct at this point. An entire party has essentially gone off the rails in a mathematical 2-party system and it is being push-pulled by the base. This political instability isn't going away anytime soon.
User avatar
naednek
Posts: 10866
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:23 pm

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by naednek »

It rarely does.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

hepcat - "I agree with Naednek"
User avatar
Jaymon
Posts: 3006
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:51 pm

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Jaymon »

I believe it is due to our two party system. leadership for years has driven a wedge between "us and them" and for years has made it abundantly clear there is no viable third choice. Even here on our forum, we speak of "us and them" how one party has gone completely off the rails. Well that is clearly "them". On a different forum, "us and them" would be revered, and the folks of OO are the ones who have gone completely off the rails and are dragging the USA into the pits of chaos.

In my opinion, I don't think we need a constitutional convention. It would not accomplish anything, any more than the current government can accomplish anything. What we need is a viable third political party.
A third party would allow for a return to shifting alliances, power dynamics. A return to compromise. No one party could accomplish anything alone, all things would require compromise of some amount. it would no longer be Us vs Them. It would be Us and Them vs They, or Us and They vs Them. or Us vs Them and They
Bunnies like beer because its made from hops.
User avatar
Little Raven
Posts: 8608
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:26 am
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Little Raven »

I never thought I’d see the day when El Guapo went darkside. ;)

Personally, I’m with Jaymon. I don’t think a Constitutional Convention would fix anything, because the problem isn’t really with our government structure...it’s with us.

Americans are indeed exceptional, but not in the sense that we’re better (or worse) than anyone else. What’s exceptional about us is the scope of our democratic ambitions. If you look at the European countries that people like to compare us to, you will find that they are all much smaller than the United States. This is not an accident - when Europeans DO try to scale up to continent-wide institutions, they quickly run into all the same problems that we do on a daily basis. Democracy works best inside populations that are highly homogenous, and one of the easiest ways to achieve that is to keep the population fairly small. But with 330 million people and a nation that stretches from coast to coast, that isn’t really an option for us.

And size isn’t the only factor. Diversity also works against democracy - a highly diverse population is going to find it hard to agree on much of anything, and government paralysis is a likely result. This is why many large countries that have extensive experience with trying to get democracy to work, like France, go to some lengths to promote national universalism, because they recognize that racial or economic factions pose grave risks to democratic institutions. But that’s becoming impossible to maintain even in France, so you can imagine the futility of trying to pull it off here. Instead, we’ve tried to lean into our diversity, labeling it a strength, and to be fair in some ways it is...but it comes at the cost of making decision making very difficult.

Frankly, I can’t think of any other country that is remotely close to us in terms of size and diversity that also has a functioning democracy. India and Turkey are probably the closest...and as poorly as our government has fared lately, they have both done much, MUCH worse. It’s no accident that when people think of effective democratic government, the go to example is New Zealand, which is smaller than many American cities.

For us, I suspect, things will continue to get worse for quite some time, but I don’t think we’re going to see any dictatorships….just more and more paralysis and dysfunction until the next existential threat comes along. Fortunately, Americans always do the right thing in the end. Unfortunately, they have to try everything else first.
/. "She climbed backwards out her
\/ window into Outside Over There."
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41243
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by El Guapo »

Little Raven wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:42 am I never thought I’d see the day when El Guapo went darkside. ;)

Personally, I’m with Jaymon. I don’t think a Constitutional Convention would fix anything, because the problem isn’t really with our government structure...it’s with us.
That's not really true, though. Trump has never commanded majority support at any point. Hell, due to GOP primary rules he won most of his GOP nomination delegates through votes in the 25% - 45% range, and it's not like the 2016 GOP primary voters were a real bastion of sanity. If we had a political system that accurately translated the will of voters into outcomes, Trump would never have seen actual political power.

Similarly, the structure of the Senate is the main reason why we can't address a lot of big issues even when there are solutions that command 60% - 70%ish popular support. Because that popular support is translated through a system that requires the agreement of a smattering of rural states with 500K - 2 million people in them.

I don't mean to present electoral reform as some sort of a cure-all. It's just that the plague of Trumpism (and for that matter, McConnell-ism) is more the result of a political system that makes it electorally viable even when it can't come close to actual majority support.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19978
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Carpet_pissr »

I agree that it's more of a structural problem than a people problem. Chicken and egg and all that. I think the inflexibility of the archaic system (and the fact that it is sorely outdated for modern American demographics and geogpraphy) was a contributing factor in the divisiveness we are seeing at the "people" level now. And of course the bad behavior we see in our politicians. Not talking about the typical stuff (corruption, lies, etc), I am talking about the recent, "system-breaking" behaviors and talk that are in use, and apparently swelling in popularity.
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Holman »

The system, for all its archaism, could still function if compromise were actually possible. What makes compromise impossible isn't the Founders' naivete or even the two-party system; it's that the two camps of political America hate each other so deeply, and politicians are now elected as avatars of that hatred. Compromise is seen as betrayal.

It wasn't always this way. Even in our lifetimes a divided government could still get things done.

The mutual hatred is a cultural product. It doesn't stem organically from regional differences or the size of the population or its diversity. It's a manufactured effect of partisan media stoking specific narratives with the specific aim of creating division.

And just to state the obvious, the Right is *far* more responsible for this than the Left.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19978
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Dammit, Holman, your sound, efficiently stated argument is making me reconsider my position!
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Smoove_B »

Politics are now identity - they're a core, defining element of self in the US (for those engaged in the political process). It's not a set of guidelines or a broad camp that you identify with, it's a set of rules you must follow at all times. While they don't represent the majority of Americans, they do represent those that vote and so right now both sides are entrenched and I honestly don't see how it's ever going to change.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by malchior »

I totally agree with the idea this is a cultural problem but there is some cause to finally start to have a definitive opinion on the age old question where the design of the constitution is sound. This has been debated for ... pretty much the whole time this country has existed. There are the obvious cases for the idea it is flawed. It didn't forestall a civil war within the first 100 years. And less than 150 years later we are on the edge of something else bad. Well before and in the middle of those two periods there were very shaky times as well.

This design hasn't been a raging success. In fact, we're pretty much the only Presidential system with this design that hasn't had a military coup. While it's nice that hasn't happened we've now had multiple periods where there were real concerns about that too. In the end, there is no workable pressure relief to resolve intractable civil disputes and cultural issues.

And that leads to an inability to govern that is mostly rooted in both cases with the more "Republican" feature of the Senate and the President being elected separately. We have no mechanism to help heal the deep cultural issues. Instead, we have a system that incentivizes authoritarianism to break deadlocks. Which worsens the cultural issues. It's a big negative feedback cycle.
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Holman »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:47 pm Politics are now identity - they're a core, defining element of self in the US (for those engaged in the political process). It's not a set of guidelines or a broad camp that you identify with, it's a set of rules you must follow at all times. While they don't represent the majority of Americans, they do represent those that vote and so right now both sides are entrenched and I honestly don't see how it's ever going to change.
Well, one possibility is to wait for enough old white conservatives to die off. That seems to be happening faster than any rightward drift in the generation (ours) behind them.

Republicans are very aware of this, which is why they've opted to go all-in on anti-democracy. Democracy is a losing game for them.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
Alefroth
Posts: 8486
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Bellingham WA

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Alefroth »

Jaymon wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:55 am In my opinion, I don't think we need a constitutional convention. It would not accomplish anything, any more than the current government can accomplish anything. What we need is a viable third political party.
A third party would allow for a return to shifting alliances, power dynamics. A return to compromise. No one party could accomplish anything alone, all things would require compromise of some amount. it would no longer be Us vs Them. It would be Us and Them vs They, or Us and They vs Them. or Us vs Them and They
That's as good as doing nothing.

How do you suggest creating a viable third party? It clearly isn't happening organically.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41243
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by El Guapo »

Alefroth wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:19 pm
Jaymon wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:55 am In my opinion, I don't think we need a constitutional convention. It would not accomplish anything, any more than the current government can accomplish anything. What we need is a viable third political party.
A third party would allow for a return to shifting alliances, power dynamics. A return to compromise. No one party could accomplish anything alone, all things would require compromise of some amount. it would no longer be Us vs Them. It would be Us and Them vs They, or Us and They vs Them. or Us vs Them and They
That's as good as doing nothing.

How do you suggest creating a viable third party? It clearly isn't happening organically.
You can't create a viable third party under current election rules, because any third party penalizes the existing party closest to the beliefs of the new third party. That could be fixed without a constitutional convention (most easily by ranked choice voting) though if you wanted to make that a more permanent situation you might need to at least amend the constitution.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26376
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Unagi »

Honestly, I think if everyone in government was a (D)emocrat, it would feel like we had more than a 2 party system.... The other 'parties' are the democratic party. It's why they don't ever act in unison and why they often undermine one another. They aren't "a party".


I'm not sure how accurate that is, but I felt like saying it.
User avatar
Alefroth
Posts: 8486
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Bellingham WA

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Alefroth »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:24 pm
Alefroth wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:19 pm
Jaymon wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:55 am In my opinion, I don't think we need a constitutional convention. It would not accomplish anything, any more than the current government can accomplish anything. What we need is a viable third political party.
A third party would allow for a return to shifting alliances, power dynamics. A return to compromise. No one party could accomplish anything alone, all things would require compromise of some amount. it would no longer be Us vs Them. It would be Us and Them vs They, or Us and They vs Them. or Us vs Them and They
That's as good as doing nothing.

How do you suggest creating a viable third party? It clearly isn't happening organically.
You can't create a viable third party under current election rules, because any third party penalizes the existing party closest to the beliefs of the new third party. That could be fixed without a constitutional convention (most easily by ranked choice voting) though if you wanted to make that a more permanent situation you might need to at least amend the constitution.
It'll definitely take intervention of some sort. What are the obstacles to enacting ranked-choice voting?
Last edited by Alefroth on Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Alefroth
Posts: 8486
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Bellingham WA

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Alefroth »

Unagi wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:37 pm Honestly, I think if everyone in government was a (D)emocrat, it would feel like we had more than a 2 party system.... The other 'parties' are the democratic party. It's why they don't ever act in unison and why they often undermine one another. They aren't "a party".


I'm not sure how accurate that is, but I felt like saying it.
A Vox article I just read on ranked-choice voting made the same claim, but didn't limit it to the Democratic party.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by malchior »

The limitations are state by state. Some might have laws that'd have to be changed and others might have constitutional issues. NYC just ran their primaries using ranked choice voting and there were some hiccups. Still it was positively reviewed by many voters but that still only was a set up to a first past the post election.
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19978
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Carpet_pissr »

The problem with trying to get ANYthing meaningful done to repair the system or overhaul it, is that it will fail in the current atmosphere. If we can politicize a damn virus, imagine the sides that would be taken on something that would potentially block what the right is trying to do? Any way you spin it "let's fix our broken system!" or "let's update the Constitution to reflect modern America!" or WHATEVER...would be construed as an attack, direct or indirect, on the current motives in play. That will not do.
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Holman »

Unagi wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:37 pm Honestly, I think if everyone in government was a (D)emocrat, it would feel like we had more than a 2 party system.... The other 'parties' are the democratic party. It's why they don't ever act in unison and why they often undermine one another. They aren't "a party".
The Dems are a big-tent coalition while the GOP is a purity cult. The latter supports largely unpopular policies but benefits from the structure of the Electoral College and the Senate.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Kraken »

Unagi wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:37 pm Honestly, I think if everyone in government was a (D)emocrat, it would feel like we had more than a 2 party system.... The other 'parties' are the democratic party. It's why they don't ever act in unison and why they often undermine one another. They aren't "a party".


I'm not sure how accurate that is, but I felt like saying it.
Boston's mayoral primary was today. The top two vote-getters will go head-to-head in November. Thing is, the R Party is vestigial in Mass., and especially in Boston, so they didn't even field any candidates. It's going to be Dem vs. Dem regardless of who wins today, and the candidates are all on a spectrum from liberal to progressive.

Generally speaking, one-party systems tend to become insular and corrupt. This is why we're in the habit of hiring R governors. They help to keep the legislature honest.
User avatar
Kasey Chang
Posts: 20750
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:20 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Kasey Chang »

The problem, IMHO, is when the party forgot it's supposed to serve the people, not keep itself in power and/or attempt to regain power. GOP elected Trump because he's popular, not because he can get things done.

And GOP now exists ONLY to fight Dems turning EVERYTHING into wedge issues, no matter the cost to the citizens or the economy.

DeSantis / Abbott: You want freedom? I'll give you freedom! (to kill yourselves with COVID!) I'll PREVENT schools from mask mandates in the name of protecting parents' rights! Doesn't matter if COVID rages in schools again! Doesn't matter if economy tanks, as long as we win the next election!
My game FAQs | Playing: She Will Punish Them, Sunrider: Mask of Arcadius, The Outer Worlds
User avatar
Kasey Chang
Posts: 20750
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:20 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Kasey Chang »

LA Times put it very succinctly:
Republicans have positioned themselves as the party of personal freedom. In doing so, they’ve allowed Democrats to occupy the ground of protectors of public safety. So long as a large majority of voters feel that the pandemic threatens their health and their children’s, that’s not an even fight.
My game FAQs | Playing: She Will Punish Them, Sunrider: Mask of Arcadius, The Outer Worlds
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19978
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Succinctly, and naively IMO. We haven’t exactly seen election blowouts during the pandemic. Usually razor thin margins.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by malchior »

IMO I think the LA Times is just another media outlet trying to gin up a story. Everyone keeps trying to extrapolate far too much from this recall. Newsom is in a heavy D state and won the recall by similar margins to his election. Any read on the national mood or trying to make it a bigger deal is simple wishcasting or as Carpet_pissr said naïve.
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19978
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Carpet_pissr »

To be fair, it’s the LA Times reporting on a California-centric story so they get a pass.

That most non-CA news outlets are breathlessly trying to sell it as some meaningful story for the rest of the country is just modern media doin’ what they do these days (sadly).

Edit: yup, what Malchior said. :D
Drazzil
Posts: 4723
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:54 pm

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Drazzil »

So if our political system can't solve problems, and it seems to be lurching rightward with every jerrymandered election, and won't respond to efforts to change it, what good is it? How do we change things if the system won't allow itself to be changed from the inside or outside? What do we need to change this situation?
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19978
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Meet at the Capitol and riot?
Drazzil
Posts: 4723
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:54 pm

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Drazzil »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:26 pm Meet at the Capitol and riot?
Never said that. What else can we come up with? Violence being off the table.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
Drazzil
Posts: 4723
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:54 pm

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Drazzil »

Holman wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:09 pm The system, for all its archaism, could still function if compromise were actually possible. What makes compromise impossible isn't the Founders' naivete or even the two-party system; it's that the two camps of political America hate each other so deeply, and politicians are now elected as avatars of that hatred. Compromise is seen as betrayal.

It wasn't always this way. Even in our lifetimes a divided government could still get things done.

The mutual hatred is a cultural product. It doesn't stem organically from regional differences or the size of the population or its diversity. It's a manufactured effect of partisan media stoking specific narratives with the specific aim of creating division.

And just to state the obvious, the Right is *far* more responsible for this than the Left.
How has this worked out if only the Democrats compromise? How do we change this?
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16433
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Zarathud »

It’s not just the refusal to compromise. The Republicans no longer believe in the public good. They only believe in short term political advantage.

That mindset is destructive to society and the GOP has taken extreme steps to insulate themselves from the consequences of bad policy.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
Drazzil
Posts: 4723
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:54 pm

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Drazzil »

Zarathud wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:44 pm It’s not just the refusal to compromise. The Republicans no longer believe in the public good. They only believe in short term political advantage.

That mindset is destructive to society and the GOP has taken extreme steps to insulate themselves from the consequences of bad policy.
Neither party believes in the public good anymore. That's the secret that the two parties both have the same puppetmasters. They come from the same class, want the same things, and based on how they deal (or not) with the filibuster and the for the people act, have already come to an agreement to sell us out.

Democrats: We couldn't give you M4A or a Green New Deal or an Infrastructure plan, or get rid of the Filibuster because of the Republicans!! Because of Joe Manchin and Christian Sienma!

Every two years or four the Democrats come hat in hand with a barrelful of excuses of why we should vote for them to keep the Republicans out, and I and many others fall for it, in the name of the greater good, blue no matter who. To keep this sclerotic misery machine chugging. All because performatively, the Democrats are SLIGHTLY better then the Republicans
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Kraken »

Drazzil wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:29 pm
Zarathud wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:44 pm It’s not just the refusal to compromise. The Republicans no longer believe in the public good. They only believe in short term political advantage.

That mindset is destructive to society and the GOP has taken extreme steps to insulate themselves from the consequences of bad policy.
Neither party believes in the public good anymore.
Let's see, what are the Dems trying to pass *right now*?

Universal pre-K
Expanded child care
Paid family and medical leave
Free community college for two years
Increasing Pell grants for going beyond that
Extend the child tax credit that's already cut poverty by more than half
Expand Medicare to include dental, vision, and hearing
Expand subsidies for Obamacare
In-home and community services for the elderly
Many mechanisms to combat climate change, the most visible being a Civilian Conservation Corps.

...and the wealthy and corporations are going to pay for it.

We must have different ideas of what the public good is.
Drazzil
Posts: 4723
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:54 pm

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Drazzil »

Kraken wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:31 pm
Drazzil wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:29 pm
Zarathud wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:44 pm It’s not just the refusal to compromise. The Republicans no longer believe in the public good. They only believe in short term political advantage.

That mindset is destructive to society and the GOP has taken extreme steps to insulate themselves from the consequences of bad policy.
Neither party believes in the public good anymore.
Let's see, what are the Dems trying to pass *right now*?

Universal pre-K
Expanded child care
Paid family and medical leave
Free community college for two years
Increasing Pell grants for going beyond that
Extend the child tax credit that's already cut poverty by more than half
Expand Medicare to include dental, vision, and hearing
Expand subsidies for Obamacare
In-home and community services for the elderly
Many mechanisms to combat climate change, the most visible being a Civilian Conservation Corps.

...and the wealthy and corporations are going to pay for it.

We must have different ideas of what the public good is.
You can offer whatever it is people want to hear if you know that your buddy'll never go for it.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16433
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Zarathud »

If you can’t see the Democrats would do more if they had more votes, you’re clueless, Drazzil.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
Drazzil
Posts: 4723
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:54 pm

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Drazzil »

Zarathud wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:44 pm If you can’t see the Democrats would do more if they had more votes, you’re clueless, Drazzil.
Am I? If Kristen Scienema and Joe Manchkin were not opposed to everything the Dem's are "trying" to do, how many other Democrats would develop "concerns" about the Dem's supposed agenda?
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16433
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Zarathud »

Politics is about politicking and negotiations.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26376
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Unagi »

Drazzil wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:39 pm You can offer whatever it is people want to hear if you know that your buddy'll never go for it.
After the whole thing is burned down, does the above stop being true? Do any of the big-uglies of the world cease to exist? You pretend this is like a overgrown forest, and if we just burn it all down, beautiful young pure saplings will sprout from the ashes.

You speak of "your idea".... is your entire idea: Burn it down?
User avatar
Alefroth
Posts: 8486
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Bellingham WA

Re: Our political system can't solve problems anymore

Post by Alefroth »

Drazzil wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:49 pm
Zarathud wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:44 pm If you can’t see the Democrats would do more if they had more votes, you’re clueless, Drazzil.
Am I? If Kristen Scienema and Joe Manchkin were not opposed to everything the Dem's are "trying" to do, how many other Democrats would develop "concerns" about the Dem's supposed agenda?
Ooh ooh, I know. None.
Post Reply