Game of Thrones - House of the Dragon [HBO]

[Jaymann]

Allegedly Cole had to turn in his man card.

[Carpet_pissr]

Re: the Cole stuff

Spoiler:

Yeah the Cole stuff I'm honestly confused about what's so confusing about that. Last episode it was really clear that Cole was done with Rhaenyra and moving towards Alicent. Cole was and is a man of honor who takes his vows seriously. He could live with what he did with Rhaenyra if it was for love (hence the marriage proposal), but when Rhaenyra both rebuffs that and makes clear that she's fine with continuing to bang him on the side, he *really* doesn't like that ("you want me to be your whore???").

The stuff with Alicent is almost all off-screen during the 10 year time jump. But we do (last episode) see her stop Cole from killing himself, so he owes her his life to start. And more than that, if Cole hates Rhaenyra then Alicent is a natural ally, since: (1) Alicent and Rhaenyra hate each other; (2) Alicent, unlike Rhaenyra, is, you know, not a whore; (3) Alicent at least cares about honor and decency in a way that Rhaenyra doesn't.

That said, with both the Cole stuff and the Daemon stuff, and a few other different ways, the show is limited to some degree by the time jumps. They may have been necessary given the time frames involved (I guess the only alternative would be to start where this episode is and then include a lot of expository back story) but it has limited the show's ability to give full depth to a lot of the show's events.

Are we done with time jumps, by the way? Hopefully so.

Aside from the fact that Ser Criston Cole seems not have aged a day during the 10-year time jump...

Ha! We noticed the same thing. Literally everyone else on the show aged…but him. Must have been in the actor’s contract.

[El Guapo]

Re: the Cole stuff

Spoiler:

Yeah the Cole stuff I'm honestly confused about what's so confusing about that. Last episode it was really clear that Cole was done with Rhaenyra and moving towards Alicent. Cole was and is a man of honor who takes his vows seriously. He could live with what he did with Rhaenyra if it was for love (hence the marriage proposal), but when Rhaenyra both rebuffs that and makes clear that she's fine with continuing to bang him on the side, he *really* doesn't like that ("you want me to be your whore???").

The stuff with Alicent is almost all off-screen during the 10 year time jump. But we do (last episode) see her stop Cole from killing himself, so he owes her his life to start. And more than that, if Cole hates Rhaenyra then Alicent is a natural ally, since: (1) Alicent and Rhaenyra hate each other; (2) Alicent, unlike Rhaenyra, is, you know, not a whore; (3) Alicent at least cares about honor and decency in a way that Rhaenyra doesn't.

That said, with both the Cole stuff and the Daemon stuff, and a few other different ways, the show is limited to some degree by the time jumps. They may have been necessary given the time frames involved (I guess the only alternative would be to start where this episode is and then include a lot of expository back story) but it has limited the show's ability to give full depth to a lot of the show's events.

Are we done with time jumps, by the way? Hopefully so.

Aside from the fact that Ser Criston Cole seems not have aged a day during the 10-year time jump...

Spoiler:

How is he still a member of the Kingsguard after brutally murdering a friend/courtier of Laenor--consort to the heir to the throne--at the wedding in front of everyone and with *absolutely no apparent justification*?

Surely this is the sort of thing that can't be overlooked. If not execution, at least exile to the Night's Watch?

It was made very clear that Cole has no powerful family behind him, so his only patron was the Queen, but she never even expressed any interest in him until his attempted hari-kari.

So far there has not been any mention that all this cost anyone anything.

Yeah, that is a good question. You figure Alicent had a lot to do with that, but even so there would need to be some explanation / clarification, especially since going from guarding the princess to guarding the Queen post-murder would if anything be a promotion of sorts. The argument would have to be something like that the victim attacked / provoked Cole (IIRC the guy I think had a knife?).

There should be some explanation provided, though the 10 year time jump does make that somewhat awkward. "Hey guys, remember the time that Cole murdered that guy 10 years ago, but then we all decided not to punish him because [reasons]? Man that was wild."

[Blackhawk]

It wouldn't have to be that complicated.

It was made very clear that Cole has no powerful family behind him, so his only patron was the Queen, but she never even expressed any interest in him until his attempted hari-kari.

After the point at which it happened (and she saw a chance to get back at Rhaenyra), his patron was the queen. All she had to say was that punchy-face had delivered her some deadly, unforgivable threat/insult, and that Sir Cole had overheard and defended her honor. Oh, and by way of thanks, he's now her personal protector.

Who is going to call the queen a liar? Especially with Sir Punchalot standing nearby.

[msteelers]

It wouldn't have to be that complicated.

It was made very clear that Cole has no powerful family behind him, so his only patron was the Queen, but she never even expressed any interest in him until his attempted hari-kari.

After the point at which it happened (and she saw a chance to get back at Rhaenyra), his patron was the queen. All she had to say was that punchy-face had delivered her some deadly, unforgivable threat/insult, and that Sir Cole had overheard and defended her honor. Oh, and by way of thanks, he's now her personal protector.

Who is going to call the queen a liar? Especially with Sir Punchalot standing nearby.

Exactly. And, everyone in the room saw Joffrey pull a knife on Cole. With the Queen backing him, and neither Rhaenyra or Laenor able to risk pushing back on the public narrative, I think it makes sense why he's still around.

[Holman]

I just can't see any excuse that works. It was the brutal killing of a member of the groom's party in front of everyone. Unless Cole has an extraordinary and immediately compelling explanation, it was a huge insult to the entire royal family.

It would have been better for the killing to have taken place in private. At the very least, we wouldn't have the awkward question "Why is this character still here?"

[hepcat]

It may have been the family downplaying the character’s association with the family in order to avoid the scandal of their son being gay getting out….not that there’s anything wrong with that. They may have just going along with some lie that the victim started it/did something that necessitated the attack in light of that.

[ImLawBoy]

They really should have given us a quick scene explaining it away - stress that he claimed that guy pulled a knife and threatened the queen and so he was just doing his duty. Why leave it to the audience to speculate?

Anyway, I'm also fine with speculating that something like that went down and moving on. It's a relatively minor flaw in the grand scheme of things.

[Carpet_pissr]

I must have been dozing before that fight broke out. All I remember was seeing some kind of scrum in the middle of the crowd from maybe the perspective of the throne - quite far away..then after a long while, they zoomed in at fight level and showed the kill. I didn't see ANYthing that showed who instigated it, or knife wielding, etc. Do I need to go back and watch that, or was it intentionally unclear as I am describing it?

[Jaymann]

I must have been dozing before that fight broke out. All I remember was seeing some kind of scrum in the middle of the crowd from maybe the perspective of the throne - quite far away..then after a long while, they zoomed in at fight level and showed the kill. I didn't see ANYthing that showed who instigated it, or knife wielding, etc. Do I need to go back and watch that, or was it intentionally unclear as I am describing it?

Spoiler:

The gay guy was taunting Cole for some reason and Cole over reacted.

[Carpet_pissr]

I must have been dozing before that fight broke out. All I remember was seeing some kind of scrum in the middle of the crowd from maybe the perspective of the throne - quite far away..then after a long while, they zoomed in at fight level and showed the kill. I didn't see ANYthing that showed who instigated it, or knife wielding, etc. Do I need to go back and watch that, or was it intentionally unclear as I am describing it?

Spoiler:

The gay guy was taunting Cole for some reason and Cole over reacted.

OK, thanks, I definitely did not see that. I saw him TALKING to him, a bit prior to the fight though. Explains my "well that escalated quickly!" reaction.

[Holman]

I must have been dozing before that fight broke out. All I remember was seeing some kind of scrum in the middle of the crowd from maybe the perspective of the throne - quite far away..then after a long while, they zoomed in at fight level and showed the kill. I didn't see ANYthing that showed who instigated it, or knife wielding, etc. Do I need to go back and watch that, or was it intentionally unclear as I am describing it?

Spoiler:

The gay guy was taunting Cole for some reason and Cole over reacted.

Spoiler:

Was it even taunting? IIRC, he was simply commenting that the two of them both had unofficial illicit relationships that could continue without consequence since everyone understood the terms. Cole had no cause for offense beyond strict official morality (which he himself had already violated).

[Jaymann]

Well he definitely struck a nerve.

[hepcat]

While they were on the SS Incest, he had furiously announced he wouldn’t be the queen’s whore when Princess Feral Kid told him they could continue bumping uglies after her marriage. I think that nerve was well exposed by the time the wedding party rolled around. Dude was a ticking time bomb.

[Blackhawk]

I just can't see any excuse that works. It was the brutal killing of a member of the groom's party in front of everyone. Unless Cole has an extraordinary and immediately compelling explanation, it was a huge insult to the entire royal family.

Which mostly consists of an heiress who can't speak a word about it, an incompetent and sick (possibly incapacitated) king, and the queen. The queen who decided to keep him alive.

There is no Westerosi Magna Carta. What the royalty says becomes reality.

[Holman]

I just can't see any excuse that works. It was the brutal killing of a member of the groom's party in front of everyone. Unless Cole has an extraordinary and immediately compelling explanation, it was a huge insult to the entire royal family.

Which mostly consists of an heiress who can't speak a word about it, an incompetent and sick (possibly incapacitated) king, and the queen. The queen who decided to keep him alive.

There is no Westerosi Magna Carta. What the royalty says becomes reality.

A landless bodyguard brutally and publicly murders a high-ranking member of the royal wedding party for no apparent reason.

The crime offends the Princess-heir, her husband-to-be, and both royal families. Its disruption of the wedding celebrations is an offense to the king himself.

Later we learn that the Queen forgives the killer, but... why? There wasn't much character-relationship developed between them before the crime occurred. What strengths does he bring to the connection that would make her spend that much political capital on his rehabilitation?

I'm just trying to think like GRRM here.

[Blackhawk]

A landless bodyguard brutally and publicly murders a high-ranking member of the royal wedding party for no apparent reason.

The queen can say there was a reason. She simply says that the person in question insulted/threatened her. Nobody is going to question the queen or ask for evidence. She says it, it happened.

The crime offends the Princess-heir, her husband-to-be, and both royal families. Its disruption of the wedding celebrations is an offense to the king himself.

In order: Can't talk about the truth, can't talk about the truth, one can't talk about the truth, the other consists (at this point) of three people. One is the aforementioned heir. One is incompetent and likely unconscious. The last probably thinks it's good for a laugh.

Later we learn that the Queen forgives the killer, but... why? There wasn't much character-relationship developed between them before the crime occurred. What strengths does he bring to the connection that would make her spend that much political capital on his rehabilitation?

There was none. Zero. Prior relationships had nothing to do with it. The Queen put herself on the line to back up her best friend who (who was already treating her poorly) swore to her that the Big Controversy never happened. She went to bat for her 'friend.' She then found, right before the feast, that the person she thought was her closest friend had betrayed her and made a fool of her. She then discovered she'd been bonking Sir Punchalot. She was pissed, and she was vindictive.

Sir Punchalot is a weapon, and I don't mean his fists. He's also an ace-in-the-hole to hurt and discredit her, and he's blackmail if she's competent enough to use it (although I think she's more petty than that - hence Littlefinger Junior to help her play her cards.)

He's not a rescue, he's revenge.

I'm just trying to think like GRRM here.

[msteelers]

Plus, the Queen was in ally building mode. And she just picked up arguably the greatest fighter in Kings Landing.

[Jaymann]

I can't keep track of all the little princes, so I don't bother to try. One of the younger ones gets it right with: "If I am the lord of Driftmark, it means everyone is dead." So I will take note when somebody ascends to the throne.

[Smoove_B]

If you didn't like or had issues with dark (as in lighting) episodes, last night had maximum dark filter applied for significant stretches. It's extra annoying because it was very clearly daylight but they used filters to make it look like dusk. I guess when you're on a schedule you need to make choices, but they must have been trying to film at high noon because they really obscured the look. Like others, I watch the show in a pitch black room and it was still hard to follow for some of the scenes.

Didn't really enjoy the episode that much overall. Important things happened but in terms of story it was meh. Felt more like they were hitting checkboxes for plot elements that needed to occur.

[Sudy]

Season 1, Episode 7 is the first uniformly excellent episode in the series. In the same way that the show's characters scramble to forge their legacies, the show has begun to deliver on its own. The characters are beginning to take on the dimensions of real people, and this episode uplifts them all in interesting ways. I'm beginning to see the story I think the writers want to tell, and I'm starting to understand the reason for its routinely criticized accelerated pace up to this point. We latched onto the prologue because it's all we had. (And I still think it was worthy of greater exploration, but having it last a full season wouldn't have been dynamic enough in this age of television.) In a way, I suspect HotD has shown us the history and inciting events of its story that GoT only spoke of in its opening season, and its future may be richer for it.

Spoiler:

- It's been so refreshing to have a king who's flawed but not ruthless. I wonder what GoT would have been like if Robert had lived longer. Honestly, Cersei's evil became exhausting as well explained as it was. But Viserys's reign seems nearly at its end, which strikes me as unfortunate because it provided the other characters so much more room to move. Though it's also obvious the show would languish under another season of his reign. Near the end of the episode I was concerned Rhaenyra's self-interest was leading her down the same path of brutality, but the twist shows a measure of compassion even if it's only secondary to her lust for power. (Though there was no compassion shown to the true possessor of the crispy body, but we already knew this world doesn't care about pleb lives.)

- "History does not remember blood, it remembers names" really adds dimension to Corlys's character and makes me far more interested in him.

- WTF, a non-explicit sex scene that actually made sense in the context of the story? You kind of wish Daemon had evolved beyond the point he'd let this happen, but we all knew we were headed here, and his wife's suicide laid a believable, nuanced groundwork for it.

- I'm still confused about how intelligent the dragons are. Vhagar's loyalty sure shifted easily. But the scene itself was excellent, as were the momentous developments it led to.

- Larys and Alicent are a great pairing, more so now that she's on board for shenanigans.

- Otto may be the show's most loathsome character in that he's outwardly reasonable, but his subtle manipulations have destroyed his daughter's virtue and innocence. His villainy is the most realistic of all.

[Sudy]

If you didn't like or had issues with dark (as in lighting) episodes, last night had maximum dark filter applied for significant stretches. It's extra annoying because it was very clearly daylight but they used filters to make it look like dusk. I guess when you're on a schedule you need to make choices, but they must have been trying to film at high noon because they really obscured the look. Like others, I watch the show in a pitch black room and it was still hard to follow for some of the scenes.

You're right, and I had the displeasure of watching it in the morning sun. But I adored the aesthetic... I think it was calculated, and the episode was better for it.

[hepcat]

They're calling this latest issue with dark scenes a "creative decision".

[Sudy]

The critics are being a bit dramatic.

[hepcat]

I'd like to subscribe to Apologists Weekly. Please send me the link.

[JCC]

Yeah the super invisible dark scenes did annoy me greatly. Having said that, the episode was fantastic. A welcome return after last week's clumsy, confusing jump forward in time. It's a great show.

[hepcat]

I'm going to watch it tonight, but I'll turn up the brightness to a ridiculous degree when I suddenly realize I'm watching a shadow in a coal mine.

[EvilHomer3k]

Season 1, Episode 7 is the first uniformly excellent episode in the series. In the same way that the show's characters scramble to forge their legacies, the show has begun to deliver on its own. The characters are beginning to take on the dimensions of real people, and this episode uplifts them all in interesting ways. I'm beginning to see the story I think the writers want to tell, and I'm starting to understand the reason for its routinely criticized accelerated pace up to this point. We latched onto the prologue because it's all we had. (And I still think it was worthy of greater exploration, but having it last a full season wouldn't have been dynamic enough in this age of television.) In a way, I suspect HotD has shown us the history and inciting events of its story that GoT only spoke of in its opening season, and its future may be richer for it.

Spoiler:

- It's been so refreshing to have a king who's flawed but not ruthless. I wonder what GoT would have been like if Robert had lived longer. Honestly, Cersei's evil became exhausting as well explained as it was. But Viserys's reign seems nearly at its end, which strikes me as unfortunate because it provided the other characters so much more room to move. Though it's also obvious the show would languish under another season of his reign. Near the end of the episode I was concerned Rhaenyra's self-interest was leading her down the same path of brutality, but the twist shows a measure of compassion even if it's only secondary to her lust for power. (Though there was no compassion shown to the true possessor of the crispy body, but we already knew this world doesn't care about pleb lives.)

- "History does not remember blood, it remembers names" really adds dimension to Corlys's character and makes me far more interested in him.

- WTF, a non-explicit sex scene that actually made sense in the context of the story? You kind of wish Daemon had evolved beyond the point he'd let this happen, but we all knew we were headed here, and his wife's suicide laid a believable, nuanced groundwork for it.

- I'm still confused about how intelligent the dragons are. Vhagar's loyalty sure shifted easily. But the scene itself was excellent, as were the momentous developments it led to.

- Larys and Alicent are a great pairing, more so now that she's on board for shenanigans.

- Otto may be the show's most loathsome character in that he's outwardly reasonable, but his subtle manipulations have destroyed his daughter's virtue and innocence. His villainy is the most realistic of all.

Agreed on all counts.

At this point I would think someone from HBO would just nix the whole creative lighting decisions thing. If everyone complains about it, they're not wrong (though they may be a bit hyperbolic).

[hepcat]

Turning up the brightness on HDR to max settings helped…for some of it. Of course, that’s not the proper setting by far, so the bunk they try to spin that folks complaining it’s too dark just don’t have properly calibrated televisions is demonstrably untrue.

Anyway, enjoyed it. Thoughts:

Spoiler:

I just wish Almond Targaryen didn’t look like Sloth in a wig after the eye thing.

Incest is back. So we’ve got that going for us.

Matt Smith is growing on me as something other than the Doctor, and his character has matured quite a bit. He no longer twirls his mustache while tying widows to train tracks. I mean, he still ties them to train tracks…but he’s shaved.

There was zero window wanking this episode, so “yay, us!”.

Criston almost redeemed himself with his response to Alicent when she demanded he take a child’s eye. Even he was shocked by the demand.

Oh hey, we know Valyrians aren’t fireproof now.

After watching that wedding ceremony, I’m convinced Angelina Jolie is a Targaryen.

[El Guapo]

I very much enjoyed that episode.

I will say that watching Aemond (if that's the right one) hanging off of Vhagar the dragon really made me question the physics of dragon riding. Which I probably should've been already given how fast they seem to be going but...honestly shouldn't they up the harnesses involved?

[Jaymann]

I very much enjoyed that episode.

I will say that watching Aemond (if that's the right one) hanging off of Vhagar the dragon really made me question the physics of dragon riding. Which I probably should've been already given how fast they seem to be going but...honestly shouldn't they up the harnesses involved?

My thought exactly. Also, why did none of the older dragon riders step up and say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa there little Cochise. I challenge you to a duel for dragon rights." With wooden swords of course.

[msteelers]

The episode was dark, but we could see everything that was happening just fine. I don’t think it was anywhere near as dark as the Long Night episode of GoT.

I thought the episode was excellent. The tension throughout was palpable.

[pr0ner]

Turning up the brightness on HDR to max settings helped…for some of it. Of course, that’s not the proper setting by far, so the bunk they try to spin that folks complaining it’s too dark just don’t have properly calibrated televisions is demonstrably untrue.

Anyway, enjoyed it. Thoughts:

I didn't have to adjust the settings on my TV to see everything clearly yet again.

Besides, adjusting the brightness (are you sure you mean brightness and not the backlight, which should always be set at maximum for HDR) doesn't actually make the picture brighter, it just washes out the image because you're just lightening up the black levels.

[hepcat]

I’m happy for you. But for many of us, it was too dark. Even with the suggested calibration settings from Rting.

[McNutt]

Definitely too dark. I really hated that it was an obvious filter used to make it dark.

Spoiler:

I LOVED the line "as your protector." Boom.

Why did the Hand act like the queen's reaction was a good thing? To me she put huge ass targets on her sons' heads. The king doesn't look like he's going to live much longer, so the new queen is going to start thinning the heard.

Maybe I'm slow, but who was the body burning in the fire? Was it the guy whose throat Daemon slit?

[El Guapo]

Definitely too dark. I really hated that it was an obvious filter used to make it dark.

Spoiler:

I LOVED the line "as your protector." Boom.

Why did the Hand act like the queen's reaction was a good thing? To me she put huge ass targets on her sons' heads. The king doesn't look like he's going to live much longer, so the new queen is going to start thinning the heard.

Maybe I'm slow, but who was the body burning in the fire? Was it the guy whose throat Daemon slit?

Spoiler:

As Otto described it, it's not that the Queen's actions were good or helpful for their cause. It's that she showed fire and determination, and that she's not a pushover. Basically she showed that she had the will to fight, which is good in the long run, even if her actions there were rash and shortsighted.

I don't know who the body was. Point was just that it wasn't Laenor (though everyone on the show thinks that it was) allowing Laenor and Boy Toy (Cole?) to go off to Essos and live an anonymous gay life together. Apparently I'm slow as at first I didn't pick up that the guy in the rowboat with Cole was Laenor with his hair shaved off.

[McNutt]

Isn't showing that you have the will to fight a very bad thing in her position? Either play nice or attack by surprise. But showing your hand is insane.

[El Guapo]

Isn't showing that you have the will to fight a very bad thing in her position? Either play nice or attack by surprise. But showing your hand is insane.

I don't know that she showed her hand. She and Rhaenyra were obviously both aware of each other before this as rival contenders to the throne.

[McNutt]

Rival contenders is not the same as sworn enemies. She knows she cannot allow the queen to live now.

[hepcat]

Definitely too dark. I really hated that it was an obvious filter used to make it dark.

Spoiler:

I LOVED the line "as your protector." Boom.

Why did the Hand act like the queen's reaction was a good thing? To me she put huge ass targets on her sons' heads. The king doesn't look like he's going to live much longer, so the new queen is going to start thinning the heard.

Maybe I'm slow, but who was the body burning in the fire? Was it the guy whose throat Daemon slit?

Spoiler:

As Otto described it, it's not that the Queen's actions were good or helpful for their cause. It's that she showed fire and determination, and that she's not a pushover. Basically she showed that she had the will to fight, which is good in the long run, even if her actions there were rash and shortsighted.

I don't know who the body was. Point was just that it wasn't Laenor (though everyone on the show thinks that it was) allowing Laenor and Boy Toy (Cole?) to go off to Essos and live an anonymous gay life together. Apparently I'm slow as at first I didn't pick up that the guy in the rowboat with Cole was Laenor with his hair shaved off.

On your first point

Spoiler:

It was because she showed that she could be forceful...but more that she could show such anger towards someone who had been a childhood friend. Someone she'd always been reluctant to truly see as an enemy. Otto knows she now does, so he's happy.

As for your second item, I had no idea either who that was supposed to be in the boat! That changes my view somewhat on the character who initiated the action that led to that scene.

Guess next time I should turn the brightness up even higher.