Game of Thrones - House of the Dragon [HBO]

[Jaymann]

Sure you can: The guy with the white hair killed the other guy with white hair. In the dark.

[El Guapo]

Thinking about this some more. What's the relevance of the bastardy of Rhaenyra's sons with respect to the immediate succession crisis? Viserys named Rhaenyra as his heir, and the great houses swore allegiance to her. Even if it were officially accepted that Rhaenyra's kids were bastards, that wouldn't invalidate Rhaenyra inheriting the iron throne, right? The issue there would be that (unless legitimized) her kids presumably couldn't inherit the iron throne. But Rhaenyra now has at least one son through Daemon whose legitimacy is as far as we can tell unchallenged.

So doesn't the bastardy only impact whether Rhaenyra's eldest child vs. her eldest child with Daemon inherits after her?

Obviously the whole "Viserys told me on his deathbed that he wanted my son Aegon to be his heir after all" stuff that Alicent's about to pull is a whole separate thing, but thinking about it it's a little funny that the whole bastardy scandal has been at the center of the succession dispute when it seems like it should be irrelevant for now?

[ImLawBoy]

She would then have to admit that the Strong boys were bastards and that she's been lying to everyone, including the King. Given that it's already a dicey enough proposition to have a woman sit the Iron Throne, add in that she's a liar (and promiscuous to boot!) and it's probably not very likely that she'd be accepted as ruler.

[Jaymann]

It might be relevant to the bastards.

[El Guapo]

She would then have to admit that the Strong boys were bastards and that she's been lying to everyone, including the King. Given that it's already a dicey enough proposition to have a woman sit the Iron Throne, add in that she's a liar (and promiscuous to boot!) and it's probably not very likely that she'd be accepted as ruler.

I'm not saying that she should admit that they're bastards. Just that it's irrelevant to her right to inherit the iron throne.

[McNutt]

There would be a lot of people challenging her if she were to take the throne with that over her head. It could easily lead to civil war as various people try to usurp her.

[ImLawBoy]

Well, you did ask:

So doesn't the bastardy only impact whether Rhaenyra's eldest child vs. her eldest child with Daemon inherits after her?

That seems to me to suggest that who inherits from Rhaenyra has some role in her claim. Otherwise, whether or not she had any children at all would be irrelevant to her claim because if she died without children, succession would likely pass to Aegon when she died since he's the next oldest living child of Viserys.

[El Guapo]

Well, you did ask:

So doesn't the bastardy only impact whether Rhaenyra's eldest child vs. her eldest child with Daemon inherits after her?

That seems to me to suggest that who inherits from Rhaenyra has some role in her claim. Otherwise, whether or not she had any children at all would be irrelevant to her claim because if she died without children, succession would likely pass to Aegon when she died since he's the next oldest living child of Viserys.

If she had no legitimate heirs, that could cast a pall over her succession. But she clearly does even if one concludes that the "Strong" ones are bastards.

[ImLawBoy]

Well, you did ask:

So doesn't the bastardy only impact whether Rhaenyra's eldest child vs. her eldest child with Daemon inherits after her?

That seems to me to suggest that who inherits from Rhaenyra has some role in her claim. Otherwise, whether or not she had any children at all would be irrelevant to her claim because if she died without children, succession would likely pass to Aegon when she died since he's the next oldest living child of Viserys.

If she had no legitimate heirs, that could cast a pall over her succession. But she clearly does even if one concludes that the "Strong" ones are bastards.

But clearing up the succession then would essentially be admitting the bastardy of the Strong kids.

[El Guapo]

Well, you did ask:

So doesn't the bastardy only impact whether Rhaenyra's eldest child vs. her eldest child with Daemon inherits after her?

That seems to me to suggest that who inherits from Rhaenyra has some role in her claim. Otherwise, whether or not she had any children at all would be irrelevant to her claim because if she died without children, succession would likely pass to Aegon when she died since he's the next oldest living child of Viserys.

If she had no legitimate heirs, that could cast a pall over her succession. But she clearly does even if one concludes that the "Strong" ones are bastards.

But clearing up the succession then would essentially be admitting the bastardy of the Strong kids.

She wouldn't have to. Her position throughout would be that all her kids are legitimate and that the heir is the eldest of all of them. Point is that it seems like the potential succession crisis should be when she dies, not when her father dies.

[Holman]

Thinking about this some more. What's the relevance of the bastardy of Rhaenyra's sons with respect to the immediate succession crisis?

The succession crisis they were debating wasn't the Iron Throne but the Driftwood throne.

With Corlys (head of House Velaryon) dead or dying at sea, the seat at Driftmark (and the headship of the House) should pass (through Rhaneyra's Velaryon husband who is thought to be dead but isn't) to the older of the bastard princes.

That's why Velaryon-guy-who-keeps-his-tongue made the accusation. The seat and headship of his house were passing to a bastard.

(...At least, I think I have this right.)

[ImLawBoy]

Yeah, there are two potential succession crises, but I think he's referring to the Iron Throne. And the issue with the Iron Throne is less at this point about the parentage of her boys than it is her lack of a penis. So the immediate question is whether or not Rhaenyra or Aegon should take the throne. Viserys named Rhaenyra, but Westeros society has never had a woman ruler and tradition would have the throne go to Aegon. The parentage of the Strong boys doesn't have a direct impact on this, but I think it likely makes some houses more likely to support Aegon's claim because they find her untrustworthy. (Aegon, of course, is his own little asshole, but the Lords of Westeros are used to male assholes.)

[Hrothgar]

I'm reading Fire and Blood right now, but I haven't gotten to the Dance of the Dragons yet.

But we know from Game of Thrones (spoilered just in case):

Spoiler:

The Dance of the Dragons is a bloody (or perhaps crispy depending on which side of the dragon you're on) civil war.

It seems like we have everything in place to kick that off. We have two clearly defined factions with a claim to the throne. We have strong and ruthless leaders on each side. Now the King is dead.

I'm guessing we won't have any more major time jumps once the war kicks off.

Regardless, it's the Game of Thrones. I wouldn't get too attached to any character.

[JCC]

Fantastic episode this week. Excited to see the finale next week.

[EvilHomer3k]

Fantastic episode this week. Excited to see the finale next week.

Easily the best episode so far.

Spoiler:

Sir Cristan Cole certainly seems to favor the nuclear option. But his impression of John Wick (using a marble rather than a pencil) wasn't even the biggest holy shit moment of the episode. Hint: It involves feet.

[Smoove_B]

That ending was something!

Spoiler:

Sir Cristan Cole certainly seems to favor the nuclear option. But his impression of John Wick (using a marble rather than a pencil) wasn't even the biggest holy shit moment of the episode. Hint: It involves feet.

Incest? No problem. But the collective internet seems to be aghast as your spoiler! I think Rick and Morty have normalized things.

Regardless, I wasn't expecting it either. It was odd and considering the spectrum of things covered in the GoT universe, it still managed to be really, really uncomfortable. I continue to think this show is better than I was hoping it would be. I think they've definitely carved themselves out as a quality production.

[hepcat]

What I found surprising was the first half hour of the show and its obvious homage to Weekend at Bernie’s. The montage of Criston and Serr Harold taking the body of the king on an extended tour of the bars of King’s Landing, only to end it all with a skiing competition after Criston picked a fight in the wrong tavern, was inspired.

[Holman]

At this point I'm rooting for Aemond One-Eye, if only because he pointed out (during the search with Ser Criston) that he's the only candidate for the throne who reads history and philosophy. I approve of university students.

Aegon II can hang.

[McNutt]

I'm expecting great things from one eye. I like that character a lot.

For the life of me I can't remember who in the hell the twins are. And did one die?

[hepcat]

Okay, watched it (for real this time).

Spoiler:

The foot fetish scene? Pointless and stupid. I rolled my eyes so hard at that scene I saw the back of my cranium. Christ that was dumb.

Giant dragon from the deep? Cool, but made zero sense. If she’s angry enough to kill off dozens of innocent people in order to show her hatred of the new administration, why wouldn’t she just kill them then and there?

Introducing kid fighting at the 11th hour to make us hate Targaryen Bon Jovi even more was a move worthy of the writers from Sons of Anarchy.

…that’s not a compliment.

All those complaints aside, I still enjoyed some of it. Alicent trying to find her voice in the face of an all male chorus of deceit. The younger brother of the new king (seriously, I’m done trying to remember these names) and his ability to wring sympathy out of me even after his shitty behavior in the episode only 38 percent of viewers were able to actually see. Princess dragon whatshername’s utter look of contempt and hate before riding off into the sunset after weirdly choosing not to actually kill the people who she feels contempt and hatred for. There’s some good stuff going on. But it’s getting bogged down by some mystifying attempts to be shocking or edgy.

[McNutt]

Yeah, not sure why she wouldn't end it then and there. Like zero clue.
Also, it's a dragon. Wouldn't someone be guarding that beast if they were looking for her?

Foot stuff, ah OK. Wait, what's he doing now??? That was just shock for shock's sake.

[Sudy]

I've got a bigger problem with the physically improbable, presumably unintentional murder earlier in the episode than foot stuff. While I didn't need to see his hand reaching inside his trousers, this exchange did add dimension to the characters involved and their relationship. It's disgusting, but it's meaningful.

Really not sure what to make of the ending. I understand arguments both for and against unleashing fire. What I have the bigger problem with is the presumed loss of life for a flashy scene. I get that commoners' lives have little to no value to most of these characters; we see this over and over again, and occasionally it's a plot point. But it makes it really difficult to cheer for any of these characters (and though they're almost all detestable, we are frequently incited to cheer for them) when they have such a seemingly over-the-top disregard for human life. It's just mentally and emotionally exhausting.

Spoiler:

It does bother me that Mysaria's motivation is stopping the child fighting ring, as it would have been much more meaningful if it hadn't just been introduced this episode.

I thought it was another great episode overall though.

[McNutt]

I'm also not sure how the rider isn't crushed when breaking through the floor. It had to have been a pretty solid floor to support all of those people. It's not like crashing through drywall.

[Smoove_B]

I've got a bigger problem with the physically improbable, presumably unintentional murder earlier in the episode than foot stuff. While I didn't need to see his hand reaching inside his trousers, this exchange did add dimension to the characters involved and their relationship. It's disgusting, but it's meaningful.

I think it adds another layer to her character, particularly after what happened at the Small Council table; it's pretty clear she's a figurehead to them and her only use is to further the agenda of others. Her interaction with Ser Larys is more of the same. It's uh...more intimate, but she's still just a "thing" to someone. Pretty much then the last 20 years (potentially) she's been nothing but a means to an end.

In this way, I think she's much more sympathetic than someone like Cersi (which I keep seeing people trying to compare her to elsewhere) - very different dimensions.

[hepcat]

I'd love to be the fly on the wall for how their conversations went from "hey, I can help you!" to "Which little Piggie went to...UUUUUHHHHHNNNNN".

But on a more serious note, it makes no sense to me that Larys would squander some of the capital he gained from sucking up to the queen on a freakin' foot fetish. He's the one that needs to make her trust him implicitly. Asking her to doff her socks for some trouser bingo seems like a totally ill advised way to curry more favor from someone who he needs on his side. Yes, she's somewhat naive and innocent in the ways of power, but that's just WAY too obvious a power play on Larys' end.

[El Guapo]

I'm also not sure how the rider isn't crushed when breaking through the floor. It had to have been a pretty solid floor to support all of those people. It's not like crashing through drywall.

It wasn't clear to me whether Rhaenys (sp?) was on the dragon when it burst in, or whether she got on afterwards. They've established that there's some vague quasi-telepathic bond between rider and dragon, though it doesn't seem quite like there's full verbal communication. We do see Rhaenys edging towards the exit shortly before her dragon bursts in Kool Aid Man style. My understanding when I saw it was that she hopped on the dragon after it burst in. Which I think makes the most sense, in that she probably wouldn't survive bursting in on the dragon, plus it wouldn't make sense for her to burst in to the ceremony only for the purpose of roaring at the Greens.

[hepcat]

We do see Rhaenys edging towards the exit shortly before her dragon bursts in Kool Aid Man style.

We see her going down stairs before that scene. So my natural assumption is she hopped on the good ship Dragonpop on parking level C (I'm guessing she had her keys and just used that to trigger the alarm so she could find him/her/it) and then he/she/it somehow shielded her from harm with its wings or something.

[EvilHomer3k]

Seems we're out of spoiler territory here.

Spoiler:

or are we?
Here's the scene. It doesn't show the dragon breathing fire on the ceiling/floor.

Obviously Rhaenys can't kill them all because then the show's over. But I suppose people want more reason than that. She has no love for Rhaenyra whom she believes had something to do with her son's death. She is also a decent person and likely hopes that there can be a way forward without unnecessary killing (at least killing people she's related to). It's not that far fetched that she wouldn't want to kill her cousins (?) or Alicent. Alicent, herself is against the killing of Rhaenyra even though she's a very real threat. Hightower yells out "Open the doors" and Rhaenys looks over her shoulder so there might be a slight urgency to her deciding if she burns them or not. Finally, if she kills them, she's starting a war. Other hightowers and at least some of the lords of westeros are loyal to Aegon (remember they've been plotting this for sometime). I'm not saying war isn't going to happen because she doesn't (it most certainly is). but she's not the one starting it.

[hepcat]

So....

Spoiler:

Killing a large number of innocent people at a coronation isn't an act of war?

We've been doing war wrong in this world for ages, it would seem.

That being said, I'm perfectly willing to listen to an explanation in the next episode as to why she didn't do what seemed like the obvious thing in that scene. People make dumb choices in shows I love all the time, and when people rail against those things, I remind them that people are always doing dumb things in real life. I just hope we get at least a small explanation for why this particular instance happened.

[McNutt]

Killing them doesn't start a war. It ends one. The war started when the Queen convinced others that the named successor was changed in a private conversation. Killing the Queen and her kids would end the need for a war. Or that war at least. It might cause a war between her and her brother if she were then to try and claim the crown.

[Jaymann]

I'm also not sure how the rider isn't crushed when breaking through the floor. It had to have been a pretty solid floor to support all of those people. It's not like crashing through drywall.

It's like if the Koolaid pitcher...BAM'd by hepcat.

[hepcat]

That was actually El Guapo with the Kool Aid man comparison.

[Hrothgar]

That was actually El Guapo with the Kool Aid man comparison.

To be fair, you are known for bursting into rooms without pants shouting, "Oh, Yeah!"

[msteelers]

We watched this last night. I thought it was a great episode with a really stupid ending that might taint the rest of the series.

Spoiler:

Rhaenys busting out of the dragon pit in full armor was cool as hell. Wonderful spectacle. But to just roar in the face of the greens and then skip out of there? It makes no sense in the context of the story. I like to give the writers the benefit of the doubt on stuff like this, but this one goes a bit too far. In the after the episode thing they said that she spared them because she related to Alicent as a mother. That she knew she could end the coming war right then, but chose not to.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy that.

Maybe this will be something they address and clean up in the finale, but it will most likely be a situation where I'll just have to not think about it too much.

I'm also really surprised at the general reactions I'm seeing to the whole Larys Strong thing. Out of everything this franchise has shown us over the years, how does a foot fetish even register? Especially in an episode where we see kids that have

Spoiler:

had their teeth and nails filed down so they could be better at human cockfighting.

[hepcat]

I complained about both of those scenes. And I explained why I thought the little piggies scene was stupid.

That was actually El Guapo with the Kool Aid man comparison.

To be fair, you are known for bursting into rooms without pants shouting, "Oh, Yeah!"

Like a sad, pantsless vampire, I have to be invited in first.

[El Guapo]

We watched this last night. I thought it was a great episode with a really stupid ending that might taint the rest of the series.

Spoiler:

Rhaenys busting out of the dragon pit in full armor was cool as hell. Wonderful spectacle. But to just roar in the face of the greens and then skip out of there? It makes no sense in the context of the story. I like to give the writers the benefit of the doubt on stuff like this, but this one goes a bit too far. In the after the episode thing they said that she spared them because she related to Alicent as a mother. That she knew she could end the coming war right then, but chose not to.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy that.

Maybe this will be something they address and clean up in the finale, but it will most likely be a situation where I'll just have to not think about it too much.

I'm also really surprised at the general reactions I'm seeing to the whole Larys Strong thing. Out of everything this franchise has shown us over the years, how does a foot fetish even register? Especially in an episode where we see kids that have

Spoiler:

had their teeth and nails filed down so they could be better at human cockfighting.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree about the episode and the ending.

Spoiler:

I guess the way I'm choosing to view it now is that Rhaenys only burst in because she had to - the dragon pit was directly below the coronation area, and she needed to burst out in order to escape. Once there, she contemplated roasting the whole Team Green but couldn't bring herself to - it'd be murdering weaponless people that she knows.

If she burst in only to roar at them before leaving, then that's pretty much just straight up stupid.

[McNutt]

She didn't have a problem killing who knows how many peasants when breaking out.

[Jaymann]

She didn't have a problem killing who knows how many peasants when breaking out.

Since everyone was there, it was likely a bunch of royals ate a rock sandwich.

Perhaps her statement was to the effect of: "This place sucks, I'm taking my dragon and GTFO."

[EvilHomer3k]

Spoiler:

Remember in GOT Robert Barathean wanted to kill every Targaryan because leaving just one would be an issue. Danaerys didn't have an army, a dragon, or anything and she had 0 allies at the beginning of the show. The Greens have been plotting to take over for a very long time and have allies in place. Aegon has children and once he's crowned his children have a claim to the throne. You don't think that some of the Greens alliew wouldn't jump on that? Killing them doesn't end anything unless you kill all the Greens and all of Aegon's children. We know that Aegon also has numerous bastard children running around. We know that those are seen as a threat to Joffrey's claim (so theoretically could be a threat here, too). We don't know how many people were killed nor do we know if that was the only way out for Rhaneas. At this point there is still no official war going on. There is still a chance at a peaceful resolution (though slim).
So we have a king with several legitimate children and allies of the Greens who would, I'm certain, jump at the chance to control a king. Everything is in place for them to claim they are the heir to the throne. We don't know anything about the Hightower's relatives. Is there a Mrs Hightower? Uncle/Brother? Brother/Sister to the queen? I doubt they'd be too happy with Rhaenys killing their father/sister/brother. I don't see how killing these 6 people puts an end to anything.

[msteelers]

Spoiler:

Remember in GOT Robert Barathean wanted to kill every Targaryan because leaving just one would be an issue. Danaerys didn't have an army, a dragon, or anything and she had 0 allies at the beginning of the show. The Greens have been plotting to take over for a very long time and have allies in place. Aegon has children and once he's crowned his children have a claim to the throne. You don't think that some of the Greens alliew wouldn't jump on that? Killing them doesn't end anything unless you kill all the Greens and all of Aegon's children. We know that Aegon also has numerous bastard children running around. We know that those are seen as a threat to Joffrey's claim (so theoretically could be a threat here, too). We don't know how many people were killed nor do we know if that was the only way out for Rhaneas. At this point there is still no official war going on. There is still a chance at a peaceful resolution (though slim).
So we have a king with several legitimate children and allies of the Greens who would, I'm certain, jump at the chance to control a king. Everything is in place for them to claim they are the heir to the throne. We don't know anything about the Hightower's relatives. Is there a Mrs Hightower? Uncle/Brother? Brother/Sister to the queen? I doubt they'd be too happy with Rhaenys killing their father/sister/brother. I don't see how killing these 6 people puts an end to anything.

It would certainly end the threat of open war, as nobody you mentioned would be an immediate threat.

Spoiler:

Assuming everyone on that stage would have been killed, the only one left to make a claim would be some unknown bastard from Flea Bottom. Not exactly someone you need to worry about in the next few years. And the Hightowers would certainly be pissed, but their only options would be to bend the knee or die. They'd be going up against the largest navy and every dragon rider on their side would have just been wiped out.

The remaining Green allies might be pissed and scheming behind the scenes, but at the end of the day none of them will have a dragon unless they can get Aegon's bastards to throw their legs over the back of one. And so far in this world's history the side with dragons is undefeated.

Also, the actions of the Green Council this episode amount to an official declaration of war. They are claiming the throne for themselves and even ordered for Rhaenera to be arrested. There's no going back now, it's either victory or death for everyone involved.