Game of Thrones - House of the Dragon [HBO]

[El Guapo]

, but there's not some island or nation devoted to crab worship.

Well thanks a lot, captain buzzkill.

Think of this as more of an opportunity. You could start the crab worshipping cult, and build it into a crab worshipping nation.

[ImLawBoy]

Is this one of those things where you complain if they don't detail Crabtopia, but you'd also complain if they wasted time detailing Crabsylvania since it's not really important to the main point of the story?

Hopefully you’re not talking about me too. I didn’t call for a deep dive into the world of Crabby Bay. But I would like some reason for their crustacean based cruelty. That doesn’t mean I need more than “because they’re pirates and that’s a scare tactic”. I understand that sometimes you just need a galvanizing force to move the story along.

No, I think it was just McNutt calling for a spin-off series on Crabistan. I also thought it was pretty clearly implied when they called the leader the Crabfeeder that this was a part of his intimidation - resist and you'll be crab food.

However, if they DO become more than just a story driving tool, I would hope they’d flesh them out.

Absolutely. If the werecrabs (I assume that's where we're going with this) become a recurring theme throughout the show, they need to go into more detail. If they're just the vehicle that aligns Corlys and Daemon and they get wiped out in the next episode or two in an epic dragon-fueled crab boil, then I don't think we need to know about their potential alliances with the Lobster People.

[hepcat]

Crab worshipping, werecrabs, Crabistan….you folks are promising me things I fear won’t happen.

[Smoove_B]

I have a "Crabfeeder Babies" show that I just pitched to Adult Swim. I'll keep you posted.

[McNutt]

So the crab guy is just a pirate leader? I didn't catch that and thought he was the ruler of a certain land. That's what I get for somewhat paying attention.

[ImLawBoy]

I know that it's been decided that the characters in HotD will never evolve or develop in any way,

I think you’re a bit overly dramatic. I’ve repeatedly said I hope they grow the character beyond mustache twirling robber baron. I just felt they tried way too hard to make us hate him in episode one. I would have preferred a more nuanced approach.

As opposed to how subtle they were with Jaime and Cersei in episode 1 of the original GoT as they casually tossed a child to his (intended) death to cover up their incest?

Look, you get to keep making fun of Daemon's name, and I get to keep making fun of people ignoring the history of GoT storytelling and character building. Deal?

[McNutt]

With Jaime, there were redeeming qualities about him. He was a monster when he needed to protect his secret, but he wasn't 24hour bad guy like Daemon seemed in the first episode. I'm sure they'll expand Daemon's character quite a bit. It was just a bit much for episode 1.

[El Guapo]

So the crab guy is just a pirate leader? I didn't catch that and thought he was the ruler of a certain land. That's what I get for somewhat paying attention.

Yeah, he's a specific leader. I'm not 100% clear on what his exact title is, but my understanding is essentially this: the Free Cities have formed a loose alliance called the Triarchy. The Crabfeeder is working for / with the Triarchy, mainly to weaken the Seven Kingdom's hold on the Stepstones Islands (important for shipping lanes) so that the Triarchy can control them (and thereby control the shipping lanes).

I'm not sure whether the Crabfeeder is something like an Admiral within the Triarchy / Free City navy, or whether he's more of a pirate / privateer working for / getting paid by the Triarchy. My sense is the latter.

[hepcat]

I know that it's been decided that the characters in HotD will never evolve or develop in any way,

I think you’re a bit overly dramatic. I’ve repeatedly said I hope they grow the character beyond mustache twirling robber baron. I just felt they tried way too hard to make us hate him in episode one. I would have preferred a more nuanced approach.

As opposed to how subtle they were with Jaime and Cersei in episode 1 of the original GoT as they casually tossed a child to his (intended) death to cover up their incest?

Look, you get to keep making fun of Daemon's name, and I get to keep making fun of people ignoring the history of GoT storytelling and character building. Deal?

I can complain that both characters were introduced with a heavy hand though, right?

[ImLawBoy]

With Jaime, there were redeeming qualities about him. He was a monster when he needed to protect his secret, but he wasn't 24hour bad guy like Daemon seemed in the first episode. I'm sure they'll expand Daemon's character quite a bit. It was just a bit much for episode 1.

The point being Jaime was a 24 hour bad guy in the first episode of GoT (and for a while thereafter). He didn't start redeeming himself until later. Plus, you're ignoring parts of the first episode where Daemon was actually acting responsible during the funeral scene and gently nudging Rhaynera (I'll never get these names right - I wish they were all easy like Daemon) to do her duty. He seemed quite compassionate and human there. We also saw him in episode 2 struggling between his loyalty to his brother and his ambition/bitterness at getting blocked out.

I think this is the danger of declaring someone too one-dimensional after a single episode. There comes a point where a person sees what they want/expect to see, and maybe misses out on some of the more subtle character building that is occurring.

[McNutt]

I wasn't complaining about the character, only how it was handled in episode 1.

Checklist for Episode 1:
Graphic violence
Lots of nudity
Over-the-top portrayal to establish the bad guy

Daemon is not a one-dimensional character. I can see some of that coming out in episode 2. However, they went out of their way to show how bad he was in episode 1. With Jaime, it was more like portraying him as an asshole until the window scene. Same result, but not quite as heavy handed.

[hepcat]

I'm not sure whether the Crabfeeder is something like an Admiral within the Triarchy / Free City navy, or whether he's more of a pirate / privateer working for / getting paid by the Triarchy. My sense is the latter.

I think it's safe to say he's upper management. They don't issue human eating crabs to office interns, I would imagine.

What I'm hoping is that his character uses an arsenal of crab based weaponry when we do get to see more of him. A "Crabapult" for example. Or maybe a "Crabuchet"?

Also, I want his character to utter the words, "I'm feeling....crabby today" right before he does anything evil. Really lean into the crab branding, people.

[Smoove_B]

Welp, my google search history now includes “how do you represent incest on a family tree”. At this point, thanks to OO, it’s not really enough to clear my cache. I need to burn all my electronic devices and go off grid.

If you just waited a day, the Independent would have had you covered:

It is a tradition that reappeared in last night’s episode of House of the Dragon. King Viserys (an ancestor of the aforementioned Viserys) is offered the hand of Lady Laena Velaryon shortly after the death of his first wife. Laena is not only 12, but Viserys’ first cousin once removed. (What this term means here is that Viserys’ grandparents are Laena’s great-grandparents; Laena’s mother is Viserys’ cousin. Viserys and Laena are cousins at one generational remove.)

...

Overall, though, the family Targaryen knows to keep it in the family – even more so than real-world royal families. As the geneticist Razib Khan points out, “Daenerys Targaryen’s inbreeding coefficient is 0.375. Charles II, the last Spanish Habsburg, who was impotent ... mentally disabled and could barely walk, had a coefficient of 0.254.”

...

Perhaps House of the Dragon has yet more inbreeding to offer us. Viewers have wondered whether there were “odd, incest-like vibes” between Prince Daemon, who is Viserys’ brother, and Princess Rhaenyra, Viserys’ daughter, when he puts a necklace on her in the first episode. The plot of the rest of the show’s first season remains an expertly guarded secret, but given where this all ends up – mad Daenerys Targaryen torching King’s Landing – we can assume that the family continues to keep its procreation firmly in-house.

[Daehawk]

I didn't know all GoT weapons were made and sold local to me. Its a place called Jalic Blades in Chattanooga. The dude lucked the F out when he got the license. Said he called up George RR Martin and asked if he could buy the rights to make weapons based on his books and he agreed. 3 weeks later HBO bought the rights to the books...so this dude got stinking rich and still is for another 6 or 7 years to go lol.

https://www.jalic-blades.com/

[pr0ner]

Nothing is standing out yet, but at least now the story is taking shape for me. I want the politics and the backstabbing, and we're getting there now.

It's only been two episodes!

[pr0ner]

I wasn't complaining about the character, only how it was handled in episode 1.

Checklist for Episode 1:
Graphic violence
Lots of nudity
Over-the-top portrayal to establish the bad guy

Daemon is not a one-dimensional character. I can see some of that coming out in episode 2. However, they went out of their way to show how bad he was in episode 1. With Jaime, it was more like portraying him as an asshole until the window scene. Same result, but not quite as heavy handed.

Daemon wasn't a one-dimensional character in the first episode either.

[McNutt]

They did a lot to show you how "bad" he was. Cheating at jousting. Cutting off penises. Maybe he isn't one dimensional, but they really focused on his dark tendencies in episode 1.

[hepcat]

Nothing is standing out yet, but at least now the story is taking shape for me. I want the politics and the backstabbing, and we're getting there now.

It's only been two episodes!

Good point. I agree, you'd think they'd have developed their characters a bit more in that time. Added a few more interesting backstories. Ah well, they're not as fleshed out as GoT was at this point, but I'm willing to give them some more time to grow. I suspect it's just due to a weaker writing room.

Demon wasn't a one-dimensional character in the first episode either.

I will compromise and say a 1.5 dimensional character then. But that's as high as I'm going at this point.

[Smoove_B]

Holy crap, I missed this:

Apparently sensing that the internet’s limited attention span for TV shows where people wear armor and glower at each other might have drifted away from it for a bit—on account of this weekend’s release of Amazon’s uber-expensive The Lord Of The Rings: Rings Of Power—HBO’s House Of The Dragon has pulled a very sneaky move today: Releasing the whole first episode of the Game Of Thrones prequel onto YouTube, for free.

[Jaymann]

I fully expected:

Spoiler:

The brown hart to skewer the king and send the realm into a succession crisis.

Also, who knew:

Spoiler:

Hiding in caves was the ultimate military strategy.

[JCC]

Wow, awesome episode this week.

[rittchard]

I'm still finding the characters in this show hard to like, which makes it harder for me to enjoy the show. I guess they are growing on me more now, but honestly there's not a single one who I'd actually be disappointed if they got killed off. I think my favorite character right now is that pregnant lady. And the hunky guard guy, I guess, but he's hardly in it.

The episode was pretty engaging, although I do admit I somehow fell asleep during the best part at the end and had to rewatch it lol. That said, a couple nitpicks:

Spoiler:

Daemon's big fight scene was just a little over the top, even for me. I mean, this was venturing into superhero territory. If he was that awesome, why didn't they just launch a few more solo offensive attacks over the three years of fighting? I understand they exaggerated some things for dramatic value, but come on. Those were some stinky archers for sure, it took like a thousand arrows to get a hit on him. Honestly I'd be more on board if they said he had a magic spell or something cast on him, because it was just a little ridiculous.

Regardless, the crab people leader just seemed really LAME. It's so hard to believe that in 3 years they couldn't have sent someone to infiltrate the caves and assassinate his scrawny crab ass.

The big save was super cool, BUT.... kind of ruined by confusion as to what dragon that was and who was flying it. I had to read about 3 articles to figure out it was supposed to be a third dragon we hadn't seen yet, flown by that kid. And that he could fly it because he's half Targaryen. I mean, I know I sometimes lose focus while watching but that seems like a lot of extra info I was supposed to be aware of. Unless they are going to spend time explaining it later?

[hepcat]

I agree with almost everything rritchard wrote above. However, this episode did go a long way towards helping me not to see Doctor Who when I look at Matt Smith. So that’s a plus.

[Holman]

I've just watched the second episode, and I thought it was better than the first. It did a lot more character work. I hereby revise my "thinness" criticism lodged after episode one.

As for the crabmonger, maybe these are the ancestors of the Greyjoys? We're told that Corlys Velaryon currently sits the Driftwood Throne, so maybe the Crab Pirates take it from him later and somehow achieve legitimacy as a House.

The crabby business and the weird mask would sort of work with the Greyjoys' strange semi-Lovecraftian religion (which was kind of dropped from the later seasons of GOT but in which GRRM remains interested in the later books).

(I've also watched the first two eps of The Rings of Power, which I think is superior to HotD.)

(EDIT: GoT wiki informs me that my theory above is bunk.)

[Holman]

Let's talk about that title sequence, though...

The GoT map did real work in orienting us to the shape of the world and the relative locations of different plotlines. This one is just really confusing.

What effect, exactly, is the flowing blood(?) having on the raised sigils? And why do they affect some and not others? And *are* they House sigils? It's the most obvious assumption, but we don't get to see them long enough to recognize anything.

Most of all, what even is this structure? It seems like it might be related to the model city/trainset Viserys is building in his chambers, except it's really not that thing. We see the model in it's entirety in several scenes, and it just doesn't have all those channels, not does it feature sigil buttons.

Kind of a confusing mess.

[Jaymann]

I think it's AI generated imagery.

[Sudy]

I'm awestruck by the third episode. Paddy Considine is so good in this. A lot of really strong character moments from multiple characters. And the ending was something else. I was mixed on the series until now. I'm amazed by how much they accomplished with a relatively restrained use of the luridness that pervades the series's genes.

Spoiler:

Yeah, the arrow thing bothered me a bit. But he did get hit eventually. I rolled my eyes when I thought they were going to show him pulling the arrows out, but was relieved when he only seemed to snap off the shafts. (Which I'm guessing would still be an accomplishment in the middle of a battle, or at any time.)

I really don't have a problem with the Crab King's story; he fulfilled his purpose and his scenes were sufficiently haunting during the first three episodes. I wish we'd gotten to know more about him, but that would dispel the mystique and he was never to be the focus. Maybe there would have been room for it if the series weren't moving at such an expeditious pace.

[msteelers]

Let's talk about that title sequence, though...

It’s the Targaryen family tree. Each circle represents a person, and the blood lines connect to their spouses and children. The circle fills with blood when they die, so as they show moves on we’ll see some subtle changes to it as characters are married, born, and die off.

The structure is the model of Valyria that the king is building.

It’s a cool idea, but the credits go so fast there’s no way to see what’s happening without pausing every few seconds. There are a bunch of breakdowns of it online.

[McNutt]

I'm awestruck by the third episode. Paddy Considine is so good in this.

He's my favorite part of this show. He looks so uncomfortable being the king. Like he's not a great king and he knows it. He is nailing that vibe.

[hepcat]

Considine is an actor's actor. I always enjoy his work. I first saw him in Dead Man's Shoes back in 2004. I went into it thinking it was going to a British version of Rambo. But Considine took the avenging character role and gave it a heck of a lot more depth. It's not a great film, but he was great in it. His character was out for blood, but Considine made the character aware he was doing something awful at the same time and it tortured him...both in his appearance and his mannerisms. Just a wonderful performance overall.

p.s. I think my favorite revelation from the latest episode is that Princess Rhaenyra has her own bard. Sir Spot-i-fy.

[Holman]

Let's talk about that title sequence, though...

It’s the Targaryen family tree. Each circle represents a person, and the blood lines connect to their spouses and children. The circle fills with blood when they die, so as they show moves on we’ll see some subtle changes to it as characters are married, born, and die off.

The structure is the model of Valyria that the king is building.

It’s a cool idea, but the credits go so fast there’s no way to see what’s happening without pausing every few seconds. There are a bunch of breakdowns of it online.

Ah ha! Thanks!

[rittchard]

p.s. I think my favorite revelation from the latest episode is that Princess Rhaenyra has her own bard. Sir Spot-i-fy.

That was pretty hilarious, though I have to admit I wished it was Jaskerr (sp?) from The Witcher singing.

[hepcat]

I kept expecting her to yell "Thumbs down!" every time he started a song. Then he'd stop, reply "rating saved" and start a new one.

[naednek]

p.s. I think my favorite revelation from the latest episode is that Princess Rhaenyra has her own bard. Sir Spot-i-fy.

That was pretty hilarious, though I have to admit I wished it was Jaskerr (sp?) from The Witcher singing.

hell, at first I thought it was the same actor. I was like poor guy, he's gonna be type cast

[Holman]

p.s. I think my favorite revelation from the latest episode is that Princess Rhaenyra has her own bard. Sir Spot-i-fy.

That was pretty hilarious, though I have to admit I wished it was Jaskerr (sp?) from The Witcher singing.

hell, at first I thought it was the same actor. I was like poor guy, he's gonna be type cast

He'll be fine. The whole point of the Bard class is to avoid combat and still come out with your share of XP.

[ImLawBoy]

Spoiler:

Daemon's big fight scene was just a little over the top, even for me. I mean, this was venturing into superhero territory. If he was that awesome, why didn't they just launch a few more solo offensive attacks over the three years of fighting? I understand they exaggerated some things for dramatic value, but come on. Those were some stinky archers for sure, it took like a thousand arrows to get a hit on him. Honestly I'd be more on board if they said he had a magic spell or something cast on him, because it was just a little ridiculous.

Spoiler:

I think that's why they didn't do those types of attacks earlier - he was lucky to survive this one, and wouldn't have if it weren't for the dragon save. The point here was that he was so pissed that his brother was going to come to his rescue that he was going to either end the war right there or die. Yes, it was completely over the top and not terribly believable, but I suppose I've gotten used to it with much fantasy.

Spoiler:

The big save was super cool, BUT.... kind of ruined by confusion as to what dragon that was and who was flying it. I had to read about 3 articles to figure out it was supposed to be a third dragon we hadn't seen yet, flown by that kid. And that he could fly it because he's half Targaryen. I mean, I know I sometimes lose focus while watching but that seems like a lot of extra info I was supposed to be aware of. Unless they are going to spend time explaining it later?

Spoiler:

They mentioned earlier in the show that Rhanerya should marry that rider (Vaelon?} because it would mend the rift with the Velaryons and that he already had Targaryen blood (which would make him capable of being a dragon rider). At first I thought it might be Rhanerya herself since the dragon looked nothing like Daemon's, but once we saw the rider I realized what happened at that it must have been Vaelon's dragon. They also mentioned earlier something about "dragons" plural, so it makes sense that this isn't an entirely new dragon to the battle (even though it's new to us).

[hepcat]

The new dragon was oddly reminiscent of Asian mythology's version of dragons. It had a slim, snake like body instead of the usual look that resembles the squat, dog like body with wings found in most western representations. I wonder if that was intentional.

[McNutt]

Oh, ffs. Now we have Asian dragons? Enough of this woke series. /s

[hepcat]

What I’m hoping happens in the next episode is we get a shot of a new dragon named Falkor. But he doesn’t breath fire….he breathes joy on all the children of Westeros.

[ImLawBoy]

Going back to our prior discussion on the lack of technological evolution in the GoT universe, this is an interesting read. It's a mailbag on Ringer, and the last question is about the lack of progress. The author shares some theories that are kind of fun.