Crew member fatally shot on set of Alec Baldwin movie

[Holman]

Prop Gun Fired by Alec Baldwin Contained Live Bullet, Says IATSE Local 44 (Update) http://bit.ly/3B94Znr

"IATSE Local 44 sent an email that said the gun used in the scene contained 'a live round' and the production's propmaster was not a member of Local 44."

[Holman]

I'm surprised dangerous prop guns are still used at all. Why not just CGI the shots and sounds?

[LawBeefaroni]

There are prop guns that cannot fire a projectile. I'm guessing it is dictated the nature of the shot (film shot) whether they use them or not. Possibly the budget of the production too?

I assume you mean no blanks involved, right?

There are blank guns with reduced barrels. They cannot fire a standard projectile. If you use a live round it could cause injury but they are usually also designed to block a live round from chambering. These are more expensive though and come through the larger prop shops.

[Unagi]

So, we are still waiting to hear any justification for there being a live round in the gun, is that right?
I mean, that seems criminal to me. Sneaking a live round into the scene ?

It seems more likely it'd be criminal *negligence* -- on the prop master's part -- but the world is a strange place.

But I can't honestly understand why there would ever be a reason to have a live round in a 'prop' (functional) gun at all... That's like replacing a fake prop syringe with a real one, with real poison in it... That would be acting in a way that one knew would have grave consequences. I mean, how the hell can they pretend to be taking any safety precautions if they even have a real gun... let alone the round... quite frankly. I mean how hard could it be for the prop world to have guns that are incapable of firing a projectile?

bleh, such a preventable accident.

There are prop guns that cannot fire a projectile. I'm guessing it is dictated the nature of the shot (film shot) whether they use them or not. Possibly the budget of the production too?


There should never be a live round on set and prop guns should be segregated and never used to fire live rounds. The prop master should inspect the prop gun every time it changes hands or leaves their sight. Any time a scene calls for a trigger pull, the prop master should check the load. And the 3 rules of gun safety should be observed at all times except when a scene calls for otherwise (and prop master has done the aforementioned load check).


There are definitely procedures in place, this is a case of someone fucking up. Or as mentioned upthread, possibly intentionally causing this.

That is what I was mentioning in my ‘sneaking a live round into the scene.

[LordMortis]

prop guns should be segregated and never used to fire live rounds.

This and it's a failure I don't get, which goes back to reminding me of Brandon Lee. I don't get it but then I'm not knowledgeable of how movies work.

[malchior]

There are blank guns with reduced barrels. They cannot fire a standard projectile. If you use a live round it could cause injury but they are usually also designed to block a live round from chambering. These are more expensive though and come through the larger prop shops.

Gotcha that tracks.

[malchior]

There are definitely procedures in place, this is a case of someone fucking up. Or as mentioned upthread, possibly intentionally causing this.

That is what I was mentioning in my ‘sneaking a live round into the scene.

With the natural caveat that it seems super unlikely. That sounds like the plot from an episode of Psych.

[Paingod]

So, we are still waiting to hear any justification for there being a live round in the gun, is that right?
I mean, that seems criminal to me. Sneaking a live round into the scene ?

It would appear that the Union is most concerned with you knowing it was a non-Union person who's responsible, so clearly being outside the Union makes you incompetent. Thus, non-Union = live rounds. Just mildly annoyed by the statement and hand waving. A tragedy doesn't need it.

[Isgrimnur]

The union's job is to protect its people, much like a defense attorney.

[Blackhawk]

Unless you're using oddball ammunition, you can tell in an instant if a round is real or a blank. Not to be confused with a dummy round, which looks identical to a live round, but typically doesn't have any propellant.



vs



And if they aren't painting the backs/primers of their blanks, they're idiots. And weighing them.

My first thoughts when I heard this, admittedly not knowing Hollywood:

Possibility 1: Given that this has a historical setting, they were using regular guns rented from a non-prop source (like a group of reenactors), as is often done with war films, and they ended up with one that wasn't properly unloaded.
Possibility 2: They were using the guns off-set for training the actors with live rounds on a range (again, I know this is done for war films), and it wasn't properly unloaded afterward.

Most period revolvers weren't loaded/unloaded in a manner that let you see every round. There was a flip-up hatch that exposed one round at a time, so you had to count and spin the cylinder to see each chamber. It would be easier to miss a round in those.

[Daehawk]

One of two things happened.

1. The prop supervisor utterly failed at his job. Its been shown he was not a member of the union.

2. There was live ammo intentionally placed on set for nefarious reasons.

As a 3rd problem an actor(Baldwin) could have been horsing around with what he thought was a prop gun that was safe.

Someone is in deep shit here. Either the prop guy or the actor....possibly more than one person. There should be multiple checks in place so this doesn't happen since it has happened time and again before.

[Blackhawk]

There are multiple checks in place. Someone didn't do their job properly.

[dbt1949]

There is a round called a wadcutter that looks like a blank. Not sure how that would get in a box of blanks.

[Daehawk]

Reminds me of a nail gun my dad had. It used leadless .22 ammo. I used to smack them with a hammer.

[Blackhawk]

There is a round called a wadcutter that looks like a blank. Not sure how that would get in a box of blanks.

Also a possibility, as they're intended for competitive/paper target shooting.

Again, though, they should be painting their blanks (a stripe along the rear, over the primer so that you can see at a glance when they're loaded.) I don't know if that's their procedure, but it should be.

[Rumpy]

I'm struggling to wrap my head around how this could have even happened. When filming things, they're not using real guns for one thing, but rather props that fire blanks. So, the fact that the gun killed someone sounds incredibly suspicious. Better bring in Columbo.

[Paingod]

When filming things, they're not using real guns for one thing, but rather props that fire blanks.

A prop that can fire a blank is a gun. It requires the same mechanical parts, movement, and expulsion of gasses to work and "fire" without exploding in your hand. A prop gun is a lump of inert metal, much like a prop sword has no edge.

As an example, I found it incredibly interesting that Lord of War (Nicholas Cage) used piles of real guns procured from an arms dealer because renting those was cheaper than trying to manufacture piles of props.

[gilraen]

I'm struggling to wrap my head around how this could have even happened. When filming things, they're not using real guns for one thing, but rather props that fire blanks. So, the fact that the gun killed someone sounds incredibly suspicious. Better bring in Columbo.

They do load real bullets when filming close-ups on special effects. Brandon Lee was killed by a live ammo fragment stuck in the gun, even though the gun was loaded with blanks for his scene. That seems extremely...not a safe thing to do. Obviously this was decades ago, and whether or not that's still a common practice, I have no idea.

OSHA investigators reported Lee was killed by a bullet fragment during a scene in which blanks were supposed to be fired from a .44-caliber Magnum pistol, the N&O reported at the time.

They blamed the shooting on three separate violations of industry safety guidelines.

In an earlier special-effects scene, a .44-caliber bullet was fired from the same gun. That bullet broke apart, leaving a piece lodged in the barrel. No one properly checked or cleaned the gun before placing it in storage, and it was pulled out for Lee’s scene because it contained dummy rounds.

During Lee’s scene, the fragment fired out of the barrel.

[Isgrimnur]

Independent

According to SAG-AFTRA guidelines, the prop master obtains, maintains and handles all firearms for the production and works with the designated safety representative to assure that standards are met.

Before any use of a firearm in a rehearsal, everyone involved is briefed in an “on-site walk through” or “dry-run”. The brief includes an explanation of the intended action, possible deviations, plans to abort, emergency procedures, and a chain of command.

The guidelines state that nobody should be given a firearm until they are trained in safe handling, safe use, the safety lock, and proper firing procedures.

The rules add that anyone using a firearm on set must refrain from pointing it at anyone, including themselves, and if it is absolutely necessary to do so on camera, to consult the prop master or the safety representative.

Actors are told not to place their finger on the trigger until they are ready to shoot and not to engage in “horseplay”.

It is the prop master’s job to inspect the firearm and barrel before and after every firing scene.

PPE such as protective shields, eye, and hearing protection is to be used by all people close to the user or directly in the line of fire.

[LordMortis]

They do load real bullets when filming close-ups on special effects. Brandon Lee was killed by a live ammo fragment stuck in the gun, even though the gun was loaded with blanks for his scene. That seems extremely...not a safe thing to do. Obviously this was decades ago, and whether or not that's still a common practice, I have no idea.

This I've never understood. How is that allowed? The only way I could see a prop gun being allowed live rounds, ever, is if you stripped the gun for total cleaning after use. No exceptions. Heck, I have hard time seeing a prop gun not stripped and cleaned after every use even when having never fired a live round. It makes no sense to me at all.

[Paingod]

Yeah. If we can have four versions of an identical car for different purposes on set, we can have four identical guns for the same thing.

I suspect, though, that keeping track of four guns is harder than four cars. You can hide identifiers inside the car, out of view of the camera. There aren't many hiding spots on a firearm. Wouldn't be impossible, just less easy.

[Archinerd]

Reminds me of a nail gun my dad had. It used leadless .22 ammo. I used to smack them with a hammer.

I found one of those on a construction site when I was a kid. I also smacked it with a hammer, and the casing hit me in the back of the thigh hard enough to draw blood. It's not the last time I did something stupid, but it was the last time I did that stupid thing.

[Daehawk]

Also fun to shoot with a BB gun.

[Alefroth]

I'm surprised dangerous prop guns are still used at all. Why not just CGI the shots and sounds?

They can, and obviously those that advocate for the use of CGI are speaking out. I'm guessing this will be the turning point to eliminate powder based prop guns.

[McNutt]

This will likely result in very strict safety protocols for using powder ammunition, but I can't see this moving the needle towards eliminating it. An accident every few decades is not indicative of an industry-wide problem.

[Archinerd]

Yeah, I don't have any real data but I wouldn't be surprised to learn more people die on set from boat accidents than bullets.

Not very comforting in the moment though.

[Alefroth]

This will likely result in very strict safety protocols for using powder ammunition, but I can't see this moving the needle towards eliminating it. An accident every few decades is not indicative of an industry-wide problem.

There are already very strict safety protocols. We haven't had the ability to mimic gunshots with CGI for decades. I think this definitely moves the needle.

[McNutt]

There are, but I have no idea what the penalty for not following those protocols is right now. I'm guessing that those penalties will go up.

But as for replacing powder ammunition, is this something you think will be a change in the law or will it be voluntary within the movie industry? I think the liability risk is so low due to this being a very rare occurrence that the likelihood of that change will be nil.

[Rumpy]

They do load real bullets when filming close-ups on special effects. Brandon Lee was killed by a live ammo fragment stuck in the gun, even though the gun was loaded with blanks for his scene. That seems extremely...not a safe thing to do. Obviously this was decades ago, and whether or not that's still a common practice, I have no idea.

This I've never understood. How is that allowed? The only way I could see a prop gun being allowed live rounds, ever, is if you stripped the gun for total cleaning after use. No exceptions. Heck, I have hard time seeing a prop gun not stripped and cleaned after every use even when having never fired a live round. It makes no sense to me at all.

Yeah, I don't get it either. If closeups are needed, can't they also be props that look like the real thing? Why risk an accident?

[Octavious]

I only know of a few examples of this happening so I can see why it hasn't been a major point of concern for them. Considering how many movies are made a year with guns all over the place it's a super isolated issue. I would expect changes though due to the people involved aka super famous people.

[Alefroth]

There are, but I have no idea what the penalty for not following those protocols is right now. I'm guessing that those penalties will go up.

But as for replacing powder ammunition, is this something you think will be a change in the law or will it be voluntary within the movie industry? I think the liability risk is so low due to this being a very rare occurrence that the likelihood of that change will be nil.

I think it will be within the industry. I'd say many will refuse to work with powder guns anymore.

[Alefroth]

I only know of a few examples of this happening so I can see why it hasn't been a major point of concern for them. Considering how many movies are made a year with guns all over the place it's a super isolated issue. I would expect changes though due to the people involved aka super famous people.

How many of those are already being done by CGI?

[Holman]

I'd be curious if a super gun-extravaganza like JOHN WICK made *every* shot practical (vs CGI) or only the ones where it was necessary for some reason.

I'd think the liability insurance on a movie with thousands of blanks fired would be prohibitive.

[McNutt]

When you have movies where there are repeated point blank shots to the head like in John Wick, I can see CGI making sense. Otherwise it's an expensive solution a very, and I mean very, rare occurrence.

[McNutt]

I'd think the liability insurance on a movie with thousands of blanks fired would be prohibitive.

Why? This has been happening since forever and those kinds of movies were still produced. If the insurance wasn't prohibitive then, why would it be now?

[Pyperkub]

So, we are still waiting to hear any justification for there being a live round in the gun, is that right?
I mean, that seems criminal to me. Sneaking a live round into the scene ?

It would appear that the Union is most concerned with you knowing it was a non-Union person who's responsible, so clearly being outside the Union makes you incompetent. Thus, non-Union = live rounds. Just mildly annoyed by the statement and hand waving. A tragedy doesn't need it.

Maybe, but also per the LA Times:

A member of the producer staff then ordered the union members to leave the set. She said if they didn’t leave, the producers would call security to remove them.

“Corners were being cut — and they brought in nonunion people so they could continue shooting,” the knowledgeable person said.

There were two misfires on the prop gun on Saturday and one the previous week, the person said, adding “there was a serious lack of safety meetings on this set.”

Sounds like a lot of problems here...

[LordMortis]

There were two misfires on the prop gun on Saturday and one the previous week, the person said, adding “there was a serious lack of safety meetings on this set.”

[LawBeefaroni]

Independent

According to SAG-AFTRA guidelines, the prop master obtains, maintains and handles all firearms for the production and works with the designated safety representative to assure that standards are met.

Before any use of a firearm in a rehearsal, everyone involved is briefed in an “on-site walk through” or “dry-run”. The brief includes an explanation of the intended action, possible deviations, plans to abort, emergency procedures, and a chain of command.

The guidelines state that nobody should be given a firearm until they are trained in safe handling, safe use, the safety lock, and proper firing procedures.

The rules add that anyone using a firearm on set must refrain from pointing it at anyone, including themselves, and if it is absolutely necessary to do so on camera, to consult the prop master or the safety representative.

Actors are told not to place their finger on the trigger until they are ready to shoot and not to engage in “horseplay”.

It is the prop master’s job to inspect the firearm and barrel before and after every firing scene.

PPE such as protective shields, eye, and hearing protection is to be used by all people close to the user or directly in the line of fire.

There should never be a live round on set and prop guns should be segregated and never used to fire live rounds. The prop master should inspect the prop gun every time it changes hands or leaves their sight. Any time a scene calls for a trigger pull, the prop master should check the load. And the 3 rules of gun safety should be observed at all times except when a scene calls for otherwise (and prop master has done the aforementioned load check).


There are definitely procedures in place, this is a case of someone fucking up. Or as mentioned upthread, possibly intentionally causing this.

I got pretty close.



Clearly this can be done safely and clearly someone(s) fucked up big time on that set.

[Blackhawk]

Yeah, I don't think the issue is the nature of the guns/props, or of how they're used. They're used thousands of times a year following a strict set of procedures, and these events are so rare that we can sit here and name the ones in our lifetimes from memory. The correct safety is there, it's in place.

The issue was somebody(ies) not doing what was required.

[dbt1949]

The end result of all this is there was no malfunction of the gun and Alec Baldwin should not have been pointing the gun at someone. He should be prosecuted.