That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons bring us some web forums whereupon we can gather
http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/
If only we could convince people from other countries to come here. No, not THOSE countries. The nice ones.U.S. population growth dipped to its lowest rate since the nation’s founding during the first year of the pandemic as the coronavirus curtailed immigration, delayed pregnancies and killed hundreds of thousands of U.S. residents, according to figures released Tuesday.
The United States grew by only 0.1%, with an additional 392,665 added to the U.S. population from July 2020 to July 2021, bringing the nation's count to 331.8 million people, according to population estimates released by the U.S. Census Bureau.
The U.S. has been experiencing slow population growth for years but the pandemic exacerbated that trend. This past year was the first time since 1937 that the nation’s population grew by less than 1 million people.
Capitalism requires an ever-expanding pool of poor people. If we can't make them, we need to import them.
Sure, let’s go back to another Dark Ages! Sounds wonderful!
Uh, this is nothing “natural”. This is something that is entirely unnatural - it is something we have artificially introduced to our environment. We are doing it to ourselves.Edit to add: Perhaps low sperm count is nature's way of limiting out of control population growth.
Not sure how lower population equates to dark ages. I'm sure we could scrape by with 2 or 3 billion. The lessened taxing on resources could lead to higher standard of living.Grifman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:48 amSure, let’s go back to another Dark Ages! Sounds wonderful!
Uh, this is nothing “natural”. This is something that is entirely unnatural - it is something we have artificially introduced to our environment. We are doing it to ourselves.Edit to add: Perhaps low sperm count is nature's way of limiting out of control population growth.
I can't think of a single historical example of this being true. Falling populations are virtually always associated with lower standards of living. Generally, disastrously lower standards of living.
Black Plague.Little Raven wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:40 pmI can't think of a single historical example of this being true.
It depends upon what you meant by "status quo". Perhaps you can explain?Jaymann wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:21 amNot sure how lower population equates to dark ages. I'm sure we could scrape by with 2 or 3 billion. The lessened taxing on resources could lead to higher standard of living.Grifman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:48 amSure, let’s go back to another Dark Ages! Sounds wonderful!
Uh, this is nothing “natural”. This is something that is entirely unnatural - it is something we have artificially introduced to our environment. We are doing it to ourselves.Edit to add: Perhaps low sperm count is nature's way of limiting out of control population growth.
Fertility doesn't naturally drop like this. You don't get declining sperm counts rapidly like this without some outside source as the cause. Most scientists believe it is something we have introduced into our environment, some way or another. We need research to figure this out as the implications are devastating both socially and economically.On point #2, how exactly do you know this?
Agree.Grifman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:32 pm Fertility doesn't naturally drop like this. You don't get declining sperm counts rapidly like this without some outside source as the cause. Most scientists believe it is something we have introduced into our environment, some way or another. We need research to figure this out as the implications are devastating both socially and economically.
Uh huh. That's why the book your article references is called A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century.
It can be any one of the thousands chemicals that were invented over the last 100 years, touted as miracles of modern engineering, and polluted air, water and every living cell on the planet. The half-life of many of these chemicals is measured in years and decades, so even if you were to ban them today, the damage is already done for an entire generation.Holman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:45 pmAgree.Grifman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:32 pm Fertility doesn't naturally drop like this. You don't get declining sperm counts rapidly like this without some outside source as the cause. Most scientists believe it is something we have introduced into our environment, some way or another. We need research to figure this out as the implications are devastating both socially and economically.
Jaymann's quote, that you initially responded to, said "could lead to". I don't think anyone was trying to argue an immediate effect. Well, except possibly you. It feels like you may actually agree with the statement....Little Raven wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:44 pm Don't get me wrong, gil, I'm not saying that the Black Plague didn't bring benefits. Certain people most definitely benefitted, particularly over the long term. I'm just not convinced that anyone who was actually alive anytime near it would have seen it as a thing which "raised living standards" - those benefits we're discussing generally came decades or centuries later, as your article discusses at some length. But I suppose there's no way to know. The primary sources we have from the time all say it was a disaster of biblical proportions, but then, all those sources come from relatively privileged people. It's only natural they'd be upset.
Of course, even if the worst fears of Grif's demographers come to pass, our decline won't look like the Black Death. It'll look like Japan, or Italy, or Portugal. What's funny about these countries is that as far as I know, all of them remain pretty nice places to live even as they age, but boy are their politicians getting nervous.
With the likely exception of overpopulation.Little Raven wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:29 pm Fair enough, although by that metric, EVERYTHING leads to a better world. At least, assuming we like our world.
Uh, that assumes they would let them in. Japan faces dramatic population decline but there isn't much indication that the Japanese want to admit a bunch of foreigners. But I guess time will tell if that changes.Jaymann wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:08 pmWith the likely exception of overpopulation.Little Raven wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:29 pm Fair enough, although by that metric, EVERYTHING leads to a better world. At least, assuming we like our world.
We certainly don't know the long term effects of global reduced population, but we can pretty much tell where overpopulation leads us. My intuition is people looking for more space would move to the places suffering from local depopulation.
I agree. There will always be places that prefer a death spiral to "others."Grifman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:19 pmUh, that assumes they would let them in. Japan faces dramatic population decline but there isn't much indication that the Japanese want to admit a bunch of foreigners. But I guess time will tell if that changes.Jaymann wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:08 pmWith the likely exception of overpopulation.Little Raven wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:29 pm Fair enough, although by that metric, EVERYTHING leads to a better world. At least, assuming we like our world.
We certainly don't know the long term effects of global reduced population, but we can pretty much tell where overpopulation leads us. My intuition is people looking for more space would move to the places suffering from local depopulation.
Aren't our water supplies also loaded with benenzodiazepines, countless hormones, viagra, and all the other drugs we flush/pee? Every time I hear the list of side effects on a drug ad, I figure it is only a matter of time before they become environmental side effects.
https://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/your_t ... s_partner/“We found pharmaceuticals everywhere and there was no place where basically a fish could be unexposed to pharmaceuticals and that was a surprise,” Nick Castillo, a scientist with Florida International University and the Bonefish and Tarpon Trust said of the three-year study.
Ninety-three bonefish in South Florida were tested, according to the report, and all 93 were found to have drugs in their system. And it wasn’t just one drug per fish. The report said that the average number of drugs found in each fish was seven, and that some of the bonefish even had as many as 16 different drugs in them.
There’s a good chance that if you live in an urban area, your tap water is laced with tiny amounts of antidepressants (mostly SSRIs like Prozac and Effexor), benzodiazepines (like Klonopin, used to reduce symptoms of substance withdrawal) and anticonvulsants (like Topomax, used to treat addiction to alcohol, nicotine, food and even cocaine and crystal meth). Such are the implications of environmental studies that have been leaking out over the past decade. Whether or not this psychoactive waste has any effect on the human nervous system remains unclear, but when such pharmaceuticals are introduced into the ecosystem, the fallout for other species is demonstrable—and potentially dire.
