Souls and Souls-like games

[Blackhawk]

We still have threads for the individual titles (and that kind of specific discussion should take place there), but I wanted to discuss the genre a bit.

These games - Souls 1-3, Bloodborne, Nioh, Sekiro, etc - they look amazing. I want to play them, but I've avoided the entire genre. See, I have a low frustration tolerance, and I've noticed over the past couple of years that it's reached an all-time low. I'm easily frustrated, and I'm... angry. Not shoot people angry, but snappy angry. I'm not an outlier here. It's something that has taken over our society lately, and I'm not enjoying it, and I don't want to be a part of it. I thought that maybe finally sitting down and playing a Souls title might be a way to get past that (or smash my controller, either-or.) I'm looking at it as potential exposure therapy - put myself in the situation that causes me problems and work through it.

My son has suggest Dark Souls 3 as a place to start (and he lives for these things.)

But what I'm looking for is the mindset. What's the thought process that allows you to go into an infamously difficult game designed to make you fail over and over, and enjoy it? To work hard, repeatedly, to overcome a challenge only to fail because of a single mistake? What's the mindset that I should be walking into this with to accept that experience as a positive one?

[Chraolic]

I don't think Dark Souls is designed to make you fail, it's more designed to teach you how to overcome the challenges. It's the exact opposite of a button-masher, each enemy and boss has a specific attack pattern that you need to learn how to counter, and once you do you'll be better able to defeat them and be rewarded with some shiny new loot. It's a bit like what JFK said, why climb the highest mountain? Not because it is easy, but because it is hard. Ornstein and Smough can go die in a fire, however.

[coopasonic]

Any progress is progress. Any loss is temporary. It's about learning, adapting and overcoming.

I've finished:
Dark Souls 3
Bloodborne
Nioh
Nioh 2
The Surge
The Surge 2
Code Vein

I think Dark Souls 3 was the hardest of the bunch. I don't want to discount your son's advice, but my perspective is a bit different. DS3 is just... boring. The lore and story are non-existent if you don't go looking for it. Even if you go looking for it, it's so cryptic that you'll need to reference online materials to figure it out. Even figuring out how to progress isn't straightforward. Add in the covenants and invasions and it can be overwhelming.

For the record, I probably got about 30% through Sekiro and the timing there makes DS3 seem easy and you only get one choice for your primary weapon. I got about 50% through Dark Souls. I played it way after release and the graphics/presentation was a challenge for me. I'm about 10% through the new Demon's Souls and it reminds me a lot of DS3.

Of all the From games, I only enjoyed Bloodborne. I got the platinum trophy on that and loved it all the way. It does a much better job of telling a story than the other DS games. Classic souls fan hate it because it changed things fundamentally. It's less about shields and patience and more about rewarding aggression, which is right up my alley.

Across all of the Souls-likes, I'd say The Surge is probably the easiest (actually Code Vein is, but it's not a great example of a souls-like. Mechanically yes, but it's practically hentai.), though Nioh is close. Nioh makes things a bit more accessible by having each mission play in a much smaller map. On the other hand, the bosses are harder than the ones in The Surge.

I am very excited for Elden Ring. It is supposed to have more story and ways to play that would make it much easier than other From games.

[hitbyambulance]

it is about your skillset and improving it. i personally don't understand the crowd that wants to set the game on Easy (or rely on cheats/trainers) to sleepwalk through the entire game 'just for the story' or just to say they 'finished it'. if you want a story, there are books and films and all sorts of other media for that. (i will indulge in the occasional 'walking simulator' every now and then, with the intent that it's an immersive narrative experience - but again, that's not normally my thing.) games are about skill-building and personal challenge for me. i want a title that will be a test, but allows for me - as a person - to improve _myself_, even if it's just upping my attention and reflexes for a while. i don't get overly into finishing games, as i think the game loop/mechanics itself should be interesting and enjoyable to repeat no matter how many times you 'start over' (like with arcade coin-ops). Noita and The Binding of Isaac, for example, are quite punishing, but because the games themselves are so much fun to play, starting over is a feature - well after getting familiar and more mastery with the game mechanics, you get the enjoyable flow of the early game to warm up before you get into challenge territory. it's important to emphasize that you actually learn from your mistakes when you die, and that allows you to improve your own skills and knowledge. you tend to make that mistake less and less - or not at all - from that point forward. it's really all about the journey, not the destination. that's the mindset you have to adopt.

[Scraper]

I agree with Coop in the Bloodborne suggestion. It may be the most fogiving of the From games and it's also one of the best.

[Lordnine]

it is about your skillset and improving it. i personally don't understand the crowd that wants to set the game on Easy (or rely on cheats/trainers) to sleepwalk through the entire game 'just for the story' or just to say they 'finished it'. if you want a story, there are books and films and all sorts of other media for that.

I am the crowd you don’t understand. I don’t care about getting better at single player games (multiplayer games are another matter). Books and movies are someone else's story, games lets the story be about you.

I want to experience the world and get immersed in the setting, but I don’t want to be stressed while doing it. Most “hard” games actively take me out of the experience because I start to see them as just a series of mechanics, basically a repetitive task instead of a living world. At that point I stop caring about the world and start looking at ways to exploit the systems in the game to make the experience easier than intended.

Soulsy games I’ve actually enjoyed are pretty limited and really only consist of the 2D versions, Salt and Sanctuary is probably the one I enjoyed the most, although I did get a ways in the original Nioh.

[Blackhawk]

it is about your skillset and improving it. i personally don't understand the crowd that wants to set the game on Easy (or rely on cheats/trainers) to sleepwalk through the entire game 'just for the story' or just to say they 'finished it'. if you want a story, there are books and films and all sorts of other media for that.

I am the crowd you don’t understand. I don’t care about getting better at single player games (multiplayer games are another matter). Books and movies are someone else's story, games lets the story be about you.

I want to experience the world and get immersed in the setting, but I don’t want to be stressed while doing it. Most “hard” games actively take me out of the experience because I start to see them as just a series of mechanics, basically a repetitive task instead of a living world. At that point I stop caring about the world and start looking at ways to exploit the systems in the game to make the experience easier than intended.

I'm right in between these two. I generally want some degree of challenge. I don't want to play in god mode. But at the same time, I want the mechanics to fade into the background. I want to dodge a sword, or lure an enemy into an ambush. I want to be the guy in the story. I don't want to be playing a game and thinking about numbers, formulas, and AI routines. HBA said, "if you want a story, there are books and films and all sorts of other media for that." At the same time, if you want to analyze code, there are activities for that, too.

[Skinypupy]

it is about your skillset and improving it. i personally don't understand the crowd that wants to set the game on Easy (or rely on cheats/trainers) to sleepwalk through the entire game 'just for the story' or just to say they 'finished it'. if you want a story, there are books and films and all sorts of other media for that.

I am the crowd you don’t understand. I don’t care about getting better at single player games (multiplayer games are another matter). Books and movies are someone else's story, games lets the story be about you.

I want to experience the world and get immersed in the setting, but I don’t want to be stressed while doing it. Most “hard” games actively take me out of the experience because I start to see them as just a series of mechanics, basically a repetitive task instead of a living world. At that point I stop caring about the world and start looking at ways to exploit the systems in the game to make the experience easier than intended.

Same here.

Add in the fact that my gaming time is very limited, so the idea of repeating sections or battles over and over again to eventually git gud enough to succeed holds exactly zero appeal to me. I would much rather play something that allows me to be involved in a story, explore a world, or do something fun.

My reflexes also suck at this point, so it’s unlikely that even with significant repetition that I’d actually have success. I actually grabbed DS3 over the holidays because it was on sale for $15. Figured I’d maybe give it a shot and see if it clicked. It took me a couple hours to even get past the first boss, and everything I read online said “this is an easy boss that you should cruise right through”. Definitely not something for me.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

I agree with Coop in the Bloodborne suggestion. It may be the most fogiving of the From games and it's also one of the best.

My experience is entirely different. I’ve gotten pretty far in most of the Dark Souls games, Demon Souls, and Nioh 1, but could never make it past the beginning stages of Bloodborne. For whatever reason, it was much more difficult for me than those other games.

[coopasonic]

I agree with Coop in the Bloodborne suggestion. It may be the most fogiving of the From games and it's also one of the best.

My experience is entirely different. I’ve gotten pretty far in most of the Dark Souls games, Demon Souls, and Nioh 1, but could never make it past the beginning stages of Bloodborne. For whatever reason, it was much more difficult for me than those other games.

I think the Souls games taught you to be super conservative and defensive and that doesn't work in Bloodborne. I think part of my success in Bloodborne came from the fact that it was really my first From game so I didn't have that Souls conditioning. It also made it a really tough transition to the souls games. I bounced off several times until I finally made the push and finished DS3 last year. I got Demon's Souls for christmas and I can't get past the bridge the dragon likes to roast after the very first boss. Also the fact that I had to search up how to unlock the ability to freaking level up in Demon's Souls. I don't think I ever would have noticed that kid.

[raydude]

I've never gotten into the Souls-like games, and I thought I sucked because of my lack of reflexes. But then I played Ghosts of Tsushima and found out that I was actually pretty good at it. And I think the difference is that Ghosts of Tsushima uses human enemies grounded in human martial arts. So I can judge the distance between myself and my opponent and think - I'm too far for a sword swing, but I can setup for a thrust and between his step forward and mine I'll get him. And for the most part the human enemies don't have superhuman talents. The 1-step-to-hit, 2-steps-to-hit, too many steps (too far away to hit) distance remains the same for all of them. None of them get a magical power of teleportation that screws with my distance estimation.

And so Ghosts remains the closest I'll ever get to playing a Souls-like.

[wonderpug]

My biggest barrier to enjoying Soulslikes is the requirement to 'read' the enemy. I don't have the time/patience/ability to memorize and be able to spot that "he raised his arm kind of sideways so expect him to do a low swing followed by an overhead swing". I need a Soulslike to give me clear flashy color indicators to tell me how I'm supposed to react to an incoming attack, along with more generous timing windows.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

I wouldn’t really consider Ghosts a souls-like game. Both in combat and mechanics, it is very much more in the Assassin’s Creed type genre.

[Skinypupy]

I wouldn’t really consider Ghosts a souls-like game. Both in combat and mechanics, it is very much more in the Assassin’s Creed type genre.

I would agree. It has difficulty levels, allowing people like me who want a less insane challenge to actually play it.

[Blackhawk]

There certainly are a few games that take inspiration from it that aren't fully in genre - Dragon's Dogma springs to mind. Hell, that might even be a good warm-up for it.

[Smoove_B]

I am terrible at souls and souls-like games (one of them I had to stop playing during the intro/tutorial), but I would definitely recommend Dragon's Dogma. It was really enjoyable.

[rittchard]

it is about your skillset and improving it. i personally don't understand the crowd that wants to set the game on Easy (or rely on cheats/trainers) to sleepwalk through the entire game 'just for the story' or just to say they 'finished it'. if you want a story, there are books and films and all sorts of other media for that.

I am the crowd you don’t understand. I don’t care about getting better at single player games (multiplayer games are another matter). Books and movies are someone else's story, games lets the story be about you.

I want to experience the world and get immersed in the setting, but I don’t want to be stressed while doing it. Most “hard” games actively take me out of the experience because I start to see them as just a series of mechanics, basically a repetitive task instead of a living world. At that point I stop caring about the world and start looking at ways to exploit the systems in the game to make the experience easier than intended.

Same here.

Add in the fact that my gaming time is very limited, so the idea of repeating sections or battles over and over again to eventually git gud enough to succeed holds exactly zero appeal to me. I would much rather play something that allows me to be involved in a story, explore a world, or do something fun.

My reflexes also suck at this point, so it’s unlikely that even with significant repetition that I’d actually have success. I actually grabbed DS3 over the holidays because it was on sale for $15. Figured I’d maybe give it a shot and see if it clicked. It took me a couple hours to even get past the first boss, and everything I read online said “this is an easy boss that you should cruise right through”. Definitely not something for me.

I'm definitely in this boat too, and I think many younger folk (or maybe just lucky or gifted) don't appreciate fully what it means when your reflexes and/or hand/eye coordination start to deteriorate. I used to play Contra with my sister and we played a ton and loved it when we finally beat the final boss. When I loaded it up a few years ago I could barely follow the graphics before I died literally in seconds. I don't think of myself as having lost that much coordination, but it was pretty evident. Another good example is League of Legends. I can watch other people play and it seems like the moves make sense and I can even critique them, but when it comes time for me to do it myself it. just. doesn't. happen. I may be the worst CSer in the history of the game (that plays as much as I have lol). Ditto even a game like FFXIV - even times when I know exactly where I'm supposed to be, and I think I've reacted as fast as humanly possible, I can still end up a second too shy and the party wipes because I was the main healer. There was a really popular FPS a while back (forgot which) I literally could not even make it through the tutorial. I died like 10 times trying to follow a simple maneuver but I couldn't time it "correctly" so I never made it further. Just a few examples.

What I don't understand is why someone else (including a game developer) would care, particularly in a single player or non-competitive game, if there was an option for an easier mode for players like me who just want to enjoy the game in the best way that we can. How does that hurt anyone, or even the "artistry" of the game if it's 100% just an option? That's why I appreciate games like Diablo, etc. where they do the reverse, make a normal game for casual players and then add optional hard modes for people who like them. It 100% does not affect me if you want to play a devilishly hard mode and conquer it using whatever means necessary. If you are super skilled and super patient and happy to die and die and try again, good for you! It doesn't affect me in the least and I am happy you have a mode that is more satisfying for you. So why can't you be happy for me?

I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out in Elden Ring. Everything I've read makes it sound like there's a chance for me to enjoy it, but I've fooled myself into other games before as well.

[Blackhawk]

FWIW, challenging games that push your hand-eye coordination, your awareness, and your reaction time are one of the best ways to keep those qualities sharp as you age.

[Isgrimnur]

Kotaku

Souls “scholar” Lokey, who is both a student of the series’ lore and a fluent Japanese speaker, has been digging into the story and themes of the original Dark Souls for years. Now, for the game’s impending 10th anniversary, he’s put everything he knows into two absolutely gorgeous books that are up for pre-order.

[Jaymann]

I am terrible at these type games but Elden Ring was the exception due to the open world where I could build up enough to out level the bosses. I dicked around with Bloodbourne a bit since it was already on my son's PS4, but never beat any bosses.