A National Divorce?

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by Holman »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:04 pm
Holman wrote: I think the main crisis of all this is internal migration and its economic impacts. It might be true that many states are no more extreme than a 60-40 split, but that (already) results in partisan state legislatures with pretty extreme agendas. If those legislatures gain a freer hand to enact those agendas, things change pretty quickly.
Most states are moderate. According to pew, there's only six "states" where the majority party has more than 55% of the populace.
District of Columbia 73%
Vermont 57%
Wyoming 57%
Massachusetts 56%
Delaware 55%
Maryland 55%
But that's not how state legislatures work. Where do we see any influence of a moderating influence by the political minority in, say, Texas?
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by noxiousdog »

Holman wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:51 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:04 pm
Holman wrote: I think the main crisis of all this is internal migration and its economic impacts. It might be true that many states are no more extreme than a 60-40 split, but that (already) results in partisan state legislatures with pretty extreme agendas. If those legislatures gain a freer hand to enact those agendas, things change pretty quickly.
Most states are moderate. According to pew, there's only six "states" where the majority party has more than 55% of the populace.
District of Columbia 73%
Vermont 57%
Wyoming 57%
Massachusetts 56%
Delaware 55%
Maryland 55%
But that's not how state legislatures work. Where do we see any influence of a moderating influence by the political minority in, say, Texas?
To what purpose? No armed forces, no federal funds, and forcing everyone who disagrees to give up their US citizenship?

Way better to whine, pretend, and fire up the base.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by Holman »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:30 pm
Holman wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:51 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:04 pm
Holman wrote: I think the main crisis of all this is internal migration and its economic impacts. It might be true that many states are no more extreme than a 60-40 split, but that (already) results in partisan state legislatures with pretty extreme agendas. If those legislatures gain a freer hand to enact those agendas, things change pretty quickly.
Most states are moderate. According to pew, there's only six "states" where the majority party has more than 55% of the populace.
District of Columbia 73%
Vermont 57%
Wyoming 57%
Massachusetts 56%
Delaware 55%
Maryland 55%
But that's not how state legislatures work. Where do we see any influence of a moderating influence by the political minority in, say, Texas?
To what purpose? No armed forces, no federal funds, and forcing everyone who disagrees to give up their US citizenship?

Way better to whine, pretend, and fire up the base.
But that's what the earlier parts of the thread are trying to game out.

Suppose every state knows that in ten years their legislature will vote on whether to leave or remain in the Union, and suppose the mutual understanding is that departure will be peacefully allowed. As for the military, everyone assumes that what's in your state stays in your state.

What happens then?
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
raydude
Posts: 3894
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:22 am

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by raydude »

I've always wondered what would happen if the Red states only have access to federal funds raised by taxes in their states while Blue states had access to federal funds raised by taxes in their states.

I'm willing to bet Red states would find ways to increase their state taxes real quick.
User avatar
raydude
Posts: 3894
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:22 am

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by raydude »

As for a moderating influence, try this on for size: The minority party in any state gets to redraw the district map.
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by noxiousdog »

Holman wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:35 pm
But that's what the earlier parts of the thread are trying to game out.

Suppose every state knows that in ten years their legislature will vote on whether to leave or remain in the Union, and suppose the mutual understanding is that departure will be peacefully allowed. As for the military, everyone assumes that what's in your state stays in your state.

What happens then?
Best guess?

Red states become like Mexico. Lots of economic opportunity with lots of poverty, corruption, and crime. Blue States? Who knows. The democratic party is so disfunctional, I can't imagine them being able to handle the disparate factions. If they didn't enact a parliamentary system, it would just splinter further.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70098
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by LordMortis »

raydude wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:13 pm As for a moderating influence, try this on for size: The minority party in any state gets to redraw the district map.
Or that the winner of the popular vote has veto power on distract maps. (Of course that's just my selfish interpretation locally for the last I don't even know how many years)
Drazzil
Posts: 4723
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:54 pm

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by Drazzil »

Little Raven wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:13 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:58 pmIf we get to that point, the shit will hit the fan, and all this talk about divorce or dissolution will be on the table. Until then, it's just a bad dream.
I'm not sure why THAT would be the demarcation point. I mean, the Constitution is silent on the issue of abortion, which means it's fair game for both the Feds and the States. Right now, Federal law is silent on it as well, meaning states can do whatever they please, but if either side gains enough control of Congress to enact Federal legislation, (which is a very, VERY high bar, assuming the filibuster sticks around) then I wouldn't expect the Court to intervene.

But then, the line where a government becomes unbearably tyrannical is ultimately an individual decision. Drazzil got there long ago, after all. ;)
Yeah I did. Americans are peasants though. We will allow ourselves to be put in any living situation, to endure any hardship, watch our kids get murdered, watch our family members die of treatable diseases, bear any insult injury or killing blow before we hold those in power responsible.

Want to know why the economy is in desperate need of "entry level": Read slave labor workers? Because those who are at the top would rather run the business at a loss (and claim the tax credit) then shell out for a living wage. Its the same for housing. Easier to keep a unit empty and take a tax deduction at market value then discount the rent.

Our economic system has been set up to destroy those who punch a clock for a living. I am seeing that working the job I have now. I am losing all my benefits and essentially paying to work the job I have at full time status. You cannot make ANY ends meet working the jobs that are created.

Many on the sidelines of employment see this and skip the process entirely, deciding to continue grey or black market employment or live four generations to a domicile then subject themselves to that.

"Am I coming to a point!?" You ask

Yes, Yes I am. There will be NO national divorce. We're too intertwined. It won't even be a Syrian style civil war; too late for that too. Our collapse will be like Somalia. Eventually people will immigrate to like minded areas but this too will be hampered by the destruction wrought by getting to the self sorting stage.

I'm done talking and thinking about this. Prepare for what's next, or don't. Spend time with what makes you happy, because our system is breathing it's last. It's coasting by on social norms, inertia, cooked books, routine oppression and antidepressants. Literally any shock will send it tumbling down.

Smoke em if you got em. Good luck all.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
User avatar
Dogstar
Posts: 1735
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:20 pm

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by Dogstar »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... g-U-S.html
Texas Republicans want to hold a referendum next year to decide whether or not the state should secede from the U.S.

...

Under a section titled 'State Sovereignty,' the platform states: 'Pursuant to Article 1, Section 1, of the Texas Constitution, the federal government has impaired our right of local self-government. Therefore, federally mandated legislation that infringes upon the 10th Amendment rights of Texas should be ignored, opposed, refused, and nullified.

'Texas retains the right to secede from the United States, and the Texas Legislature should be called upon to pass a referendum consistent thereto.'

Texas has long pushed an independent movement, called 'Texit.'
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19978
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Arise, Gilead!

(although TBH, don't they introduce this bill every couple years or so? I know it's not the first time...)
User avatar
Combustible Lemur
Posts: 3961
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:17 pm
Location: houston, TX

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by Combustible Lemur »

Yes and its dumb every time.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

Is Scott home? thump thump thump Crash ......No.
User avatar
Brian
Posts: 12553
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:51 am
Location: South of Heaven
Contact:

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by Brian »

I say fuck it. Let 'em go.
And then we build a wall around their border to keep 'em out.

*Cough* Hyperbole *Cough*
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
User avatar
Little Raven
Posts: 8608
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:26 am
Location: Austin, TX

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by Little Raven »

To be clear, Texas Republicans are calling for a referendum. Nobody is actually doing anything about this yet, though - mostly because it's really stupid, even by Texas Republican standards.
/. "She climbed backwards out her
\/ window into Outside Over There."
User avatar
WYBaugh
Posts: 2650
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:53 pm
Location: Jacksonville, FL

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by WYBaugh »

Then this crap

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/20/politics ... index.html

You'd think they'd have more to worry about
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55315
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Texit won't happen. They're just throwing meat to the economics-changed base with the referendum.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 51302
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by hepcat »

Brian wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:38 pm I say fuck it. Let 'em go.
And then we build a wall around their border to keep 'em out.

*Cough* Hyperbole *Cough*
We keep them walled in but we ship in basic survival goods. This way we can put in drive through windows every mile along the wall. You pull up, demand bbq and then drive off. We wouldn’t even have to talk with them beyond asking for tangy or spicy.
Last edited by hepcat on Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Covfefe!
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 51302
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by hepcat »

Drazzil wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:46 am
I'm done talking and thinking about this. Prepare for what's next, or don't. Spend time with what makes you happy, because our system is breathing it's last. It's coasting by on social norms, inertia, cooked books, routine oppression and antidepressants. Literally any shock will send it tumbling down.

Smoke em if you got em. Good luck all.
Doomsday is May 8th, 2021!

<May 9th>

Okay, I was off a bit. Doomsday is June 12th!

<June 13th>

I misunderstood the talking dog prophet. Doomsday is August 2nd!

<August 3rd>

…sigh…Doomsday is the 34th of Fuckurary.
Covfefe!
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26376
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by Unagi »

Would this hasten or slow the rate of Taco Trucks on every corner?
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by noxiousdog »

Unagi wrote:Would this hasten or slow the rate of Taco Trucks on every corner?
I'm pro taco truck.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26376
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by Unagi »

noxiousdog wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:34 am
Unagi wrote:Would this hasten or slow the rate of Taco Trucks on every corner?
I'm pro taco truck.
I'm very pro taco truck.
User avatar
waitingtoconnect
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 5:56 am

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by waitingtoconnect »

I know many wonderful Americans from both sides of the political aisle. Most Republicans I know hate Trump and wouldn't vote for him but they will vote below the line for Republicans who will be afraid to cross him. They will never vote Democrat ever thanks to media conditioning and their faith in the governors of their red state.

The main issue is many states are now one party states and most news especially Fox News talk about the enemy within and the other side of politics in less than human terms. Combined with social media bots being absolutely effective at brainwashing people from being centrist into embracing weird conspiracy theories like Jim Carrey being the stand in for Joe Biden who died years ago its clear why democracy is in danger.
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26376
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by Unagi »

Ok. That conspiracy theory makes me smile.

I like to think of fake-old-man Biden breaking character and giving us some old-school Jim Carrey routines.
User avatar
waitingtoconnect
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 5:56 am

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by waitingtoconnect »

Further Biden-voting counties amounted to 70% of GDP, while 60% of college-educated voters chose Biden. That is to say, the left-democratic wing of America is the productive and educated part of the country.

Therefore a national divorce actually benefits the blue states.
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by Kraken »

waitingtoconnect wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:17 am Further Biden-voting counties amounted to 70% of GDP, while 60% of college-educated voters chose Biden. That is to say, the left-democratic wing of America is the productive and educated part of the country.

Therefore a national divorce actually benefits the blue states.
An Atlantic article that I read tonight said that if blue and red economies separated, blue would be #1, China would be #2, and red states would be #3 in the world. I think they divided purple between the two to figure that.
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19978
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Saw that, but have not read it yet. I swear someone here is an ‘Atlantic’ writer or editor. :D

So many coincidences of thoughts and timing.
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55315
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by LawBeefaroni »

waitingtoconnect wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:17 am Further Biden-voting counties amounted to 70% of GDP, while 60% of college-educated voters chose Biden. That is to say, the left-democratic wing of America is the productive and educated part of the country.

Therefore a national divorce actually benefits the blue states.
Which is why it won't happen. Not until the red states figure out a way to keep the blue states paying for all their shit.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:59 am It's a nonstarter. The economics alone would prohibit any kind of split.
Texas is not going to take on the burden of Alabama, Arkansas, and Mississippi.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43487
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: A National Divorce?

Post by Blackhawk »

Texas won't even take on the burden of Texas.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
Post Reply