The insurrection committee's public hearings

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Unagi
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Unagi »

malchior wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:10 am
Unagi wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:28 amIt sounded like malchior was impressed that El Guapo used the word correctly.
It is the term-of-art for this particular line of discussion during forensic/incident response activities. I expect people to get the concept of metadata but it just spoke to me about experience in eDiscovery/investigation contexts.
Ok. I get that.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

OCR makes no sense, unless it's the font. It recognized the "i" and "l" but used a font that the printer didn't have so the printer just omitted those letters. So the electronic file looks fine but the printed version is missing the letters. I've seen that happen before, where OCR mixes font, even at the letter level across a document.


Or maybe now the printer alone having trouble with the font, no OCR needed.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by malchior »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:34 am OCR makes no sense, unless it's the font. It recognized the "i" and "l" but used a font that the printer didn't have so the printer just omitted those letters. So the electronic file looks fine but the printed version is missing the letters. I've seen that happen before, where OCR mixes font, even at the letter level across a document.


Or maybe now the printer alone having trouble with the font, no OCR needed.
Yes to all this. This was what I was getting at. We've seen this happen with print-to-scan-to-electronic conversions due to issues with the OCR predominantly. But other variations on the theme fit too. Printer doesn't like the font is another example. A lot of investigations are conducted by folks doing things over and over with set and forget set ups. They tend to work most times but sometimes introduce errors based on tiny variations in parameters. It's fairly common and the pattern suggested to us, based on observable characteristics that it was something along those lines. That's all I was ever saying and it was way more likely it was that than some ham-fisted attempt to obfuscate.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

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hepcat wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:53 am
El Guapo wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:10 pm
malchior wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:08 pm Metadata. Interesting choice of a word. So what you are saying is you've worked this stuff? :)
I'm a lawyer.
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Just because I know what metadata is doesn't mean that I am not also eager to discuss all the important things in life.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Carpet_pissr »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:15 am
hepcat wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:53 am
El Guapo wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:10 pm
malchior wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:08 pm Metadata. Interesting choice of a word. So what you are saying is you've worked this stuff? :)
I'm a lawyer.
Don’t be offended. Because you graciously converse with me about such things as the acting abilities of Mark Wahlberg (or lack thereof), the importance of Z level comic book characters in a post industrial society, and why green milk would be super cool, it’s easy for others to assume you’re also 9.
Just because I know what metadata is doesn't mean that I am not also eager to discuss all the important things in life.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

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Unagi wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 6:53 am Is metadata really that mysterious?
The new Zuckerberg thing? I don't know much about it.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Kraken »

Unagi wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:24 am
malchior wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:10 am
Unagi wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:28 amIt sounded like malchior was impressed that El Guapo used the word correctly.
It is the term-of-art for this particular line of discussion during forensic/incident response activities. I expect people to get the concept of metadata but it just spoke to me about experience in eDiscovery/investigation contexts.
Ok. I get that.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Holman »

Come to think of it, Zuckerberg's avatar kind of does look like Meta Data.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Jaymon »

Yeah, this one is just formatting error. But its still good to dig into it, because these days its getting really hard to tell the difference between standard idiocy and malevolent idiocy.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Smoove_B »


Former President Trump has refused to comply with the Select Committee’s subpoena requiring him to appear for a deposition.

His attorneys have made no attempt to negotiate an appearance, and his lawsuit parades out many of the same arguments that courts have rejected repeatedly.

Donald Trump orchestrated a scheme to overturn a presidential election and block the transfer of power. He is obligated to provide answers to the American people.

The committee will evaluate next steps in the litigation and regarding the former President’s noncompliance.
/sigh
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Pyperkub »

It would seem as if they should have anticipated this and instead of the quote:
The committee will evaluate next steps in the litigation and regarding the former President’s noncompliance.
Should have had those next steps ALREADY planned out...
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by naednek »

Pyperkub wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:19 pm It would seem as if they should have anticipated this and instead of the quote:
The committee will evaluate next steps in the litigation and regarding the former President’s noncompliance.
Should have had those next steps ALREADY planned out...
dude, it's government :P
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by hepcat »

hepcat wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:26 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:52 pm Maybe 1% chance at most that that happens. Almost certainly this is just to generate a headline, either because Trump's team wants to make it look like he wants to cooperate (before breaking things off because "those radical leftists won't agree to basic protections and have made it clear that this is a witch hunt") and/or because Trump is worried that he looks like a pussy.

*Only* way this happens is if Trump's ego requires him to not punk out, and I really don't think that happens.
I would say it's 0 percent chance. There is no way in hell a lawyer would let Trump on a stand, under oath. And he does listen to his lawyers. That much can be said.
Trump under oath for something like this won’t happen in our lifetime. He would be unable to stop himself from lying because I honestly think he believes most of the shit he just makes up. There’s not one decent lawyer in this world that would let that happen.

Now, if he were to hire Rudy “Wind Breaker” Guiliani….
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by malchior »

Washington Post

Hold off on the Liz Cheney hagiographies. She is gutting the report especially discussions about right-wing threats the 1/6 committee discovered and intelligence agency failures that led to 1/6. Emphasis added to the section below.

Later in the article Lofgren says everything will be published so this could be butthurt about the *composition of the report* but we'll see. However, I can only imagine the urge to leak any cut material is off the charts. I hope it leaks. We don't need corrupt gatekeepers any longer.
Since Rep. Liz Cheney accepted House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s offer to serve as the vice chair of the House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol, the Wyoming Republican has exerted a remarkable level of control over much of the committee’s public and private work.

Now, less than six weeks before the conclusion of the committee’s work, Cheney’s influence over the committee’s final report has rankled many current and former committee staff. They are angered and disillusioned by Cheney’s push to focus the report primarily on former president Donald Trump, and have bristled at the committee morphing into what they have come to view as the vehicle for the outgoing Wyoming lawmaker’s political future.

Fifteen former and current staffers, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations, expressed concerns that important findings unrelated to Trump will not become available to the American public.

...

Several committee staff members were floored earlier this month when they were told that a draft report would focus almost entirely on Trump and the work of the committee’s Gold Team, excluding reams of other investigative work.

Potentially left on the cutting room floor, or relegated to an appendix, were many revelations from the Blue Team — the group that dug into the law enforcement and intelligence community’s failure to assess the looming threat and prepare for the well-forecast attack on the Capitol. The proposed report would also cut back on much of the work of the Green Team, which looked at financing for the Jan. 6 attack, and the Purple Team, which examined militia groups and extremism.

“We all came from prestigious jobs, dropping what we were doing because we were told this would be an important fact-finding investigation that would inform the public,” said one former committee staffer. “But when [the committee] became a Cheney 2024 campaign, many of us became discouraged.”

...

Adler added, “Some staff have submitted subpar material for the report that reflects long-held liberal biases about federal law enforcement, Republicans, and sociological issues outside the scope of the Select Committee’s work. She won’t sign onto any ‘narrative’ that suggests Republicans are inherently racist or smears men and women in law enforcement, or suggests every American who believes God has blessed America is a white supremacist.”
And the below? The report only has to call out the illegal? How about the legal things that led to violence? There is value in reporting all factors. I've seen this type of institutional thinking many times - they become blind spots which adversaries use against you.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Pulled the curtain back a little too much, eh? :P
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Pyperkub »

It would seem that part of a Congressional inquiry should call out the currently legal aid which led to the incident so that Congress can (in theory) debate new laws to prevent it... example being clearing up the Electoral College act as had been discussed.

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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

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Not sure where this should go, so here it is:

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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Alefroth »

That is some serious snub.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by malchior »

One of those guys literally shook his head at McConnell.

Edit: I see that some are Brian Sicknick's family and his brother (lifelong Republican) explained his position.

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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Pyperkub »

Committee making Criminal Referrals to DoJ...
The House select committee investigating the January 6, 2021, attack on the US Capitol has decided to make criminal referrals to the Department of Justice, the panel’s chairman, Rep. Bennie Thompson, told reporters Tuesday.

Thompson, a Mississippi Democrat, said the committee has not narrowed down the universe of individuals who may be referred.

January 6 committee member says entirety of panel's work will be released in coming weeks

Asked whether Thompson believed any witnesses perjured themselves, he said, “that’s part of the discussion.”

When the panel makes referrals, Thompson said it will be a separate document from the panel’s final report that will be sent to DOJ.

The committee is expected to meet later Tuesday.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Octavious »

Probably refer everyone except for Trump. Because he's magical. And then nothing will come of any of this anyway. But at least it's documented? Yay
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by El Guapo »

Octavious wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:15 pm Probably refer everyone except for Trump. Because he's magical. And then nothing will come of any of this anyway. But at least it's documented? Yay
I dunno. My expectation is that they probably would refer Trump. But that nothing would come of it anyway.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:08 pm
Octavious wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:15 pm Probably refer everyone except for Trump. Because he's magical. And then nothing will come of any of this anyway. But at least it's documented? Yay
I dunno. My expectation is that they probably would refer Trump. But that nothing would come of it anyway.
It's strikes me that back in June Thompson explicitly said the committee wouldn't refer anything out and would leave it up to DOJ. Part of the math changing there is losing the House but I imagine trust in Garland is in the basement with them as well. They're making a point of things. It isn't hard to puzzle out that DOJ pretty much only took on the slam dunk case referred out (Bannon) and gave the 1/6 committee very little air support when rampant lawlessness came to town. Ultimately my expectation is any referral is purely for the headlines at this point. Which is probably as good as it'll get.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:36 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:08 pm
Octavious wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:15 pm Probably refer everyone except for Trump. Because he's magical. And then nothing will come of any of this anyway. But at least it's documented? Yay
I dunno. My expectation is that they probably would refer Trump. But that nothing would come of it anyway.
It's strikes me that back in June Thompson explicitly said the committee wouldn't refer anything out and would leave it up to DOJ. Part of the math changing there is losing the House but I imagine trust in Garland is in the basement with them as well. They're making a point of things. It isn't hard to puzzle out that DOJ pretty much only took on the slam dunk case referred out (Bannon) and gave the 1/6 committee very little air support when rampant lawlessness came to town. Ultimately my expectation is any referral is purely for the headlines at this point. Which is probably as good as it'll get.
Yeah, it's not crazy to think that the announced referrals are tied to a lack of faith in Garland / DOJ, and are intended to put pressure on him. Which is part of why I'd be very surprised if the referrals didn't include Trump himself - if they made criminal referrals without referring Trump, that would probably deflate the chances of any indictment of Trump, and would be considerably worse than the committee not making any referrals at all.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by malchior »

This is nuts.

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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by stessier »

Just to be clear, you think how he was treated is nuts and agree they all should be seen as heroes?
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by malchior »

stessier wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:14 pm Just to be clear, you think how he was treated is nuts and agree they all should be seen as heroes?
Correct. That there are officers heckling a guy who helped fight off a riot against our democracy is nuts. It really goes to the point that police departments are riddled with deeply bad officers. I agree with Figliuzzi that there needs to be an investigation by the department. I hadn't heard he had been having issues but I'm not completely surprised either.

Edit: For those unaware Fanone essentially went undercover over the last year and a half or so and acted like a modern day Frank Serpico. He recorded conversations with Republican and police leadership that indicated they personally supported folks like him but wouldn't speak publicly about the insurrection. What his fellow officers are upset about are is the disloyalty because he broke the omerta-like blue line of silence. This is the outcome/expression of the more corrupt side of police and related political culture where even in DC the police are as he describes internally racially divided -- black cops often supported him and white officers would literally turn their backs on him -- and full of officers who are MAGats and/or downplay the insurrection.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by malchior »

It'll probably fall on deaf ears (or more accurately hands tightly clamped over ears humming the DOJ fight song) but this grouping makes sense.

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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Grifman »

Boom, a lot of people involved:

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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by malchior »

My questions naturally would be held accountable by who though? TPM does good work but it's hardly the NYT. Whatever they hold isn't going to be seen by many. If we mean, accountability by the DOJ, that seems unlikely. DOJ is only now doing basic fact finding 2 years later. There has been almost no accountability versus constant and public rampant lawlessness. What does calls for accountability even mean anymore?
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Kurth »

Also, how is this really groundbreaking? Again I’m struck by the extent to which all of this is known. It was all out in the open for everyone to see. These dirtbags didn’t hide what they were trying to do. It was open and notorious.

I guess it’s nice we have the texts now for posterity, but this hardly moves the needle. And it’s a joke to think that this is going to result in accountability at this stage. I echo malchior’s sentiment: “Accountable to who?”
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by El Guapo »

The main problem being that I imagine that most / all of these GOP officials have the plausible argument that they understood "fight" to be metaphorical, and that they were just encouraging the administration to pursue all legal means of reviewing the election. There's really only plausible criminal liability if there's some specific evidence that they understood that a riot / capitol invasion was part of the plan.

And setting aside criminal liability, the only means of "accountability" is political. Only I imagine that a lot of these GOP officials represent like R+20 jurisdictions with primary voters insulated from hearing the full story by the Fox News / conservative media bubbl.

Which leaves us....not much.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Carpet_pissr »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:26 pm The main problem being that I imagine that most / all of these GOP officials have the plausible argument that they understood "fight" to be metaphorical, and that they were just encouraging the administration to pursue all legal means of reviewing the election. There's really only plausible criminal liability if there's some specific evidence that they understood that a riot / capitol invasion was part of the plan.

And setting aside criminal liability, the only means of "accountability" is political. Only I imagine that a lot of these GOP officials represent like R+20 jurisdictions with primary voters insulated from hearing the full story by the Fox News / conservative media bubbl.

Which leaves us....not much.
Right. I suspect MANY if not most of these types are well ahead of the curve in terms of truly understanding that we are past "repercussions" except in the most extreme examples. They know that our tenuous reliance on people following norms is a loophole for them, or at worst, completely dead at this point. I think it's just the rest of us (media, anyone that follows politics closely) that either choose not to want to see things how they are, or can't believe it (or maybe a smidgeon of both).

We often here make fun of "these types" as boobs to be made fun of, but in this particular arena, they had it figured out long ago, and knew the system that previously WOULD have held them accountable, is no longer there.

All that, or they are so full of self-importance that they feel (rightly, but for maybe the wrong reason) untouchable.

I just don't think it's a coincidence that we are seeing multiple, different pols speaking with seeming impunity (both electorally, and legally), almost in a recent wave over the past few years. At some point someone realized there was a crack in the Wall of Political Norms. They worried it until it was a hole, then called their buddies with sledge hammers to finish the job. What we are seeing recently are the berserkers flooding over the remnants (with the aim of storming the castle).
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Blackhawk »

Almost time for a new thread. Jan. 6 Committee Refers Former President Trump for Criminal Prosecution
The House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol accused former President Donald J. Trump on Monday of inciting insurrection, conspiracy to defraud the United States, obstruction of an act of Congress and one more federal crime as it referred him to the Justice Department for potential prosecution.

[...]


The panel referred five other Trump allies — Mark Meadows, his final chief of staff, and the lawyers Rudolph W. Giuliani, John Eastman, Jeffrey Clark and Kenneth Chesebro — for potential prosecution for actions the committee said warranted Justice Department investigation.
Also, the headline on Fox is Hunter Biden.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Octavious »

We got him!
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

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Correction: Garland has him.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Kraken »

Insurrection is the biggie. If he's convicted of that, the 14th Amendment says
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Blackhawk wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:34 pm Correction: Garland has him.
Garland has a recommendation to investigate.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by RunningMn9 »

Literally nothing will come from that. It won’t even be a footnote in history.
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Re: The insurrection committee's public hearings

Post by Blackhawk »

Exactly my point. This isn't victory, it's just the question being passed along.
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