Mold downstairs. Options?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:28 pm

I live in a 19th century house that has been divided into three apartments. Two are downstairs, and one is upstairs, straddling both. Our bedroom and kitchen are above apartment #2, and the living room, kid's room, and bathroom are over apartment #1.

Apartment #1 is occupied and well kept. We know the occupant and communicate regularly.

Apartment #2 has been vacant for 15+ years. It flooded a few years ago, but we thought it had been cleaned up.

I just recently found out that from a neighbor who apartment was in there that apartment #2 is packed with mold. She said that it was thick across the walls (she was talking a half inch plus thick.) . That apartment is vacant and dark, plus is kept closed with no power or airflow. And given that Indiana is hot and very humid, it won't have gotten any better.

I can also tell you that our landlady will not address it. She will kick us out and shut down the building before she spends that kind of money.

As I said, our bedroom is right above it. We have not seen any signs of mold upstairs, but our walls are full of cracks and crevices, the floors are old wood and creaky enough to let us know that they leak air like crazy (our bedroom is the hottest room in the house because of leakage from downstairs.) What work has been done in the past was poorly done, leaving all sorts of gaps.

We're on the way to talk with our doctor right now concerning this and our son's really bad allergies.

What are our options?

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:41 pm

Move.
Threaten the landlady.
Try to clean the mold yourself.
Remove the walls in the infected areas.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:43 pm

Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

gilraen · Post by **gilraen** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:50 pm

Sorry but in my opinion you are screwed one way or another. Mold spores will travel through the cracks, so it doesn't mean anything that you don't see mold upstairs. If it's really as bad as your neighbor described, you are breathing that shit every day. You can legally withhold rent until the issue is fixed, but at that point, like you said, your landlady would just kick you out. This is more of a "vacate immediately" level of contamination.

So unless you are ready to start looking for a place to move, you can look at "band-aid" fixes like buying a whole-room UV-C lamp and running it in the bedroom a couple times a week, to kill as many live spores as possible.

hitbyambulance · Post by **hitbyambulance** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:54 pm

i was going to suggest 'burn it down' myself...

this is a real health hazard. taking extreme action to address this _will_ be necessary (but as to what form that 'extreme action' should take...)

i'm of the mind to suggest start looking for a new place, then when that's secured, report yr current slumlady to the authorities

sorry you have yet another thing to deal with.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:55 pm

Caveat that I don't know landlord-tenant law in Indiana, but if you wanted to force the issue with the landlord it likely wouldn't be as simple as she could kick you out (at least not right away). She might have more options if your lease is coming up or if you're month-to-month, but if you've got some time left on your lease you could try withholding rent until she fixes it. Even if her revenge on you is to kick you out at the end of the lease, you've saved some money and can look into alternate housing. Again, though, that's me speculating without knowing all of the facts or the state of landlord-tenant law in Indiana.

I strongly recommend checking with the state bar to see if there's an organization that protects tenants in Indiana. Even though you live pretty remotely, when I was in law school we had a clinic that would help low income people in rural Illinois, and I know there are other orgs in Illinois that do the same. I'd be surprised if there weren't someone you could talk to in Indiana.

Anonymous Bosch · Post by **Anonymous Bosch** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:57 pm

How to Get Your Landlord to Fix a Mold Problem

The good news is, Indiana is one of the few states that have taken steps toward establishing permissible mold standards, guidelines, and regulations regarding mold in rental properties; have a butcher's at this write-up from Nolo.com for further info:

Nolo.com wrote:Tenant Self-Help Strategies in Indiana

Courts have recognized two common legal self-help strategies that some tenants choose to pursue following a mold outbreak in their apartment or rental home. The first, known as "rent withholding," is when tenants decide to stop paying rent, claiming the mold has made their apartment uninhabitable. (Note that regardless of what may appear in a written lease with tenants, landlords in Indiana are bound by the "implied warranty of habitability," a legal doctrine that requires providing tenants with apartments in livable condition.) The second strategy, known as "repair and deduct," involves tenants taking care of mold cleanup on their own and then subtracting the cost from their rent.

Indiana's state law has not codified these strategies, and so they may pose a challenge for tenants to pursue. See Indiana Tenant Rights to Withhold Rent or 'Repair and Deduct' for more information.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:57 pm

Yeah, not good. I'd want to know if the mold is inactive or active (i.e. currently dormant or still growing), but either way I wouldn't want to be living above (or below) a room (or apartment) that is carpeted with mold - spores/toxins are still likely being released either way.

FEMA advice is for anything greater than 25 sq feet, you should be getting a professional in to mitigate the problem. If the whole apartment is covered, it sounds like it needs professional evaluation. While we're constantly exposed to and breathing in mold spores, you definitely don't want to be living in an environment that is actively hosting that kind of growth.

Nothing you're going to try and do as a renter living above it will in any way mitigate the issue because spores...spores find a way.

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:10 pm

Black mold almost killed one of my DIL. She wasn't supposed to recover but unfortunately she did. Then my stepson divorced her.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:12 pm

See what the local health inspector says too. Just reporting the issue may do the trick...

hitbyambulance · Post by **hitbyambulance** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:14 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:55 pm Caveat that I don't know landlord-tenant law in Indiana, but if you wanted to force the issue with the landlord it likely wouldn't be as simple as she could kick you out (at least not right away). She might have more options if your lease is coming up or if you're month-to-month, but if you've got some time left on your lease you could try withholding rent until she fixes it. Even if her revenge on you is to kick you out at the end of the lease, you've saved some money and can look into alternate housing. Again, though, that's me speculating without knowing all of the facts or the state of landlord-tenant law in Indiana.

and +1 to this. if you lived here on the left coast, it would take at least six months to get evicted even if the property owner _was_ in the right. in this sort of situation, the local authorities would swarm her to get it fixed or run her out of business or some such consequence. you would probably get free relocation assistance, in any case.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:16 pm

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:12 pm See what the local health inspector says too. Just reporting the issue may do the trick...

As someone that once wore that mantle, it depends...

I'm not familiar enough with rental laws in his state to say anything specific. Generally speaking, laws covering renters are good, but I don't know the agency involved with enforcing things in his area. In different towns I've worked it's been me. Sometimes it was kicked over to housing/construction. Sometimes up to the county.

The link Bosch shared with tenant's rights in his state is probably the best start.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:20 pm

See this is why I need a big old lotto win. Id give you money to move. No shit. But thats a dream so Im no help.

hitbyambulance · Post by **hitbyambulance** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:20 pm

https://www.therossfoundationcommunity.org/

this is the Indianapolis based and centered tenants rights union (among other community work), but i'm sure they could help point out resources and help for you.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:23 pm

Our rent is monthly, and it is a private individual, not a company.

The problem is that we can not move. Our landlady is behind the times - our rent is around 2/3 to 1/2 of the market value. We do not qualify for assistance, and would never be able to pay off our debts and keep up with expenses if we moved. We'd likely be defaulting on debts and filing for bankruptcy within a year or two. I've done the math.

Believe me, I have been looking for a way to move for years. We are still four people with a full disability check, a partial check from my autistic so, and Michelle's manual labor income. The excessively low rent {$400 per month for a 2 bedroom) has us locked in until something changes.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:26 pm

FWIW, whether I was pushing her on it, pursuing legal options, or anonymously reporting it, the result would likely be the same: us having to move out. We can't move.

Hell, we couldn't even afford the truck to move with.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:32 pm

If the government condemns the place, you’re out on the street. If the mold debilitates or kills you or your family…

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:36 pm

Do you think there is any chance the landlord and Apt 1 may be up for something like:

Apt 1 gets to make full use of Apt 2 space if they pay for a clean up, but no increase to their rent.

?

I’m trying to think of a way where everyone may come out ahead. Landlord wouldn’t be missing any rent.
That would be entirely up to apt 1, though and I imagine they are not sitting on a pile of cash either.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:42 pm

Apt 1 is the landlady's neice, and is only at home one or two days a week.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:42 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:32 pm If the government condemns the place, you’re out on the street.

If it's officially condemned (assuming his state works like mine), they'd have to pay for relocation. That doesn't address ability to pay new rent though.

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:36 pm Do you think there is any chance the landlord and Apt 1 may be up for something like:

Apt 1 gets to make full use of Apt 2 space if they pay for a clean up, but no increase to their rent.

Thousands, possibly tens of thousands. When I was selling my last home, the buyer pointed out some mold in the garage. It was probably like 5 sq feet in total spread across a 10 foot stretch on one wall. I had a mold specialist come in to tell me it wasn't hazardous but it would eat away at the wall. I want to say it was a $2000 quote for him to come in to remove and repair. For BH's situation, it sounds like complete demolition and removal, plus verifying there's no additional water coming in. Then replacing all the materials. All done while having the area tarped, ventilated and workers in SCBA.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:43 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:32 pm If the government condemns the place, you’re out on the street. If the mold debilitates or kills you or your family…

Try floating that to my family, including my autistic son who would go into a perpetual panic state - and that isn't hyperbole.

Freyland · Post by **Freyland** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:01 pm

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:10 pm Black mold almost killed one of my DIL. She wasn't supposed to recover but unfortunately she did. Then my stepson divorced her.

Are you trying to add Marriage Counseling to his list of mold expenses?

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:10 pm

I'd try to get a look at the apartment yourself, just to know what you're dealing with.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:26 pm FWIW, whether I was pushing her on it, pursuing legal options, or anonymously reporting it, the result would likely be the same: us having to move out. We can't move.

Hell, we couldn't even afford the truck to move with.

You can probably afford the health issues that come with that kind of growth far less than a move. It is quite literally a toxic situation.

You have a few things in favor of a move. Mainly, your income is pretty much the same mo matter whee you live. Within the state at least, not sure about nationally but I'd wager you'd get similar or better benefits in Illinois. Manual labor travels well.

There may be some obstacles but your current situation sounds like an undeniable health threat that dwarfs any of them.

But again, verify the extent of the issue.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:13 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:43 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:32 pm If the government condemns the place, you’re out on the street. If the mold debilitates or kills you or your family…
Try floating that to my family, including my autistic son who would go into a perpetual panic state - and that isn't hyperbole.

It's not an either or. You move out. Whether that happens before someone gets sick or after someone gets sick is the only question.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:17 pm

I move out, I have four people living in the car. And we can't leave the immediate area due to an elderly relative who currently lives two blocks away who relies on us for almost everything.

And no, we can't move in with her, as she is in special housing.

Until our income goes up, we literally can't live somewhere else.

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:21 pm

Tents?
Travel trailer?
Both?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:24 pm

Until?

We can't afford local rents with our expenses, which we have already trimmed as much as possible.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:26 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:17 pm I move out, I have four people living in the car. And we can't leave the immediate area due to an elderly relative who currently lives two blocks away who relies on us for almost everything.

And no, we can't move in with her, as she is in special housing.

Until our income goes up, we literally can't live somewhere else.

Get some good air purifiers *for mold* if you can find a way to afford them (you may not be able to afford not to, in the longer term). Check Craigslist and other spots for used (tho make sure you can get parts for older ones). High HEPA *mold* standards, 'natch.

Here are some recommendations for 2022 models:

No matter the case, you should always pay attention to what you’re buying this device for. There are air purifiers made for every purpose. Mold is highly stubborn and doesn’t get out as easily. Therefore, if you’re looking for something for this problem, choose the best air purifier for mold and viruses that is solely made for that. Since mold exists in areas with moisture so if your house has leakages, they would likely be found in your house.

Note, that was just the first good looking result in my DDG search, do a bit of research.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:28 pm

Again, contact a tenants' rights organization. They'll be able to help you make a more informed decision.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:48 pm

If she was forced to fix it, she would just kick them all out.
So, unless one of his rights was to get a grant for fixing it, then I don’t think that will pan out, if I am following what BH has said.

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:49 pm

I'm seeing a Daehawk/Blackhawk commune situation in the near future.......

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:52 pm

It's almost like our country's support system for our most needy is... bad.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:59 pm

Perhaps a stupid question: would it do any good to apply three or four thick coats of paint to every wall and floor in the apartment? Paint it very thick as a sealant from the space below? Or is there perhaps a sealant (better than paint) actually designed for this purpose?

Or is mold too smart for that?

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:06 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:59 pm Perhaps a stupid question: would it do any good to apply three or four thick coats of paint to every wall and floor in the apartment? Paint it very thick as a sealant from the space below? Or is there perhaps a sealant (better than paint) actually designed for this purpose?

Or is mold too smart for that?

https://www.kilz.com/primer/kilz-mold--mildew

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:08 pm

Start looking for another housing option. Better to have time to look and get on a list than to end up homeless because someone gets very sick. If the unit below is that bad, you’ve been feeling the effects for some time. You may just not realize it.

The next option may cost more but be covered by a program. Mention your current situation to any government/aid programs, as that may help you get placed faster.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:15 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:59 pm Or is mold too smart for that?

Kilz is good as a preventative in bathrooms and kitchens, but it's not a barrier encapsulation product. I guess in theory you could slather on enough paint (and caulk) to prevent air/spore migration via drafts, but the trick would be to find them all. And then as the paint and caulk dries, you'd need to reseal it. Focusing on areas where you know there's a draft might make some sense (if there's air drafting through the wall cutouts for plumbing or the outlets), but I honestly can't say I've seen thick paint suggested as a way to help against mold issues (or anything) with units in a multi-family setting

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:16 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:28 pmI just recently found out that from a neighbor who apartment was in there that apartment #2 is packed with mold.

Before you do anything, I would make sure this is accurate. At this point it's hearsay. For something that could have such drastic consequences for you, you need to confirm that there is mold.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:19 pm

Zarathud wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:08 pm Start looking for another housing option. Better to have time to look and get on a list than to end up homeless because someone gets very sick. If the unit below is that bad, you’ve been feeling the effects for some time. You may just not realize it.

The next option may cost more but be covered by a program. Mention your current situation to any government/aid programs, as that may help you get placed faster.

Or downsize to get a rent you can afford. Yes, that will suck but it is better than living above a giant toxic spore farm.

But I'll reiterate, try to get eyes on it yourself. If it really has been abandoned and left to rot it may be even worse than described. Or it may be exaggerated.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:28 pm

We genuinely couldn't downsize much, (we have zero free space), and even studios here cost more than our current rent.

I am working on options to further reduce expenses to get us out sooner, but it will be years, mostly because of a time a couple of years ago when Michelle was unemployed for almost six months and we had to make up for the income loss with our credit card. Right now our interest is more than half of what we pay for rent. Once we can get that paid off, we will be able to afford to move.

hitbyambulance · Post by **hitbyambulance** » Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:35 pm

this is some bad news. really bad. i would even insert an expletive in there. personally, i think this is worse than even bedbugs (which is my own nightmare of living situation problems)

not to pile on... but... if what has been relayed to you is correct: you know that contingency plan you might have had in place when if, say, slumlady died, the property was sold in the estate and the new buyers decide to kick out all the current tenants and tear down the existing structure for redevelopment?

this is the time for that plan

the structure is as good as condemned in that current state (if, again, the rumor is true). the building might not even be really worth the $XKs of mold abatement treatment/repairs/upgrades/preventatives/etc.

contact a number of agencies for advice and see what they say.