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Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:39 am
by Grifman
Scraper wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:12 pm
Holman wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:05 pm Does the vote for Speaker involve the whole House, or is it just within the majority party?

If the former, how hard would it be for Dems to join 2 or 3 moderate Republicans in electing a somewhat moderate Speaker?

(I know, I'm fantasizing about a functional representative government.)
That is incorrect. They are the Speaker of the House, not one party. It requires a vote of the entire House.

It's just the majority party, that's why there's also a minority speaker.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:41 am
by Grifman
Of course Kari Lake won’t concede:

https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm ... 5364bc296f

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:54 am
by malchior
Grifman wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:41 am Of course Kari Lake won’t concede:

https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm ... 5364bc296f
Yeah - even Master's conceded despite his constant whining about the whole thing.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:20 am
by Kurth
Grifman wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:41 am Of course Kari Lake won’t concede:

https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm ... 5364bc296f
This is all about setting things up for the Trump/Lake ticket.

MAGAts hate those who lose, but they love those who refuse to concede.

Hell, for them refusing to concede may even be better than winning. Let’s them get 100% on board the grievance train.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:47 am
by malchior
Interesting data. The swing voters came over despite being unhappy with Biden. Abortion, 1/6, and social issues propelled the Democrats to victories. Still the margins were thin and we'll see if the impact of Dobbs which appeared to be outsized will become a long-term stable shift or not.


Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:51 pm
by Grifman
It’s not over!


Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:13 am
by Defiant

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:21 am
by malchior

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:53 am
by malchior
It's getting worse in AZ. At least the current GOP governor is working on a transition (which is earning him a lot of scorn).




Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 3:34 am
by Jaymann
Happy Thanksgiving!

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:11 am
by LawBeefaroni
malchior wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:53 am



"One commentator on gettr"? That deserves amplification?

"Drunk guy in bar calls Biden a Nazi!"

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:41 am
by malchior
FWIW I think that is more about reporting the tenor of the conversation. Search Maricopa County on Twitter and you'll see a lot of big voices including Trump and family calling for overturning the AZ election and encouraging various actions.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:34 am
by Daehawk
The guy has never been able to accept that he is a loser and nothing more.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:47 am
by LawBeefaroni
malchior wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:41 am FWIW I think that is more about reporting the tenor of the conversation. Search Maricopa County on Twitter and you'll see a lot of big voices including Trump and family calling for overturning the AZ election and encouraging various actions.
Well, it's notable if Trump calls for taking up arms against the FBI. Not some random nutjob on gettr.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:02 am
by malchior
LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:47 am
malchior wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:41 am FWIW I think that is more about reporting the tenor of the conversation. Search Maricopa County on Twitter and you'll see a lot of big voices including Trump and family calling for overturning the AZ election and encouraging various actions.
Well, it's notable if Trump calls for taking up arms against the FBI. Not some random nutjob on gettr.
Actually this appears to be a fair criticism. I went to Gettr. I found the post. It is the only reply!

That's mostly because Gettr appears to be the deadest platform. The top posts on the whole platform have 20 or 30 likes.

Later reposts yesterday and this morning for the same protest have zero or one reply each. A couple of the most recent ones tell people not to be baited into acting out by liberals into being violent. :?

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:56 pm
by Jaymann
That's refreshing: Arizona law says that counties don’t actually have the power to reject election results or refuse to certify. Yet.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:43 pm
by Grifman
Kari Lake calls for supporters to break the law:



I say, “You first, Kari!”

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:49 pm
by Kurth
Grifman wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:43 pm Kari Lake calls for supporters to break the law:



I say, “You first, Kari!”
Ridiculous. More Lake auditioning for the Trump/Lake 2024 ticket.

But that post drives me crazy. Lake’s stupid call for people to get arrested is dumb enough and outrageous enough on its own. Why do people have to try to make it worse by adding shit that’s not there. Lake’s not “calling for violence.” She’s just not. At least, not in that clip. And saying so is dishonest and stupid.

This kind of thing is not helpful. Why can’t people figure that out? :grund:

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:06 pm
by malchior
Kurth wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:49 pmBut that post drives me crazy. Lake’s stupid call for people to get arrested is dumb enough and outrageous enough on its own. Why do people have to try to make it worse by adding shit that’s not there. Lake’s not “calling for violence.” She’s just not. At least, not in that clip. And saying so is dishonest and stupid.

This kind of thing is not helpful. Why can’t people figure that out? :grund:
I don't get this take - like at all. The last person who made a *softer version* of this argument caused violence to break out. She's calling explicitly for people to commit crimes. It's a relatively straightforward comparison to the type of rhetoric that caused deadly violence. Is the only way to say she is 'calling for violence' literally if she directly says take up arms?

Edit: If she bounded this with any precautionary language it'd be a different story. You have to consider that we are two years out from 1/6 and the situation is worse. We had armed people guarding ballot boxes in this state. Then we have to consider the way the message is delivered, the audience it is meant for, an audience that overwhelmingly think elections are stolen, and who often think 1/6 was justified? It's a direct call for action that includes a foreseeable risk of real threat of violence.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:15 pm
by Kurth
malchior wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:06 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:49 pmBut that post drives me crazy. Lake’s stupid call for people to get arrested is dumb enough and outrageous enough on its own. Why do people have to try to make it worse by adding shit that’s not there. Lake’s not “calling for violence.” She’s just not. At least, not in that clip. And saying so is dishonest and stupid.

This kind of thing is not helpful. Why can’t people figure that out? :grund:
I don't get this take - like at all. The last person who made a *softer version* of this argument caused violence to break out. She's calling for people to commit crimes. It's a relatively straightforward comparison to the type of rhetoric that caused deadly violence. Is the only way to say she is 'calling for violence' literally if she directly says take up arms?
I don’t get why you are not getting my take - like at all.

It’s simple. A call for violence is a call for violence. Trump said a hell of a lot more (“Fight like hell!”) than Lake, and even then there was ambiguity.

If the poster wants to argue that Lake was making an implicit call for violence, than say it. But don’t tell me that Lake telling her supporters to not be afraid to get arrested for supporting her stupid and frivolous attempt to overthrow the election is “a call for violence.” It just isn’t.

People need to call it like it is. Stop fucking embellishing to suit your narrative. Stop taking shortcuts to make your point. Stop undermining your own credibility with bullshit.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:24 pm
by LordMortis
Grifman wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:43 pm Kari Lake calls for supporters to break the law:
I say arrest her, she doesn't care.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:33 pm
by malchior
Kurth wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:15 pm
malchior wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:06 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:49 pmBut that post drives me crazy. Lake’s stupid call for people to get arrested is dumb enough and outrageous enough on its own. Why do people have to try to make it worse by adding shit that’s not there. Lake’s not “calling for violence.” She’s just not. At least, not in that clip. And saying so is dishonest and stupid.

This kind of thing is not helpful. Why can’t people figure that out? :grund:
I don't get this take - like at all. The last person who made a *softer version* of this argument caused violence to break out. She's calling for people to commit crimes. It's a relatively straightforward comparison to the type of rhetoric that caused deadly violence. Is the only way to say she is 'calling for violence' literally if she directly says take up arms?
I don’t get why you are not getting my take - like at all.
I think you might be overanalyzing this.
It’s simple. A call for violence is a call for violence. Trump said a hell of a lot more (“Fight like hell!”) than Lake, and even then there was ambiguity.
Are you talking as a lawyer here to a legal definition? This isn't how I think folks will parse this. This call is directed to a population of people who intentionally talk in code. And even then it's actually more direct IMO than Trump's rhetoric. 'Fight like hell' was still dangerous but more ambiguous than a direct call for folks to eat some felonies for her. There isn't much peaceful protests that requires felonies. And even going that far is probably over analysis. :)

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:36 pm
by Alefroth
Yay for plausible deniability!

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:58 pm
by Holman
Yeah, it's all a game, but it's serious.

When an extreme politician calls for "action" against an election result, they fully understand that it will be parsed in different ways by different potential actors. Most supporters will understand it as a call for protest (at most) or just dissatisfaction and a motive for the next election.

But the violent extremists (and the GOP knows that they can count on some of these) will hear it very differently. Even if they don't use violence this time, the fact of the "call" normalizes the idea that violent action will be necessary soon. It's only a matter of time.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:15 pm
by Unagi
She is literally appealing to lawlessness without any ambiguity at all.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:47 pm
by malchior
Won't someone rid me of this meddlesome election result?

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:59 pm
by Kurth
malchior wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:33 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:15 pm
malchior wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:06 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:49 pmBut that post drives me crazy. Lake’s stupid call for people to get arrested is dumb enough and outrageous enough on its own. Why do people have to try to make it worse by adding shit that’s not there. Lake’s not “calling for violence.” She’s just not. At least, not in that clip. And saying so is dishonest and stupid.

This kind of thing is not helpful. Why can’t people figure that out? :grund:
I don't get this take - like at all. The last person who made a *softer version* of this argument caused violence to break out. She's calling for people to commit crimes. It's a relatively straightforward comparison to the type of rhetoric that caused deadly violence. Is the only way to say she is 'calling for violence' literally if she directly says take up arms?
I don’t get why you are not getting my take - like at all.
I think you might be overanalyzing this.
It’s simple. A call for violence is a call for violence. Trump said a hell of a lot more (“Fight like hell!”) than Lake, and even then there was ambiguity.
Are you talking as a lawyer here to a legal definition? This isn't how I think folks will parse this. This call is directed to a population of people who intentionally talk in code. And even then it's actually more direct IMO than Trump's rhetoric. 'Fight like hell' was still dangerous but more ambiguous than a direct call for folks to eat some felonies for her. There isn't much peaceful protests that requires felonies. And even going that far is probably over analysis. :)
A felony is anything punishable with a sentence over a year. Go check out Arizona's laws and attempted laws making many kinds of protests felonies.

There are endless ways for law enforcement to criminalize protests, including felony charges.

Look, I'm not trying to be overly technical here. I just think words matter. I've beat this drum before. If you want to say that Kari Lake called on supporters to commit felonies, do it. But she didn't incite violence, so don't say she did. Or if you want to argue she did so implicitly, have at it. But, again, don't say she said it if she didn't.

And I think you're wrong that this isn't how folks will parse this. Liberal leaning folks might be ok with it. They may give the poster the benefit of the doubt -- she's a liberal activist -- and they may just understand that she was arguing that this was an implicit call for violence. But that's not the whole world. And I'm not concerned about the credibility of liberal activists in the view of other liberals. I'm concerned that outside those circles, they lose credibility when they fuel OUTRAGE by stretching the truth -- especially when the truth is plenty outrageous. It's just stupid and unnecessary.

Also, I'm just talking about liberal activists here because that's the issue at hand. Obviously, this is a problem that's even worse with partisan commentators on the Right, and we've all seen that.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:45 pm
by Alefroth
Kurth wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:59 pm Or if you want to argue she did so implicitly, have at it. But, again, don't say she said it if she didn't.
Ohhhh, so you thought people were claiming she literally called for violence? I think the 'implicitly' was implied.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:41 pm
by Kurth
Alefroth wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:45 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:59 pm Or if you want to argue she did so implicitly, have at it. But, again, don't say she said it if she didn't.
Ohhhh, so you thought people were claiming she literally called for violence? I think the 'implicitly' was implied.
Well, then maybe it's just me.

When the poster tagged the FBI, the DOJ and DHS and said Lake issued a "call to violence" and for supporters to "fight the police," I thought, "Holy shit! That's terrible, even by Lake's standards. That's actually something the FBI, the DOJ or DHS might take immediate action on."

And then I watched the video of Lake saying she wanted people to protest the election results and risk getting arrested, and I thought, "Hmmm. That's not what I was expecting."

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:41 am
by malchior
Kurth wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:59 pmA felony is anything punishable with a sentence over a year. Go check out Arizona's laws and attempted laws making many kinds of protests felonies.

There are endless ways for law enforcement to criminalize protests, including felony charges.

Look, I'm not trying to be overly technical here.
Like I said you seem to be really overanalyzing this. I severely doubt the folks Kari Lake is talking to are scratching their heads wondering about the bright lines for a protest felony.
I just think words matter. I've beat this drum before. If you want to say that Kari Lake called on supporters to commit felonies, do it. But she didn't incite violence, so don't say she did. Or if you want to argue she did so implicitly, have at it. But, again, don't say she said it if she didn't.
This is an incredibly literal read though. Yes words have meanings. But context has meaning too. And I don't know how you can really discount the clear context of what her actions (e.g., election lawsuits), words, and tenor communicate in a post 1/6 world to her community.

Edit: It also strikes me on another re-watch that the video adds to that context right in the open on the screen - 'Real America's Voice' (the name of the outlet but also dual purpose as us vs. them messaging) on the bottom left and 'War Room' superimposed on an eagle over the American flag on the bottom right. None of this is random.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:57 pm
by pr0ner

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:15 pm
by Daehawk

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:29 pm
by Jaymann
Thursday’s hearing came after the board scrambled to find legal representation.

The county’s attorney declined to represent the supervisors in court, saying he believed their decision was unlawful.

Supervisors subsequently voted to hire an outside attorney who had represented them previously, but the attorney declined.

The board again convened just hours before the hearing to approve hiring Daniel McCauley III, a third attorney, but he was not present in the courtroom, and the judge indicated he had not filed a notice of appearance.

Supervisor Tom Crosby (R) asked for a delay of court proceedings until early next week so McCauley could attend, but the judge rejected the motion, leaving the supervisors to represent themselves.
The lawless refuseniks are running out of lawyers.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:27 pm
by Carpet_pissr
Kurth wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:41 pm
Alefroth wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:45 pm
Kurth wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:59 pm Or if you want to argue she did so implicitly, have at it. But, again, don't say she said it if she didn't.
Ohhhh, so you thought people were claiming she literally called for violence? I think the 'implicitly' was implied.
Well, then maybe it's just me.
Nope, it's not just you. It's the primary reason I stopped looking at Twitter for breaking political news. I guess the algos had nailed me as a liberal, and were feeding me all kinds of shit that were FAR more egregrious than this mild example. Some of them were so disgusting I wondered if the posters just assumed people wouldn't watch the videos for themselves, or read the docs, or whatever, and just trust the poster.

Agree that the non-crazies HAVE to call it straight to avoid anyone left in the middle or on the sidelines to believe "well they both lie". This pisses me off MIGHTILY. I don't even like a soupçon of implication or whatever argument you guys are trying to make out of this. She did NOT call for violence. Case closed, sorry.

Call out the fucked up shit she DID say, it's horrible enough without sensetionalizing.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:54 pm
by YellowKing
The latest example I saw of this was a friend of mine who sent me a tweet that stated a sheriff in Florida wanted to bring back "tearing the asses off" of kids in school "just like the old days". My friend was outraged, and of course my first reaction was total outrage as well. Then I clicked on the video.

What the sheriff *actually* said was the exact opposite. He said that kids these days know they're NOT going to get "their asses tore off" for causing trouble in school, so they were more likely to misbehave. While he was advocating tighter discipline in school to prevent kids from going to jail, he certainly wasn't advocating corporal punishment. While I didn't necessarily agree with some of his positions, he was completely misrepresented.

You can't be better than the other guy if you're just going to engage in the same tactics.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:41 pm
by RunningMn9
I mean I saw those tweets, and my recollection was that his position was that kids don’t fear having their asses torn off these days. Which is what he said. While it’s true that he didn’t say “I think these kids should fear having their asses torn off”, there’s an implication.

If you are talking about what to do about X, and you are talking about X didn’t use to happen because of Y, there’s an implication that you might be pro Y.

There are a lot of other ways to make the point, that don’t include his language choices. There are reasons that he used those words. He could have easily just pointed out that one of the problems today is that kids don’t face any consequences for misbehaving. Same idea, opens a conversation about what consequences might work today.

Instead, he let us know what consequences he thinks worked in the past, and I don’t think I’m going out on a limb concluding that he thinks they’d work today if it wasn’t for pussy liberals.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:46 pm
by Blackhawk
RunningMn9 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:41 pm While it’s true that he didn’t say “I think these kids should fear having their asses torn off”, there’s an implication.
I looked it up, and had the same impression. I took it as a "the problem with kids these days is..." with the unspoken suggestion being that the solution is to go back to the way things were. You know, when America was Great.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:33 am
by Defiant
A twitter thread on someone's experiences voting in Georgia:



https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1598 ... 68704.html

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:15 pm
by YellowKing
RunningMn9 wrote:If you are talking about what to do about X, and you are talking about X didn’t use to happen because of Y, there’s an implication that you might be pro Y.
There's a difference between inferring what someone said, and tweeting your inference as *actually* what they said.

Re: 2022 Midterm Election

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:26 pm
by Carpet_pissr
YellowKing wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:15 pm
RunningMn9 wrote:If you are talking about what to do about X, and you are talking about X didn’t use to happen because of Y, there’s an implication that you might be pro Y.
There's a difference between inferring what someone said, and tweeting your inference as *actually* what they said.
This.