Civil War II

[WYBaugh]

Checking in from Desantis land.

I live in a fairly nice neighborhood with an HOA. We discovered back in the 2020 election that yard signs are not allowed (brings down property value) but flags are permitted.

At the front of our neighborhood is a house that routinely flies the confederate battle flag and the Gadsen flag. They also have black neighbors. There is another house half a block down from this that has 4 huge flag poles (2 in the front, 2 in the back) with 2 flags each with fuck biden, trump 2024, etc. These have been up since 2019.

Since October all of the known magats have been putting yard signs up for Desantis et al with no repercussions, I'm assuming, since they are still up. Throughout the entire three sections of our neighborhood, it is only our part that have yard signs at all.

What's weird, and I'm getting to in a round about way, is there are no Crist or any democratic leaning signs. This appears to be the norm through all of Jacksonville that I drive through.

Is it at the point where people are afraid to have a yard sign on who their supporting unless it's republican?

[Jaymann]

Reminds me of when my mom put a Wallace sticker on her car in Alabama.

[Kurth]

Checking in from Desantis land.

I live in a fairly nice neighborhood with an HOA. We discovered back in the 2020 election that yard signs are not allowed (brings down property value) but flags are permitted.

At the front of our neighborhood is a house that routinely flies the confederate battle flag and the Gadsen flag. They also have black neighbors. There is another house half a block down from this that has 4 huge flag poles (2 in the front, 2 in the back) with 2 flags each with fuck biden, trump 2024, etc. These have been up since 2019.

Since October all of the known magats have been putting yard signs up for Desantis et al with no repercussions I'm assuming since they are still up. Throughout the entire three sections of our neighborhood, it is only our part that have yard signs at all.

What's weird, and I'm getting to in a round about way, is there are no Crist or any democratic leaning signs. This appears to be the norm through all of Jacksonville that I drive through.

Is it at the point where people are afraid to have a yard sign on who their supporting unless it's republican?

My whole family lives in and around Jacksonville (Mandarin and just over the line in St. Johns). We're going to visit in December for the holidays, and I'm already bracing myself for the signs. Every time we're there, when I go out for a run, it just seems like TRUMP and Let's Go Brandon and Thin Blue Line signs, one after another.

[noxiousdog]

Is it at the point where people are afraid to have a yard sign on who their supporting unless it's republican?

Yes. I already am. I'm not sure it's just because of Republicans, but I'm way more afraid of my R neighbors than D.

[WYBaugh]

Checking in from Desantis land.

I live in a fairly nice neighborhood with an HOA. We discovered back in the 2020 election that yard signs are not allowed (brings down property value) but flags are permitted.

At the front of our neighborhood is a house that routinely flies the confederate battle flag and the Gadsen flag. They also have black neighbors. There is another house half a block down from this that has 4 huge flag poles (2 in the front, 2 in the back) with 2 flags each with fuck biden, trump 2024, etc. These have been up since 2019.

Since October all of the known magats have been putting yard signs up for Desantis et al with no repercussions I'm assuming since they are still up. Throughout the entire three sections of our neighborhood, it is only our part that have yard signs at all.

What's weird, and I'm getting to in a round about way, is there are no Crist or any democratic leaning signs. This appears to be the norm through all of Jacksonville that I drive through.

Is it at the point where people are afraid to have a yard sign on who their supporting unless it's republican?

My whole family lives in and around Jacksonville (Mandarin and just over the line in St. Johns). We're going to visit in December for the holidays, and I'm already bracing myself for the signs. Every time we're there, when I go out for a run, it just seems like TRUMP and Let's Go Brandon and Thin Blue Line signs, one after another.

I live in very southern Duval County (Bartram Park area) and yeah, it's crazy.

[WYBaugh]

Is it at the point where people are afraid to have a yard sign on who their supporting unless it's republican?

Yes. I already am. I'm not sure it's just because of Republicans, but I'm way more afraid of my R neighbors than D.

I thought about putting a Crist sign up as a litmus test to see how long it would take me to get threatening letters but I couldn't find one.

Unfortunately the immediate neighbors know my stance so I'm effed if violence starts.

[Smoove_B]

They can't keep making money if their logistics and economics are put at risk. Look how much Ukraine affected global economic markets. The US? it's not even conceivable really. Why do you think so many corporations hopped on the BLM train? It certainly wasn't any sense of morality.

Alternatively, look at how they did (and still) continue to make money during the largest global crisis in over a century. They raise prices and then airlift whatever is needed to continue to churn out widgets. I don't expect the variety or volume to be at classic consumerism levels, but I now fully believe corporations will do whatever they can to continue to make money while society implodes.

[noxiousdog]

They can't keep making money if their logistics and economics are put at risk. Look how much Ukraine affected global economic markets. The US? it's not even conceivable really. Why do you think so many corporations hopped on the BLM train? It certainly wasn't any sense of morality.

Alternatively, look at how they did (and still) continue to make money during the largest global crisis in over a century. They raise prices and then airlift whatever is needed to continue to churn out widgets. I don't expect the variety or volume to be at classic consumerism levels, but I now fully believe corporations will do whatever they can to continue to make money while society implodes.

The short answer is yes, they will. The problem is that it will be impossible and the wealth destruction will be immense. Isgrimnur gave exactly the right answer.

But think about it. Who is going to disneyland in the middle of a civil war? Buy property?

It becomes basic needs and that's it. The American consumer shuts down.

[Smoove_B]

Oh yeah, eventually it's all going to implode. I guess I am thinking about what will the transition from now until [total Mad Max] look like? Even if roads and bridges are taken out, they'll just pay for private air drops (early on). Whatever it takes to keep making money.

This also assumes the rest of the world is going "back to normal" and able to feed the corporations what they need to keep running. If there are other things going on impacting global markets? Then I have no idea what "civil war" in America looks like. But in a world where corporations can still make money? They'll keep doing it as Americans tear themselves apart.

[YellowKing]

Is it at the point where people are afraid to have a yard sign on who their supporting unless it's republican?

A lot of folks on the left also aren't crazy cultists who pay money for a freaking flag of their favorite politician. We have two people in the neighborhood that have either TRUMP: NO MORE BULLSHIT or TRUMP 2024 gigantic flag banners hanging in their garage. It takes a special kind of idiot bully attention whore person to go to that extreme to show off their political views.

I'm not scared to put a Biden sign in my yard, I just have ZERO motivation to do so. It's none of any of my neighbors business who I voted for, and I'm not enough of an asshole to want to shout it at them whether they want to know or not.

[WYBaugh]

Is it at the point where people are afraid to have a yard sign on who their supporting unless it's republican?

A lot of folks on the left also aren't crazy cultists who pay money for a freaking flag of their favorite politician. We have two people in the neighborhood that have either TRUMP: NO MORE BULLSHIT or TRUMP 2024 gigantic flag banners hanging in their garage. It takes a special kind of idiot bully attention whore person to go to that extreme to show off their political views.

I'm not scared to put a Biden sign in my yard, I just have ZERO motivation to do so. It's none of any of my neighbors business who I voted for, and I'm not enough of an asshole to want to shout it at them whether they want to know or not.

Totally agree but in the not too distant past, it was fun to have up who you were pulling for. Back when you had a favorite but it wouldn't be world ending if the other guy got in office.

This isn't a competition against the trump cultists because that's what they want. It's more of a reflection, to me, of how it's has impacted people.

[Smoove_B]

I've mentioned it elsewhere, but my neighbor put up a "Trump / Pence 2020" campaign sign in his yard at some point late last year. It was down in early 2021 but for whatever reason it's up again. I don't think he got the memo on Pence though. It's just...weird to see. He also has a giant Blue Lives Matter flag in his yard too, making sure to remain consistent.

I'd say since 2020 it's pretty unusual to see any signs but there are some that are still out. Definitely nature's way of saying "Look out".

[WYBaugh]

I've mentioned it elsewhere, but my neighbor put up a "Trump / Pence 2020" campaign sign in his yard at some point late last year. It was down in early 2021 but for whatever reason it's up again. I don't think he got the memo on Pence though. It's just...weird to see. He also has a giant Blue Lives Matter flag in his yard too, making sure to remain consistent.

I'd say since 2020 it's pretty unusual to see any signs but there are some that are still out. Definitely nature's way of saying "Look out".

I've noticed as well, that anyone having an American flag constantly out is also a warning sign, which is just sad.

[YellowKing]

Totally agree but in the not too distant past, it was fun to have up who you were pulling for.

Yeah I should have clarified I was talking about these weird permanent signs/flags not associated with an upcoming election. I don't have a problem with election signs for an impending election to promote your candidate. It's these banners year-round that make me think these people have a screw loose.

[WYBaugh]

Totally agree but in the not too distant past, it was fun to have up who you were pulling for.

Yeah I should have clarified I was talking about these weird permanent signs/flags not associated with an upcoming election. I don't have a problem with election signs for an impending election to promote your candidate. It's these banners year-round that make me think these people have a screw loose.

Absolutely. I'm irrationally angry every time I drive in or go for a walk seeing the two aholes' houses for the past 3 years.

[Kurth]

Is it at the point where people are afraid to have a yard sign on who their supporting unless it's republican?

A lot of folks on the left also aren't crazy cultists who pay money for a freaking flag of their favorite politician. We have two people in the neighborhood that have either TRUMP: NO MORE BULLSHIT or TRUMP 2024 gigantic flag banners hanging in their garage. It takes a special kind of idiot bully attention whore person to go to that extreme to show off their political views.

I'm not scared to put a Biden sign in my yard, I just have ZERO motivation to do so. It's none of any of my neighbors business who I voted for, and I'm not enough of an asshole to want to shout it at them whether they want to know or not.

This is how I feel about yard signs and bumper stickers and all that stuff. In part, I just tend to be a private person who doesn’t really want to share my views with the entire world (OO doesn’t count). Also, in part, I think I worry about how I’d make other people feel, and I wouldn’t want to fly a flag or plaster a bumper sticker on my car that would make other people feel uncomfortable. Unfortunately, I think that’s exactly the point when I see people with their “Let’s Go Brandon” stickers on their cars.

[LordMortis]

I'm not saying there's no threat - the militia movement very much bears keeping an eye on. They DO occasionally get feisty, though as far as I know they've never done so in an urban center. But when it comes to getting people into the streets to fight with the cops, the Right is significantly behind the curve. (not because the Left is especially violent or anything - it's just demographic distribution)

https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-case ... ty-bombing

Is it at the point where people are afraid to have a yard sign on who their supporting unless it's republican?

I'm a little nervous about just going to vote with a mask on tomorrow. Today I'm feeling like I should have registered for absentee voting. I may even have to take xanax just to go vote and I'm not full of my usual hyperbole here.

I'd say since 2020 it's pretty unusual to see any signs but there are some that are still out. Definitely nature's way of saying "Look out".

Don't tread on them.

Absolutely. I'm irrationally angry every time I drive in or go for a walk seeing the two aholes' houses for the past 3 years.

I'm not alone! Praise pancake!

[YellowKing]

Yeah Kurth that's a great point. I think it's just another example of how these people are constantly trying to provoke a reaction, argument, or fight. I don't get these people's obsession with constant provocation.

I told the story on here before about the guy with the Trump banner at the front of the neighborhood angrily confronting me for sitting in my car on a public street waiting to drop my daughter off at her bus stop. These people are constantly looking for a fight, and they don't really care what form it takes. They're just walking meat bags of hate and anger.

[Kurth]

On the matter of left-wing violence, this is a pretty good read from November 2021: Anarchist/Left-Wing Violent Extremism in America:
Trends in Radicalization, Recruitment, and Mobilization

It’s from the George Washington University Program on Extremism.

[Isgrimnur]

I think corporations will stand for "civil war" as long as they can keep making money. For me, this future looks like disrupted commerce - the ability to safely (and cheaply) move widgets around the United States for people to buy. If there's chaos, I'd imagine corporations are going to just focus on selling things closer to where they're produced and/or making sure goods are delivered only to areas (regions) that are being held together and filled with people that can still pay. This of course will continue to drive a wedge between the haves and have-nots, escalating violence as people fight to get "stuff".

It's almost like the origin story of some type of fractured American landscape - where we break apart over the resources we need that are unable to be sold easily between states.

I maintain as long as there's TV and internet to keep people entertained and numb, nothing changes. People will eat dog food as long as the TV is still delivering new content.

They can't keep making money if their logistics and economics are put at risk. Look how much Ukraine affected global economic markets. The US? it's not even conceivable really. Why do you think so many corporations hopped on the BLM train? It certainly wasn't any sense of morality.

How many bridges are there on the major interstates?

See that's the thing. If the wingnutz attack or try to control a bridge or a specific point of infrastructure, it gives the military a convenient target to crush them or at least round them up. Are some of them looking to be martyrs? Assuredly so. But how many want to actually give up their weekend redneck war games for the real thing.

Doesn't need to be wingnutz. See Greg Abbott's border 'inspections' or Christie's lane closures.

[Little Raven]

https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-case ... ty-bombing

Thing is, Timothy McVeigh was never actually part of any militia. The FBI ripped his life apart and as far as they can tell, the entire operation consisted of McVeigh and his roommate. He was paranoid about including anyone else for fear that they would rat him out. (And he was entirely justified - just look at what happened to the MENSA candidates who thought kidnapping Whitmer would be a good idea. If your militia consists of more than 4 people, you can be reasonably certain that at least one of them is a government informant. That's no big deal for the most part - militias are actually given wide latitude to legally operate in our system, but you start talking about illegal violence and that hammer can come down QUICK.)

[Alefroth]

I think corporations will stand for "civil war" as long as they can keep making money.

That's what I see as more likely. Monetize it any way they can. I just don't think relying on corporations to be our saviors is realistic.

[malchior]

Yeah Kurth that's a great point. I think it's just another example of how these people are constantly trying to provoke a reaction, argument, or fight. I don't get these people's obsession with constant provocation.

Because they have persistently for years told each other that there are more of them than anyone else. More than we'd believe. So they are turning up the noise to make it look true.

I told the story on here before about the guy with the Trump banner at the front of the neighborhood angrily confronting me for sitting in my car on a public street waiting to drop my daughter off at her bus stop. These people are constantly looking for a fight, and they don't really care what form it takes. They're just walking meat bags of hate and anger.

This is key. Underneath all of this is anger. It's all lizard brain. They've been fed a steady diet of lies about all the reasons why they should be angry. The browns are invading. Their jobs are being killed by the libs. Their way of life is always under attack. They've been loaded up with hate/anger and we finally have people willing to take their peasant mob and use it.

[Grifman]

I've mentioned it elsewhere, but my neighbor put up a "Trump / Pence 2020" campaign sign in his yard at some point late last year. It was down in early 2021 but for whatever reason it's up again. I don't think he got the memo on Pence though. It's just...weird to see. He also has a giant Blue Lives Matter flag in his yard too, making sure to remain consistent.

I'd say since 2020 it's pretty unusual to see any signs but there are some that are still out. Definitely nature's way of saying "Look out".

I've noticed as well, that anyone having an American flag constantly out is also a warning sign, which is just sad.

That’s warped, a lot vets fly flags, as my father did, and I fly a flag because he put up a pole and gave me a flag to fly.

[Smoove_B]

It wasn't always that way. But these days people that have flags out 24/7 (not even properly displayed with lights illuminating them at night) are 90% garbage people. At least from what I've seen. I know anecdotes aren't evidence but in my corner of 'merica I will take that bet every time.

[YellowKing]

Yeah I used to fly an American flag but stopped. I don't necessarily react to others flying it in a negative way, but for me personally it felt fraudulent to fly it when I no longer believed in the direction the country was headed. Whether that's right or wrong, it was my own small form of protest. Sort of like Johnny Cash wearing black.

[em2nought]

At the front of our neighborhood is a house that routinely flies the confederate battle flag and the Gadsen flag.

There is nothing wrong with a Gadsden flag.

[Jaymann]

And there was nothing wrong with the swastika until some proud white men in Germany got ahold of it.

[Holman]

At the front of our neighborhood is a house that routinely flies the confederate battle flag and the Gadsen flag.

There is nothing wrong with a Gadsden flag.

The Gadsden flag has long-since been co-opted by militias. 95% of people flying it are aware of that. At best, they're still doing it in the spirit of the birther Tea Party rather than the spirit of January 6.

[malchior]

If your militia consists of more than 4 people, you can be reasonably certain that at least one of them is a government informant.

This is simply not true. It's not even close to true. There are hundreds of white supremacists militias (estimated between 500-700). The estimates are that they have tens of thousands of people. Are you legitimately claiming all or even a lot of them are infiltrated with agents or informers? It's pretty unlikely. One big problem with this hypothesis is we don't even get a good accounting about how many there are. We also have several stories about how the FBI ignored the threat as it rose by focusing too much attention on international terrorism and that likely limits visibility. Public accounts seem to indicate that.

We only have inference level reporting about many of them. Southern Poverty Law Center said they've tracked a decrease in the *number of groups* they track in the last couple of years. However, we don't know if that is because they went underground, consolidated, or disbanded. Worse the reason we are somewhat blind beyond the lack of focus was the previous administration helped them hide. The Trump administration tried to obstruct accounting of the theat. A whistleblower said Trump DHS politicos ordered them to bury a report about the activities of white supremacist militias.

There have been many detailed reports about how they think local law enforcement has been infiltrated by white supremacists and militia members. So it's not even that we can hope they are infilitrated. They have actually "reverse infiltrated" into local law enforcement (and I'd also argue Secret Service which has pockets of problem personnel and general ethics problems).

That's no big deal for the most part - militias are actually given wide latitude to legally operate in our system, but you start talking about illegal violence and that hammer can come down QUICK.)

No big deal? White supremacists and related militias are the nation's top internal security threat. That's bad when we as noted have large intelligence gaps that turn it into whack-a-mole activity and the rare operations where they do get an insider into a group and peel it apart. The Whitmer case was a good example of that. Even then the federal prosecution partially fell apart because the agent involved was compromised.

Even when we get advanced warning, for example Secret Service receiving advanced credible warnings of militia and domestic terror threats around 1/6, they still failed to act.

A Secret Service spokesperson told The Post in a statement that it was “in constant communication and sharing information with our law enforcement partners.” Yet even within its parent Cabinet agency, the Department of Homeland Security, little was done to avert the assault. The documents, lawmakers have pointed out, also throw doubt on the credibility of closed-door testimony from presidential detail leader Robert Engel and from Tony Ornato — a Secret Service leader who received an unprecedented appointment to the political role of White House deputy chief of staff. Beyond the question of what the Secret Service knew ahead of the attack, and what did it do with that knowledge, it is also important to learn what its agents saw of the president’s actions during the riot at the Capitol.

[Little Raven]

Are you legitimately claiming all or even a lot of them are infiltrated with agents or informers?

I absolutely am. Mostly because it's remarkably easy to become a government informer - you don't even have to take a class. All you have to do is talk to the cops, and by some strange coincidence many militia members in this country end up doing that on a fairly frequent basis.

Consider the case of the Wolverine Watchmen, the group that was going to kidnap Whitmer. This group is TINY - maybe a few dozen members. It's so small and so unremarkable that Jon Lewis, a research fellow at the Program on Extremism at George Washington University, said his organization had never heard of them. And yet the FBI admits they had at least 5 informants in the group, with defense attorney's presenting evidence of at least 5 more. Think about that for a second. A militia so small and unremarkable that most counter-extremist organizations hadn't even bothered to make a note of it had at LEAST 5 government informants in it. That's how utterly compromised the militia movement in this country is. If you're in a militia and you don't assume that every meeting has AT LEAST 2 informants in it, then you're an idiot.

Mind you, most militias are FINE with this, because most militias are a great deal smarter than the Wolverine Watchmen. They know that as long as they don't do anything mind-bogglingly stupid, the law can't touch them, so there's no need to worry about the informants.

No big deal? White supremacists and related militias are the nation's top internal security threat.

Sure, but what that really says is that we're a nation with very few internal security threats. Note that for all your talk of their terrifying capability - militias haven't actually DONE much of anything. The most drastic action we've seen out of them is what...Malhuer? They do a lot of preparing, and they talk a lot about how they'll be ready when the time comes.....but evidently it hasn't come yet. Even January 6th does not appear to qualify as a "militia" action - over 900 people have been charged with their role in the events of that day, and only a handful have belonged to any militia movement. I'm not saying we ignore them or anything - there's a damn good reason we keep such a close eye on them. The potential for badness is there. But so far, they haven't even managed a CHOP-level event, let alone something larger.

[Kurth]

It wasn't always that way. But these days people that have flags out 24/7 (not even properly displayed with lights illuminating them at night) are 90% garbage people. At least from what I've seen. I know anecdotes aren't evidence but in my corner of 'merica I will take that bet every time.

That's a little rough. I keep a flag out from Memorial Day to Labor Day. I don't take it in at night, and I don't have it illuminated with lights all night. I try to take it in when it rains, but in the summer months here, that's pretty infrequent. I do it because I still care about this country, warts and all, and it pays respects to those in my family who served in the military, including my grandfather who was a bombardier on a B-17 and flew daylight bombing missions over Germany during WWII.

I'm guessing more than a few of the people you are referring to as "garbage people" are similarly motivated.

[malchior]

Are you legitimately claiming all or even a lot of them are infiltrated with agents or informers?

I absolutely am. Mostly because it's remarkably easy to become a government informer - you don't even have to take a class. All you have to do is talk to the cops, and by some strange coincidence many militia members in this country end up doing that on a fairly frequent basis.

Consider the case of the Wolverine Watchmen, the group that was going to kidnap Whitmer. This group is TINY - maybe a few dozen members. It's so small and so unremarkable that Jon Lewis, a research fellow at the Program on Extremism at George Washington University, said his organization had never heard of them. And yet the FBI admits they had at least 5 informants in the group, with defense attorney's presenting evidence of at least 5 more. Think about that for a second. A militia so small and unremarkable that most counter-extremist organizations hadn't even bothered to make a note of it had at LEAST 5 government informants in it. That's how utterly compromised the militia movement in this country is. If you're in a militia and you don't assume that every meeting has AT LEAST 2 informants in it, then you're an idiot.

It happened in this case. It must be happening in every militia. The many hundreds of them.

Mind you, most militias are FINE with this, because most militias are a great deal smarter than the Wolverine Watchmen. They know that as long as they don't do anything mind-bogglingly stupid, the law can't touch them, so there's no need to worry about the informants.

The (often paranoid) militias are fine with the undercover FBI agents because they have nothing to hide? I'd need some polling or something there (impossible I know) because I'm pretty confident that is ... not a real or common attitude.

No big deal? White supremacists and related militias are the nation's top internal security threat.

Sure, but what that really says is that we're a nation with very few internal security threats.

Very few internal security threats? Ask the Capitol Hill police if we have internal security problems. Or how about reading any of the many articles I linked and then go read some more.

Note that for all your talk of their terrifying capability - militias haven't actually DONE much of anything.

By "my talk", you mean the many articles I posted talking about their capabilities and pre-rebutting this?

The most drastic action we've seen out of them is what...url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupatio ... ife_Refuge]Malhuer[/url]? They do a lot of preparing, and they talk a lot about how they'll be ready when the time comes.....but evidently it hasn't come yet. Even January 6th does not appear to qualify as a "militia" action - over 900 people have been charged with their role in the events of that day, and only a handful have belonged to any militia movement. I'm not saying we ignore them or anything - there's a damn good reason we keep such a close eye on them. The potential for badness is there. But so far, they haven't even managed a CHOP-level event, let alone something larger.

Ah I see. Somehow militia activity at the core of 1/6 doesn't count. Or it's clear alignment to political signaling. Or the constant death threats against religious and ethnic groups, armed intimidation, occasional attacks, crimes, and related activity detailed out in the many articles you could read on the subject.

[Smoove_B]

I'm guessing more than a few of the people you are referring to as "garbage people" are similarly motivated.

Possibly. But they should consider following the flag code and illuminating at night or taking it inside. My grandfather mortared Nazis in WW2 at Anzio and during the Battle of the Bulge; the least I can do is shine a light on a flag at night.

My neighbor went out of his way to erect a flagpole in his yard in May of 2020. No illumination and magically never gets lowered when the President calls for it. I generally don't notice, but having seen it now for 2+ years every day, it's offensive. Maybe it's all the years in Scouting but it definitely bothers me

[Little Raven]

It happened in this case.

It's happened in every case I know of where militia are involved to date. The Feds knew all about Malheur before it happened. They were keeping tabs on Bundy long before the Battle of Bunkerville. Granted, none of those people were making any attempt at secrecy, (quite the opposite) but the Wolverine Watchmen sure as hell were, and it didn't do them much good.

I take it you know of some incidents where militia attacked and caught the Feds off guard? Do share.

The (often paranoid) militias are fine with the undercover FBI agents because they have nothing to hide?

Well, I mean, I'm sure many would prefer that it was not the case, but they damn well know that it is, and that there's nothing they can do about it. And remember, most militia members don't see themselves as acting in opposition to law enforcement, only CORRUPT law enforcement. (And THAT distinction gets just as knotted as you might imagine.) That's not true on the extreme fringe, of course, but the extreme fringe is also full of lunatics, criminals, and grifters - so once you're there you can't trust ANYONE for ANY reason. The Feds are honestly one of your smaller problems once you reach that point - a Klan member is much more likely to be killed by another Klan member than a cop.

Very few internal security threats? Ask the Capitol Hill police if we have internal security problems.

Of course we have problems. Heck, the Left you deride as toothless managed to unleash a wave of protests that killed almost 20 people and cost well over a billion dollars, but we stumble on regardless.

By "my talk", you mean the many articles I posted talking about their capabilities and pre-rebutting this?

Yes. I've read everything you posted, Mal. Everyone talks about their capabilities, the potential for danger, the need for vigilance. I don't really disagree with any of that- I'm all for keeping a close eye on these guys, and from what I can see the government is generally doing that. What I'm asking you for is a list of attacks that they have actually committed, particularly attacks that have caught the government off guard. None of what you've posted so far lists anything like that, but I assume you have that list somewhere. Data is your thing, remember?

Ah I see. Somehow militia activity at the core of 1/6 doesn't count.

Because it isn't there. At least, according the people who have actually studied it.

On January 6, a mob of about 800 stormed the U.S. Capitol in support of former President Donald Trump, and many people made quick assumptions regarding who the insurrectionists were. Because a number of the rioters prominently displayed symbols of right-wing militias, for instance, some experts called for a crackdown on such groups. Violence organized and carried out by far-right militant organizations is disturbing, but it at least falls into a category familiar to law enforcement and the general public. However, a closer look at the people suspected of taking part in the Capitol riot suggests a different and potentially far more dangerous problem: a new kind of violent mass movement in which more “normal” Trump supporters—middle-class and, in many cases, middle-aged people without obvious ties to the far right—joined with extremists in an attempt to overturn a presidential election.

To understand the events of January 6 and devise solutions to prevent their recurrence, Americans need a fine-grained comprehension of who attacked the Capitol. Understanding the ideology and beliefs of those who commit political violence is important, but so is knowing what kind of people they are and what their lives are like.

...

Second, a large majority of suspects in the Capitol riot have no connection to existing far-right militias, white-nationalist gangs, or other established violent organizations. We erred on the side of inclusion; we counted an arrestee as affiliated with such an organization if any court documents or news articles describe the person as a member, refer to social-media posts expressing an affinity for a certain group, or attest to patches or apparel that directly indicate support.

By these standards, 20 of the Capitol arrestees we studied— one-tenth—can be classified as supporters of gangs, militias, or militia-like groups such as the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, and Three Percenters. The role that such groups played in the riot has attracted considerable news coverage. But 89 percent of the arrestees have no apparent affiliation with any known militant organization.

Sure, some militia types were around, and by all accounts they were some of the most animated of the rioters. But January 6th was not ultimately not a product of the militia movement....it was something else, perpetrated by a group that had previously not engaged in such direct action. (and I would argue that this new group is much, MUCH more dangerous than the miltia movement ever has been - unlike the militias, these guys have an actual plan, which we're all watching play out)

[Kurth]

I'm guessing more than a few of the people you are referring to as "garbage people" are similarly motivated.

Possibly. But they should consider following the flag code and illuminating at night or taking it inside. My grandfather mortared Nazis in WW2 at Anzio and during the Battle of the Bulge; the least I can do is shine a light on a flag at night.

My neighbor went out of his way to erect a flagpole in his yard in May of 2020. No illumination and magically never gets lowered when the President calls for it. I generally don't notice, but having seen it now for 2+ years every day, it's offensive. Maybe it's all the years in Scouting but it definitely bothers me

Yeah, ok. Just seems like a pretty big leap to go from being annoyed that people aren't following Scouting flag protocols to a tee and concluding that such offenders are garbage people. I'm gonna assume that the guy across the street has made some other more significant offenses to get on your bad side.

[stessier]

I'm guessing more than a few of the people you are referring to as "garbage people" are similarly motivated.

Possibly. But they should consider following the flag code and illuminating at night or taking it inside. My grandfather mortared Nazis in WW2 at Anzio and during the Battle of the Bulge; the least I can do is shine a light on a flag at night.

My neighbor went out of his way to erect a flagpole in his yard in May of 2020. No illumination and magically never gets lowered when the President calls for it. I generally don't notice, but having seen it now for 2+ years every day, it's offensive. Maybe it's all the years in Scouting but it definitely bothers me

Yeah, ok. Just seems like a pretty big leap to go from being annoyed that people aren't following Scouting flag protocols to a tee and concluding that such offenders are garbage people. I'm gonna assume that the guy across the street has made some other more significant offenses to get on your bad side.

It's not the Boy Scout code - it's the US Flag Code.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?pat ... ion=prelim

Completely unenforceable (except for the military parts) and I think it's kinda crazy, but many people take it very seriously.

[LordMortis]

At the front of our neighborhood is a house that routinely flies the confederate battle flag and the Gadsen flag.

There is nothing wrong with a Gadsden flag.

The Gadsden flag has long-since been co-opted by militias. 95% of people flying it are aware of that. At best, they're still doing it in the spirit of the birther Tea Party rather than the spirit of January 6.

And there is nothing wrong with naming your small business liberty this or patriot that of freedom the other and there is nothing wrong with putting a black and white US flag on your truck, especially not one with a blue line down the middle. And there is nothing wrong with a flag cheering on Brandon. None of them are metaphorical warning signs of I'm alpha danger... I mean it's not like any of these things are, say, a rattlesnake warning you of impending pain, violence, or death or anything.

So yeah, I've been turned off or read the tea leaves of intimidation by the things I used to respect or sit in awe from. I'm sorry that I'd be wrong about Grifman and Kurth if I drove by their houses but they'd be in the minority around here, possibly noted by the fact that their flag isn't accompanied by other reinforcement like the pickup truck with gun decals or a gabsden flag hanging on the same flag pole or a reminder that you support the police or they have a motorcycle with an intentionally loud muffler etc... etc... etc...

I do want to reclaim my sense of patriotism. I'm not sure what would do it, though. I may be too old and jaded to find it again.

[malchior]

It's happened in every case I know of where militia are involved to date. The Feds knew all about Malheur before it happened. They were keeping tabs on Bundy long before the Battle of Bunkerville. Granted, none of those people were making any attempt at secrecy, (quite the opposite) but the Wolverine Watchmen sure as hell were, and it didn't do them much good.

So what?! Again we got here because you claimed all militias with more than 4 people had informants. And while I can't prove that isn't true...it's a heck of a claim.

Very few internal security threats? Ask the Capitol Hill police if we have internal security problems.

Of course we have problems. Heck, the Left you deride as toothless managed to unleash a wave of protests that killed almost 20 people and cost well over a billion dollars, but we stumble on regardless.

Non sequitur. Also, I claimed the left doesn't have the same capabilities as the right. Which as far as evidence goes is probably accurate.

By "my talk", you mean the many articles I posted talking about their capabilities and pre-rebutting this?

Yes. I've read everything you posted, Mal. Everyone talks about their capabilities, the potential for danger, the need for vigilance. I don't really disagree with any of that- I'm all for keeping a close eye on these guys, and from what I can see the government is generally doing that.

Well except for the contraindicators that that the government is doing that.

Ah I see. Somehow militia activity at the core of 1/6 doesn't count.

Because it isn't there. At least, according the people who have actually studied it.

Inconvenient for this statement is that a militia is at trial *right now* for seditionist conspiracy.

Sure, some militia types were around, and by all accounts they were some of the most animated of the rioters. But January 6th was not ultimately not a product of the militia movement

Wait...record scratch...where did I claim that? I said they were at the core of it which is very different. Several far-right prominent militias prepared for it extensively. They scouted and identified weak spots in the security. They coordinated between groups. But for the militias the mob might never have gotten into the Capitol. It also could have been crazy bad luck since the first 'window smasher' hasn't been tied to a militia. What we do know is that some folks beelined for the only un-upgraded windows in the facility. The timelines and evidence presented by the 1/6 committee and at the Oath Keepers trial indicate this.

....it was something else, perpetrated by a group that had previously not engaged in such direct action. (and I would argue that this new group is much, MUCH more dangerous than the miltia movement ever has been - unlike the militias, these guys have an actual plan, which we're all watching play out)

New group? Trump et. al. summoned a mob using disinformation and set them on the Capitol. In any case I don't quite understand why you artificially separate the militias out of this body. It feels like your viewpoint on militias is from pre-2016. It has changed quite a bit. But I also to some extent agree that militias aren't the biggest threat - as I said above they are more in the wings. 1/6 is a great example of bad actors leveraging them whether it was stochastic or an as yet undiscovered direct link.

[Smoove_B]

It's not the Boy Scout code - it's the US Flag Code.

Yeah, I should have clarified - it's the US Flag Code but as a Boy Scout we followed it when camping. Many of the fathers were former military so it was all just part of the process.

And maybe that's what's happened over the last 30+ years - more people that don't have military experience (or were influenced by people that did) are flying flags. And without the "ceremony" included with everything associated with having them displayed it's just another thing to them.

Never really thought of it that way...