Civil War II

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Kraken
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Civil War II

Post by Kraken »

The Guardian asks three pundits (I hesitate to anoint them experts), "How close are we to civil war?" Seems like a good excuse to seed a thread.

They all argue that we're pretty close. They're also all selling books. But their arguments are persuasive. One quote from each:
Civil war experts know that two factors put countries at high risk of civil war. The US has one of these risk factors and remains dangerously close to the second. Neither risk factor has diminished since 6 January. The first is ethnic factionalism. This happens when citizens in a country organise themselves into political parties based on ethnic, religious, or racial identity rather than ideology. The second is anocracy. This is when a government is neither fully democratic nor fully autocratic; it’s something in between. Civil wars almost never happen in full, healthy, strong democracies. They also seldom happen in full autocracies. Violence almost always breaks out in countries in the middle – those with weak and unstable pseudo-democracies. Anocracy plus factionalism is a dangerous mix.
Quasi-legitimacy is what leads to violence. And America’s political institutions are destined to become more and more quasi-legitimate from now on. One of the surest markers of incipient civil war in other countries is the legal system devolving from a non-partisan, truly national institution to a spoil of partisan war. That has already happened in the US.
As many white people (Republicans) confront the fear that by 2044 they’ll no longer be in the ethnic majority, they feel the need to take drastic measures to maintain white supremacy. It’s all they’ve ever known. It happened in the 1860s; what’s to prevent it from happening now?

Look for the next civil war to take place after the 2024 election cycle, when the next wave of violence is likely to emerge. Similar to the original civil war, there’s too much at stake for both sides. Then, as now, the threats are existential. In the 19th century, Democrats viewed the newly established Republican party as a threat to their way of life. Republicans, for their part, saw southern intransigence on the issue of slavery as a threat to the union.

Today, Republicans, driven by the existential threat of losing “their” (white) country, will continue their attack on democracy as a means towards preserving America for “real” Americans. Democrats, on the other hand, see the “Magafication” of the GOP as an existential threat to liberal democracy.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by dbt1949 »

Considering how many Trump supporters there are out there and how many right wing militias I think it may be closer than we think. I myself know of four right wing militias here in NW Arkansas and this is the liberal center of Arkansas.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Kraken »

I'm more interested in what it will look like than whether it will happen, because it's very likely coming after the 2024 elections.

It won't look like Civil War I. I expect that it will start with resistance cells making guerilla strikes against political targets and anti-insurgency militias putting them down with official collusion, while the occupation government pretends that this is all fine.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Jaymann »

As I see it, the issue will boil down to where the military stands. It seems any such conflict would start by right wingnuts (TM) seizing some government installation. It would seem it could only go one of two ways:

1. The military squashes the rebellion.

2. The military looks the other way (or even worse, joins them).

If it's #2, time to make a run for the border before it closes.

I still contend that insurrection is bad for business, and the corporate overlords will see that option #1 prevails.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Blackhawk »

It'll be a strange looking civil war given that most of the divisions aren't geographic (unless it is state-by-state, rural vs urban.) And it's philosophical, not ethnic or religious (not that religion doesn't play a part, but plenty of Democrats go to church, too.) It's hard to identify 'the enemy' unless they're wearing a shirt saying which team they're on. Yeah, the coasts have most of the blue states, and the south have lots of the red states, which is geographic, but it's misleading. Florida (for example) has almost as many Democrats as Republicans. It's only a 'red' state because of the manipulations, and most 'safe red' and 'safe blue' states are the same way. Armed insurrection doesn't benefit much from gerrymandering.

I can't visualize what a full-scale civil war would even look like. Widespread armed groups up to shenanigans (IE - January 6th in multiple state capitols, opposing politicians killed, etc) - that I can imagine. "The Troubles" style attacks, sure. Groups countering them, that I can see. But anything as focused as a 'war'?

It may happen, but I have no concept of what form it would actually take.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Alefroth »

Maybe it'll be a Cold Civil War.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Jaymann wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:20 aminsurrection is bad for business, and the corporate overlords will see that option #1 prevails.
Ayup. As our institutions fail around us, the one thing that has not faltered is the almighty dollar.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Little Raven »

These people are engaged in a bit of linguistic slight of hand. They lead with "Civil War" but quickly back down to "political violence." These two things are not the same.

To quote Wikipedia: "A civil war is a high-intensity conflict, often involving regular armed forces, that is sustained, organized and large-scale. Civil wars may result in large numbers of casualties and the consumption of significant resources."

We are absolutely nowhere remotely near that. Like, you can't see that from where we are, because the only way that can happen in this country is if the military splits - a scenario for which we have no evidence.

But political violence is absolutely on the table. Heck, we've seen a fair amount of it in the last few years, and it seems likely we'll see a fair bit more. It is something of an American tradition, after all. And should it return in force, it'll probably look a lot like the last time, though I imagine more social media will be involved.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Formix »

I'm honestly a little surprised that political assassinations haven't already happened. With how high the rhetorical heat is, and how accessible most of our politicians, judges, etc., are, it seems like where Civil War II, Proudboy Boogaloo might start.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by malchior »

Alefroth wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:51 am Maybe it'll be a Cold Civil War.
That's what we have now without a clear escalation path.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by LordMortis »

Little Raven wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:19 am These people are engaged in a bit of linguistic slight of hand. They lead with "Civil War" but quickly back down to "political violence." These two things are not the same.
I don't think civil war is our current trajectory. Political violence is already happening and I only imagine it increases. We have city wide riots and an an attempted mini insurrection. I can easily see us headed back to the late 60s, politically. Where we go from there? I dunno. I hope not to a cyberpunk dystopian police state with coporatocacy and private security flavorings but that is where my mind goes.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by El Guapo »

Little Raven wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:19 am These people are engaged in a bit of linguistic slight of hand. They lead with "Civil War" but quickly back down to "political violence." These two things are not the same.

To quote Wikipedia: "A civil war is a high-intensity conflict, often involving regular armed forces, that is sustained, organized and large-scale. Civil wars may result in large numbers of casualties and the consumption of significant resources."

We are absolutely nowhere remotely near that. Like, you can't see that from where we are, because the only way that can happen in this country is if the military splits - a scenario for which we have no evidence.

But political violence is absolutely on the table. Heck, we've seen a fair amount of it in the last few years, and it seems likely we'll see a fair bit more. It is something of an American tradition, after all. And should it return in force, it'll probably look a lot like the last time, though I imagine more social media will be involved.
This is correct.

I guess one semi-plausible scenario is that Trump or someone else consolidates a dictatorship, followed by an armed revolution / insurgency efforts to topple him.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by YellowKing »

Whatever form it takes, it's going to be crazies fighting crazies. The average American doesn't even care enough to vote. They're not going to get off the couch from Love is Blind Season 3 to risk their life for politics.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by noxiousdog »

Our corporations will never stand for civil war. That would cut off the political gravy train from both campaign donations and falling stock prices.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Kurth »

Jaymann wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:20 am As I see it, the issue will boil down to where the military stands. It seems any such conflict would start by right wingnuts (TM) seizing some government installation.
I think this is wrong. I certainly could see right wingnutz going this route (some of them have already tried, obviously), but if Trump runs and wins in 2024, can’t you see a significant chance that those on the left would lose their shit and get violent? Especially if Trump wins because of shenanigans.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Kraken »

Kurth wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:48 am
Jaymann wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:20 am As I see it, the issue will boil down to where the military stands. It seems any such conflict would start by right wingnuts (TM) seizing some government installation.
I think this is wrong. I certainly could see right wingnutz going this route (some of them have already tried, obviously), but if Trump runs and wins in 2024, can’t you see a significant chance that those on the left would lose their shit and get violent? Especially if Trump wins because of shenanigans.
I can envision trump (or a trumpist) losing in '24, being installed by "alternate electors" (i.e., key states overturning their own elections), and rubber-stamped by SCOTUS. Whereupon large numbers of left-leaning people demonstrate in the streets. When some of these protests turn violent, they are crushed without mercy by the illegitimate government. At that point, the protesters go underground and a long insurgency begins.

However, like YK said, >40% of Americans don't care enough about democracy to vote and won't even notice or care about its demise. To the extent that they pay attention at all, they'll support the occupation government's repression.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by LordMortis »

Kurth wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:48 am
Jaymann wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:20 am As I see it, the issue will boil down to where the military stands. It seems any such conflict would start by right wingnuts (TM) seizing some government installation.
I think this is wrong. I certainly could see right wingnutz going this route (some of them have already tried, obviously), but if Trump runs and wins in 2024, can’t you see a significant chance that those on the left would lose their shit and get violent? Especially if Trump wins because of shenanigans.
I can see right wing losing their shit and getting violent on loss. I don't see the left losing their shit on loss unless Trump wins under questionable circumstances. If he outright wins then I see left wing being a powder keg and getting violent only after the slightest provocation or even slight. But generally, either way political violence continues and likely escalates. I rather believe it's going escalate either way in 2023. Maybe we'll be lucky and indecent x will be a come to Jesus moment for the populace. Only if 1/6 wasn't that moment, I honestly don't know possibly could be. Calling in the military domestically and having them fire on civilians? Something more? Something less?
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Jaymann »

It will definitely be indecent.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Carpet_pissr »

For those suggesting that the left will get violent, what are you basing that on? (Serious q).

It seems like most of the violence or threats of violence to date have come from the right.

I haven’t even HEARD rumblings about violence from the left, much less actual instances. Or at least the ratio of right wing to left wing rhetoric/violence is overwhelmingly coming from one side.

Very aware that could be a bias based on the news I consume and choose to consume.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by YellowKing »

The left would demonstrate for a bit....then eventually go back home and we'd grudgingly live under 4 more years of an unfairly "elected" authoritarian.

I just have no faith in Americans as a whole to put on any kind of sustained effort to fight what we're seeing. And to be fair, we as Americans have been conditioned to express our disdain at the ballot box, not in the streets. And for decades, that has worked splendidly.

Now that fair elections are breaking down, how will we respond? My guess is "very slowly." I think the prevailing attitude of Trump 2024 would be "well, we'll just have to take Congress in 2026." And when that fails, "Well, we'll just have to win back the presidency in 2028." And when that fails....
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Re: Civil War II

Post by LordMortis »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:19 pm For those suggesting that the left will get violent, what are you basing that on? (Serious q).

It seems like most of the violence or threats of violence to date have come from the right.

I haven’t even HEARD rumblings about violence from the left, much less actual instances. Or at least the ratio of right wing to left wing rhetoric/violence is overwhelmingly coming from one side.

Very aware that could be a bias based on the news I consume and choose to consume.
Rioting broke out after Rittenhouses acquittal. Surprisingly (to me) there was none after the Supreme Court gutted RvW. That sort of restraint, I think,will be less likely should the GOP control all three "separate" branches of government.
YellowKing wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:29 pm Now that fair elections are breaking down, how will we respond? My guess is "very slowly." I think the prevailing attitude of Trump 2024 would be "well, we'll just have to take Congress in 2026." And when that fails, "Well, we'll just have to win back the presidency in 2028." And when that fails....
That's me! (even if I fear I'm more "well 2026 will just demonstrate how Congress can't get taken back and 2028 will just dirt on the US experiment in representative democracy") However, the young and those who have already been disenfranchised for most if not all their lives are not me.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Blackhawk »

Most of the left doesn't see violence as the answer to problems. A meaningful portion of the right does.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Alefroth »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:54 am Our corporations will never stand for civil war. That would cut off the political gravy train from both campaign donations and falling stock prices.
How will they stop it?
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Blackhawk »

Alefroth wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:27 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:54 am Our corporations will never stand for civil war. That would cut off the political gravy train from both campaign donations and falling stock prices.
How will they stop it?
The same way they helped start it - by manipulating people and paying politicians.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Alefroth »

Blackhawk wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:29 pm
Alefroth wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:27 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:54 am Our corporations will never stand for civil war. That would cut off the political gravy train from both campaign donations and falling stock prices.
How will they stop it?
The same way they helped start it - by manipulating people and paying politicians.
If that's the case, when do they start?
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Smoove_B »

I think corporations will stand for "civil war" as long as they can keep making money. For me, this future looks like disrupted commerce - the ability to safely (and cheaply) move widgets around the United States for people to buy. If there's chaos, I'd imagine corporations are going to just focus on selling things closer to where they're produced and/or making sure goods are delivered only to areas (regions) that are being held together and filled with people that can still pay. This of course will continue to drive a wedge between the haves and have-nots, escalating violence as people fight to get "stuff".

It's almost like the origin story of some type of fractured American landscape - where we break apart over the resources we need that are unable to be sold easily between states.

I maintain as long as there's TV and internet to keep people entertained and numb, nothing changes. People will eat dog food as long as the TV is still delivering new content.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Blackhawk »

The scary thing is that if it starts despite the corporations, the thing that will be 'in their best interest' will be to control the outcome, and that may not be the outcome we'd want.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Little Raven »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:19 pmFor those suggesting that the left will get violent, what are you basing that on? (Serious q).
The left is not always quiescent. And sometimes, they get quite persistent. I certainly consider the threat of violence from the right to be far higher at the moment, but that doesn't mean it's absent from the left - especially if they view themselves as losing power nationally.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by gbasden »

Little Raven wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:52 pm - especially if they view themselves as losing power having power stolen from them nationally.
FTFY
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Re: Civil War II

Post by malchior »

It's not if there is will or not on left. There is no *capacity* for sustained violence on the left. They don't have networks of militias. They don't have media outlets. The democratic party isn't built around implicit violence. The GOP is however. Unless we start seeing any hint of real organizational on the left appear this is sort of silly.

The threats from the left are disorganized protests or lone wolf actors. Easily crushed by the police or national guard if need be which are also mostly aligned with the right. The right also has paramilitary organizations - right now. The threat isn't just more likely from the right - it's capacity is orders of magnitude higher. Right now the federal government can't even handle them. They infiltrate them here or there but they are out there uncontrolled right now. And that's how it'll stand, waiting for activation if the political takeover under way doesn't work.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Little Raven »

malchior wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:58 pmThe threats from the left are disorganized protests or lone wolf actors.
Let's not sell the Left short here. Yes, the BLM movement was largely unfocused, but they ARE capable of organized action. The Siege of Portland lasted over 100 days - far longer than anything the Right has managed. (even Malhuer only lasted 40 days before the Feds cleaned em out) And CHOP was organized enough to set up an autonomous zone in the middle of a major American city that lasted well over a week - none of the trucker protests managed to be anywhere near as successful, at least on our side of the border.

Don't count the Left out yet. :lol:
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Kurth »

Little Raven wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:52 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:19 pmFor those suggesting that the left will get violent, what are you basing that on? (Serious q).
The left is not always quiescent. And sometimes, they get quite persistent. I certainly consider the threat of violence from the right to be far higher at the moment, but that doesn't mean it's absent from the left - especially if they view themselves as losing power nationally.
Living in the Portland metro area, the notion that the right is the only side disposed to violence is kind of laughable. The second link LR posted here is on point.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by El Guapo »

I think the broader point is that right wing political parties (including the GOP) have organized paramilitary groups that they could call into the streets in support of a bid for power. The Democratic Party does not. Left wing groups that are willing to engage in violence in general are disdainful at best of the Democratic Party.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by hepcat »

Little Raven wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:28 pm
malchior wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:58 pmThe threats from the left are disorganized protests or lone wolf actors.
Let's not sell the Left short here. Yes, the BLM movement was largely unfocused, but they ARE capable of organized action.
But it's an organized group that bases its protests and activism on racial injustice and grievances. As such, I don't see them doing anything unless it involved that critical component.

The left has antifa...and even that's a mostly unorganized, scattershot group of idealists with far less power (and numbers) than the right accuses them of having when they trot them out as some kind of liberal boogeyman.

As for CHOP, their success was based less on their ability to instill fear, organize, or whatever than it was local and federal law enforcement being overly wary due to nationwide reaction to documented racial injustices. This nation was a powder keg a few years ago...but it was due more to race issues than political ones (even though many would have liked to tie them together more closely).
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Was?
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Re: Civil War II

Post by noxiousdog »

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:41 pm I think corporations will stand for "civil war" as long as they can keep making money. For me, this future looks like disrupted commerce - the ability to safely (and cheaply) move widgets around the United States for people to buy. If there's chaos, I'd imagine corporations are going to just focus on selling things closer to where they're produced and/or making sure goods are delivered only to areas (regions) that are being held together and filled with people that can still pay. This of course will continue to drive a wedge between the haves and have-nots, escalating violence as people fight to get "stuff".

It's almost like the origin story of some type of fractured American landscape - where we break apart over the resources we need that are unable to be sold easily between states.

I maintain as long as there's TV and internet to keep people entertained and numb, nothing changes. People will eat dog food as long as the TV is still delivering new content.
They can't keep making money if their logistics and economics are put at risk. Look how much Ukraine affected global economic markets. The US? it's not even conceivable really. Why do you think so many corporations hopped on the BLM train? It certainly wasn't any sense of morality.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by hepcat »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:07 pmWas?
Oh, it's still bad. But it was REALLY bad after George Floyd's murder.
He won. Period.
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Little Raven »

El Guapo wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:46 pm I think the broader point is that right wing political parties (including the GOP) have organized paramilitary groups that they could call into the streets in support of a bid for power.
Maybe? That remains thankfully untested in the United States. It's one thing to have a group of guys who like running around the woods in camo and claiming to be the 3% - it's quite another to have that group cohesively answer a call from a politician, deploy themselves in a controlled fashion, and have them be willing to engage the powers that be. We've never seen anything like that from any private militia, even on Jan 6th. (I also think you vastly overestimate the loyalty most militia members feel towards the Republicans. The few that I know like SOME Republicans, but are decidedly chilly on the party as a whole.)

I'm not saying there's no threat - the militia movement very much bears keeping an eye on. They DO occasionally get feisty, though as far as I know they've never done so in an urban center. But when it comes to getting people into the streets to fight with the cops, the Right is significantly behind the curve. (not because the Left is especially violent or anything - it's just demographic distribution)
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Isgrimnur »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:10 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:41 pm I think corporations will stand for "civil war" as long as they can keep making money. For me, this future looks like disrupted commerce - the ability to safely (and cheaply) move widgets around the United States for people to buy. If there's chaos, I'd imagine corporations are going to just focus on selling things closer to where they're produced and/or making sure goods are delivered only to areas (regions) that are being held together and filled with people that can still pay. This of course will continue to drive a wedge between the haves and have-nots, escalating violence as people fight to get "stuff".

It's almost like the origin story of some type of fractured American landscape - where we break apart over the resources we need that are unable to be sold easily between states.

I maintain as long as there's TV and internet to keep people entertained and numb, nothing changes. People will eat dog food as long as the TV is still delivering new content.
They can't keep making money if their logistics and economics are put at risk. Look how much Ukraine affected global economic markets. The US? it's not even conceivable really. Why do you think so many corporations hopped on the BLM train? It certainly wasn't any sense of morality.
How many bridges are there on the major interstates?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Jaymann
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Re: Civil War II

Post by Jaymann »

Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:16 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:10 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:41 pm I think corporations will stand for "civil war" as long as they can keep making money. For me, this future looks like disrupted commerce - the ability to safely (and cheaply) move widgets around the United States for people to buy. If there's chaos, I'd imagine corporations are going to just focus on selling things closer to where they're produced and/or making sure goods are delivered only to areas (regions) that are being held together and filled with people that can still pay. This of course will continue to drive a wedge between the haves and have-nots, escalating violence as people fight to get "stuff".

It's almost like the origin story of some type of fractured American landscape - where we break apart over the resources we need that are unable to be sold easily between states.

I maintain as long as there's TV and internet to keep people entertained and numb, nothing changes. People will eat dog food as long as the TV is still delivering new content.
They can't keep making money if their logistics and economics are put at risk. Look how much Ukraine affected global economic markets. The US? it's not even conceivable really. Why do you think so many corporations hopped on the BLM train? It certainly wasn't any sense of morality.
How many bridges are there on the major interstates?
See that's the thing. If the wingnutz attack or try to control a bridge or a specific point of infrastructure, it gives the military a convenient target to crush them or at least round them up. Are some of them looking to be martyrs? Assuredly so. But how many want to actually give up their weekend redneck war games for the real thing.
Jaymann
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