Trump 2024

[malchior]

For all his many faults, he has carved out a space where they can be their true horrible selves.

[YellowKing]

The sad part is that I don't think most people pre-Trump were horrible people. I still don't think most Trump voters are horrible people. I think they're people that have been misled and psychologically manipulated. I've seen folks like my parents change from being live and let live tolerant people to voting for politicians that enact horribly racist/homophobic policies. They've been boiled like frogs as the party inched further and further to the right, and they went along because the alternative was to vote for a party they'd never voted for before.

The further they got in, the harder it was to extract themselves. It's not easy to admit you're wrong or that you are supporting bad people. So you double down, justify, explain away or simply bury your head in the sand. And the hole gets deeper and deeper.

[Octavious]

Honestly I mostly disagree for the most part. The majority I've seen were shitty people to begin with that kept it to themselves. Now it's ok to be an absolute shithead and they enjoy it. Most that I know are super selfish and super racist. Trump didn't make them that way he just made it ok for them to flaunt it. I really don't know how we ever recover. Certainly not until he's dead that's for sure.

[GreenGoo]

I think you're both right.

There are the life long Republicans who don't feel they have a choice, hold their noses and vote for him. Those are YK's experience. This doesn't explain why the are STILL supporting him though. 30 seconds of watching him speak will tell you what kind of person he is. And 30 seconds is an eternity when it comes to listening to him.

But the people at his rallies are the closet racists and garbage people who have always existed but kept it just to their inner circle of friends. Those are Oct's experience.

He won the initial nomination because there were simply too many choices and support couldn't coalesce around anyone.

Now? I have no idea but he needs to go. If not off the Earth then at least far away from NA where they don't have internet.

[Blackhawk]

I would add a couple of tweaks to both arguments:

There were some who felt that way and kept it buried, even from themselves. We all have prejudices, but while some of us recognize them for what they are and address them, others simply suppress them.

There were also some that were never like that before Trump, but who decided they liked the feel of it and embraced it.

[Zaxxon]

Federalist Society to the rescue:

I think there's approximately a 0% chance of this working, but it is an interesting perspective. Namely, the ability to bring more lawsuits into play, including potentially against election administrators who don't comply. Whether they would ultimately succeed or not, it's going to cause some folks to think twice prior to the 2024 election preparation ramping up.

[Unagi]

... and they went along because the alternative was to vote for a party they'd never voted for before.

I don't expect you to conclude your parents are 'horrible people' - but honestly - this is a weak excuse to vote for politicians that enact horribly racist/homophobic policies. And let's be clear - that's just a fraction of the attitude we see exhibited by these politicians.

The further they got in, the harder it was to extract themselves. It's not easy to admit you're wrong or that you are supporting bad people. So you double down

At what point do we get to conclude a person is a bad person? I mean, where do we stop just excusing people of their behavior/beliefs/votes?? Perhaps even the leadership is just 'in too deep' and it's just really hard for Trump/Hawley/McConnell/Tucker Carlson to admit they are wrong. Maybe no one is a bad person.

Maybe the very definition of a good person is someone that can admit when they are wrong and doesn't, instead, double down.

I'm so sick of making excuses for these people.

I've lost people too in this (thankfully not a parent). It's not easy and it's not fun.

And I will say it again, I don't expect anyone to conclude that their parents are horrible people...

[Grifman]

At what point do we get to conclude a person is a bad person? I mean, where do we stop just excusing people of their behavior/beliefs/votes?? Perhaps even the leadership is just 'in too deep' and it's just really hard for Trump/Hawley/McConnell/Tucker Carlson to admit they are wrong. Maybe no one is a bad person.

Maybe the very definition of a good person is someone that can admit when they are wrong and doesn't, instead, double down.

I'm so sick of making excuses for these people.

I've lost people too in this (thankfully not a parent). It's not easy and it's not fun.

And I will say it again, I don't expect anyone to conclude that their parents are horrible people...

How people vote is not the totality of who they are, not even close. We’re talking just two or three elections over a lifetime of elections vs so many other actions, good and bad, over a lifetime. I wouldn’t judge those people as being “bad” any more than I would judge you as “bad” over the two or three worse things you ever did over your lifetime. I’m also pretty sure I could find some Clinton/Biden voters who are really crappy people and I don’t think their votes would elevate them to “sainthood”. Of course as a Christian I don’t think any of us are inherently good but that’s a discussion for another time

[GreenGoo]

I think the biggest problem with this wave of hate is a lack of education and communication.

Fox etc have made it so the other side is the enemy, and you can't talk to them because they'll poison your mind, and you shun any other "conservative" or who does (RINO).l

I get that this not necessarily logical and can't be changed with a conversation, but as with christofacists and flat earthers, there needs to be push back. They need to be called on their nonsense to defend it. Sure, some people aren't going to be swayed no matter what happens, but not everyone is like that, and a simple calm conversation examining their beliefs (no yelling, no recriminations, etc), especially by someone they trust, such as family, can go a long way to ameliorate those views.

Empathy is a lot harder to come by than I would have ever guessed. It needs to be freaking taught from a young age. Your education system is failing you.

[El Guapo]

Federalist Society to the rescue:

I think there's approximately a 0% chance of this working, but it is an interesting perspective. Namely, the ability to bring more lawsuits into play, including potentially against election administrators who don't comply. Whether they would ultimately succeed or not, it's going to cause some folks to think twice prior to the 2024 election preparation ramping up.

With the caveat that I haven't read the article yet, it does seem like a credible argument. But getting 5+ justices to sign off (and dealing on the significant standing issues involved) seems like a heavy lift. But I hope someone uses this as the basis for a lawsuit, because why not. And it's not out of the question that 5+ justices would prefer the GOP nominee to be DeSantis or another Republican.

[GreenGoo]

How people vote is not the totality of who they are, not even close. We’re talking just two or three elections over a lifetime of elections vs so many other actions, good and bad, over a lifetime. I wouldn’t judge those people as being “bad” any more than I would judge you as “bad” over the two or three worse things you ever did over your lifetime. I’m also pretty sure I could find some Clinton/Biden voters who are really crappy people and I don’t think their votes would elevate them to “sainthood”. Of course as a Christian I don’t think any of us are inherently good but that’s a discussion for another time

And murderers and rapists aren't the totality of who they are either. So what?

If we can both agree that there are degrees, it's a gradient, where do you put people who support racist, controlling and authoritarian policies? Having a bad day, but otherwise solid people?

There's no question there are bad people on both sides. But this is not a both sides problem being discussed. This is emerging Nazi Germany. Some resisted as best they could and some jumped in with both feet. We need more resistance.

The measure of a person is not how they treat their friends and allies, it's how they treat people outside that circle.

[Isgrimnur]

The measure of a person is how they treat someone who can do nothing for them.

[YellowKing]

I think a couple of things are being glossed over here. The degree of psychological propaganda that has been spread through Fox News, etc. and the level at which the average voter is uninformed. Is a person who grew up in a red state with red friends, votes the way their family raised them and doesn't stay informed a "horrible person?" What if that person spends 20 hours a week volunteering delivering meals and tutoring kids (which is a hell of a lot more than most of us do). Still horrible?

I'm not defending those who are knowingly voting for horrible things. But there are a LOT of shades of gray here, people are complicated, and I like to assume the best of people. A lot of people are victims of a two-party system in which the leaders of one of those parties has stoked the fires of tribalism for literally decades. They are victims of a party that has aligned itself so closely with their religion that to buck their party is to buck their very faith.

[GreenGoo]

Apathy is also not an excuse.

I'm not glossing over propaganda. In fact I blame it almost entirely. Murdoch is a legit villain.

[El Guapo]

I guess I just don't care whether Trump voters are deemed to be good people or bad people. I think a lot of people who vote for Trump do so because they think of themselves as supporting Christianity, as supporting their country (can't people just live and be happy where they came from?), and the like. They don't think (and live in a media bubble that doesn't expose them to) all the bad effects of the policies supported by their votes. Obviously the collective effect is bad. And to a degree they respond to their political and cultural leaders - now those leaders are taking them to dark places, but if better ones were in ascendance then they would be better.

I tend to think of the line as being "do you understand that you're hurting people and are doing this anyway?" as kind of the dividing line. But ultimately it's a purely academic question.

[Zaxxon]

Apathy is also not an excuse.

I'm not glossing over propaganda. In fact I blame it almost entirely. Murdoch is a legit villain.

Endorsed.

YK, I hear you, and the propaganda is strong. But it's been [at least, charitably] 7 years now since it became clear to folks paying attention that Trump is evil. We have the entirety of his administration and many criming episodes, plus hundreds upon hundreds of rallies in which he is quite explicit with the horribleness.

This is not a Fox News propaganda-excusable scenario in mid-2023. You're either bad because you support terrible people, or IMO you're [a different kind of] bad for spending the better part of a decade voting while completely oblivious to even the most surface-level details about those you support. Especially when you have folks not under the mind-control spell in your life pointing these things out to you. These folks are adults, and being uninformed for this long is not an excuse. I'm not saying everyone in MAGA is a horrible human--that's a bridge too far. But they are doing a bad thing, and not knowing better doesn't fly for me anymore.

It is not the case that 30%+ of the United States' adult population simply don't know on some level that they're supporting a garbage human. For most of them, they don't care, or they're doing an incredible amount of rationalizing.

[Carpet_pissr]

The desire to judge people as “bad” is pretty strong in this thread, wow.

You can judge people however you choose. Want to call what most people consider a “good person”, bad? Go for it! Reverse is true as well.

Labeling people good or bad does what exactly? And good luck defining ‘good’ and ‘bad’ btw when it comes to a person.

Very, very rarely that clear cut no matter our desire for it to be so. And we aren’t even discussing ONE person, but millions.

Just not sure what the point is.

[Zaxxon]

It's easier to step back and resist the urge to call a spade a spade when you're not close to folks in the demographic groups being actively harmed by MAGA.

[Carpet_pissr]

It's easier to step back and resist the urge to call a spade a spade when you're not close to folks in the demographic groups being actively harmed by MAGA.

Is that directed at my comment?

[Zaxxon]

It's easier to step back and resist the urge to call a spade a spade when you're not close to folks in the demographic groups being actively harmed by MAGA.

Is that directed at my comment?

Not specifically, but to the general idea (from you, and others) that people calling folks out for taking harmful actions is not clear-cut. Like I said, I'm not going to say person X is a horrible person. But people that continue to support MAGA are actively harming the country and a large subset of its population. They are, objectively, doing a bad thing. It's as clear-cut as can be.

Calling that out is not in any way something to frown upon.

[El Guapo]

It's easier to step back and resist the urge to call a spade a spade when you're not close to folks in the demographic groups being actively harmed by MAGA.

Is that directed at my comment?

Not specifically, but to the general idea (from you, and others) that people calling folks out for taking harmful actions is not clear-cut. Like I said, I'm not going to say person X is a horrible person. But people that continue to support MAGA are actively harming the country and a large subset of its population. They are, objectively, doing a bad thing. It's as clear-cut as can be.

Calling that out is not in any way something to frown upon.

But intent matters in ethics and morality, right? If someone legitimately thinks that they're helping people by voting for Trump, even if they are dumb and wrong, are they a bad person?

[Carpet_pissr]

It's easier to step back and resist the urge to call a spade a spade when you're not close to folks in the demographic groups being actively harmed by MAGA.

Is that directed at my comment?

Not specifically, but to the general idea (from you, and others) that people calling folks out for taking harmful actions is not clear-cut. Like I said, I'm not going to say person X is a horrible person. But people that continue to support MAGA are actively harming the country and a large subset of its population. They are, objectively, doing a bad thing. It's as clear-cut as can be.

Calling that out is not in any way something to frown upon.

Judging actions to be bad (or good) vs people is a VERY different thing.

And of course this is true, but no one is arguing against this:

“But people that continue to support MAGA are actively harming the country and a large subset of its population. They are, objectively, doing a bad thing. It's as clear-cut as can be.”

I doubt YK would argue that his parents voting for Trump was a good thing.

[Zaxxon]

But intent matters in ethics and morality, right? If someone legitimately thinks that they're helping people by voting for Trump, even if they are dumb and wrong, are they a bad person?

I'm saying they're doing a bad thing. Intent matters much less on that front. And I'm saying that I don't buy the fact that all these folks truly don't know what they're supporting. They're rationalizing, and at the level of rationalization required to still support Trump, there's some level of intent. How long does an adult get to actively vote harm upon others while plugging their ears and singing happy tunes before some level of responsibility rests upon them for their active ignorance?

Even so, I'll quote myself.

These folks are adults, and being uninformed for this long is not an excuse. I'm not saying everyone in MAGA is a horrible human--that's a bridge too far. But they are doing a bad thing, and not knowing better doesn't fly for me anymore.

It is not the case that 30%+ of the United States' adult population simply don't know on some level that they're supporting a garbage human. For most of them, they don't care, or they're doing an incredible amount of rationalizing.

Judging actions to be bad (or good) vs people is a VERY different thing.

Agreed. And I've taken great pains since 2016 to try to do the former and not the latter. What I'm trying (and failing) to communicate is that it's becoming more and more difficult to refrain from the latter. The harms are real, and the excuses are lame (to me) at this point. I think we're actually not in disagreement here, at least not significantly. I just have fewer fucks left to give for 'but Fox News told me so!' as a valid excuse.

[Carpet_pissr]

No, I’m with you on that.

Sadly, I actually do view my father differently now than I did prior to Trump (really, prior to him becoming a Tucker Carlson acolyte).

And by differently, I mean I’ve lost a lot of respect for him simply as a result of politics. I’m sad for him and for me both. I’m also angry. At him, but also at the right wing “system” that’s played on his inherent worse tendencies PERFECTLY. The rage machine worked so well, it’s scary.

[Zaxxon]

No, I’m with you on that.

Sadly, I actually do view my father differently now than I did prior to Trump (really, prior to him becoming a Tucker Carlson acolyte).

And by differently, I mean I’ve lost a lot of respect for him simply as a result of politics. I’m sad for him and for me both. I

Sorry to hear that. I can relate, with some family members.

’m also angry. At him, but also at the right wing “system” that’s played on his inherent worse tendencies PERFECTLY. The rage machine worked so well, it’s scary.

Absolutely.

[Octavious]

Yup I can say the same about my father. Having a conversation with him is like talking to Fox News. He just repeats word for word any nonsense they write. He skipped my sisters 40th birthday party because part of it was watching Barbie and that was too woke according to Fox. They had run a story the same day he decided not to go.

[Grifman]

How people vote is not the totality of who they are, not even close. We’re talking just two or three elections over a lifetime of elections vs so many other actions, good and bad, over a lifetime. I wouldn’t judge those people as being “bad” any more than I would judge you as “bad” over the two or three worse things you ever did over your lifetime. I’m also pretty sure I could find some Clinton/Biden voters who are really crappy people and I don’t think their votes would elevate them to “sainthood”. Of course as a Christian I don’t think any of us are inherently good but that’s a discussion for another time

And murderers and rapists aren't the totality of who they are either. So what?

Ok, you got me there, duh. Yeah, let’s use edge cases to make generalizations about 95% of the population But yay, you scored a rhetorical point! Go you!

If we can both agree that there are degrees, it's a gradient, where do you put people who support racist, controlling and authoritarian policies? Having a bad day, but otherwise solid people?

Maybe you need to spend some time outside your bubble and get to know more people with different views? I know many Trump voters and most are not “bad” people by any means. I think they are wrong, badly mistaken, sometimes confused, often mislead and lied to, but few are “bad”. People can have poor judgement, make bad decisions, and yet not be “bad” people. Basically you are saying that 45% give or take of Americans are “bad” people and morally “beyond the pale” because they voted for Trump.

I think that is absurd and not really helpful. This is just more of calling the other side “deplorable” (and yes, Clinton didn’t say everyone on the other side was, but that’s not how it was heard). It’s also just a very simplistic view of people - Biden voter “good”, Trump voter “bad”. And rhetoric such as this is just going to be seen by them as just more liberal elitism and condescension. The fact is, they live in this country too, and just writing them off as bad” isn’t going to accomplish a single thing, except maybe allowing some people to feel morally superior. Seriously, what does this accomplish in the end?

Lastly, I could write an essay as to why I think most people vote for Trump, but I think it has little to do with racism or authoritarianism. I think they probably downplay those aspects (or consider them distortions by the liberal media) and vote for Trump for other reasons - too rapid (for them) cultural shifts, liberal condescension (Obama’s “God and guns remark), economic dislocations, Trump posing as a “fighter”, distrust of govt, etc. Populism is a powerful tool when wielded “properly” and shouldn’t be underestimated.

I think also that just saying Trump voters are “bad” doesn’t really help us in analyzing the problems facing our democracy. There are a lot of issues leading to a vote for Trump, some even legitimate, that we need to address. Attributing s Trump vote to just “bad” people ignores the real issues that led people to vote for him.

To go further here is a good article which looks at the complex mix of things leading to a vote for Trump:

https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/12/07/de ... -loyal-why

And here people in their own words describe why they voted for Trump:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... -why-vote/

It’s not just because people are “bad”.

[Grifman]

For those that say “people should know”, that there should be no excuses, let me give this quote from the first link I gave above:

“It’s hard for political junkies to believe,” Lenz said, “but most people have much better things to do with their lives than pay attention to politics. If you ask, ‘How, after the last four years, could people want more of this?’, well, people are partisan. The country is polarized. And it’s not clear that people are paying much attention to the details.”

Most people are NOT political junkies. They are not nearly aware of things as the people posting on this forum.

[Carpet_pissr]

Amen, and keeping that in mind is in my own personal mental arsenal of tools to use when I try to interact with people outside my bubble.

I had to check myself HARD about it when I started talking politics to my co-worker who is a single black mom (who said she would consider voting for Trump, when we first met).

If she even reads the headlines everyday, I would be shocked, much less articles that go in depth wrt constitutional law in the 1/6 attempted coup.

Blame that on American superficiality, self-centeredness, lack of intellectual curiosity, cynicism, politics fatigue, whatever. Same could be said for my brother up until very recently.

[Zaxxon]

Most people are NOT political junkies. They are not nearly aware of things as the people posting on this forum.

We're not talking about political junkies. We're talking about even the slightest, wisp-thin capability to follow current events.

I agree with you that there's a plethora of reasons that people voted for Trump. I disagree that continuing to support him and the MAGA movement in general in mid-2023 is as excusable as you convey it to be.

[malchior]

Yeah - agree - there is a huge difference between expecting people to know who Roger Stone or Steve Bannon are or knowing that Trump tried to steal an election! And his behaviors make him worst people in our country. Period. They know who he is. They know what he represents. They often still stand up for that. And we're way past the point of holding your nose. That doesn't fly anymore. Folks are obviously free to think that does not make them bad people...fine...but I respectfully disagree. A lot of harm is being done to folks that wouldn't be happening if they were actually in fact good people.

[YellowKing]

I'm coming from a place where personally I don't have the energy anymore to resent/hate people that I have to live with, work with, and associate with every day. It's easy to call people horrible human beings if you don't have to talk to them every single day. I can't expel people from my life that I see every day because of who they vote for once every four years for reasons unknown to me.

I've talked about the three neighbors (that I know of) who fly Trump flags in their garage, and I realized the other day that I was changing who I was because of them. When I'm out walking the dog I say hi to people and I wave. But I just shut down when I go past them and they're in their yard. And I realized it sucks feeling that way. Whether I give them the cold shoulder doesn't impact how they're going to vote. And saying hi to them doesn't mean I endorse the way they vote. The only end result is that we each think each other is an asshole and I end up feeling bad.

Again, it's not about defending these people or passively endorsing their viewpoint. It's about trying to exist in such a way that politics is not the overriding determination of how I treat other human beings. I can't spend the rest of my life despising 40+% of the population.

[Octavious]

They are supporting a guy that will literally alter the rest of our lives if he's elected again. This isn't a difference of opinion. It's a hostile takeover and they are all for it. So I see where you are coming from, but to me I can't associate with anyone that would fly a Trump flag. Some old lady that voted red the last 50 years sure I get it. Someone throwing that flag up must be paying attention a bit and likes the anger that dude is selling. Currently I only have 1 dude with a Trump flag in town. And I'm sure he's a pile of crap.

[GreenGoo]

They are supporting a guy that will literally alter the rest of our lives if he's elected again. This isn't a difference of opinion. It's a hostile takeover and they are all for it.

This.

They want a shittier world for the rest of us, because they (think) they like it better.

Just fucking live your life, shitheels. Don't worry about how other people live their lives.

[GreenGoo]

Ok, you got me there, duh. Yeah, let’s use edge cases to make generalizations about 95% of the population But yay, you scored a rhetorical point! Go you!

I didn't win a rhetorical point, I illustrated that the argument in and of itself is not enough. I then acknowledged that it's a gradient. We simply disagree on where on that range people become "bad" people.

In any case, labels aren't really important here. They can be the biggest pieces of shit they want to be, as long as they don't codify discrimination into law.

That's basically it. Once you support that, you lose any slack being cut to your benefit. (universal you obviously).

[Unagi]

I'm coming from a place where personally I don't have the energy anymore to resent/hate people that I have to live with, work with, and associate with every day. It's easy to call people horrible human beings if you don't have to talk to them every single day. I can't expel people from my life that I see every day because of who they vote for once every four years for reasons unknown to me.

It's also really easy to overlook and underplay the attacks they are making on certain people if you don't have to talk to those people every single day and worry about a world they will be growing up in.

[Octavious]

I look at the Maga crowd like the Nazi party. A Trump flag is a Nazi flag as far as I'm concerned. I promise you most or the people flying that flag would not bat an eye if Dems were rounded up and thrown in camps. Hell Trump said he would that with homeless people and nobody batted an eye.

[Grifman]

Most people are NOT political junkies. They are not nearly aware of things as the people posting on this forum.

We're not talking about political junkies. We're talking about even the slightest, wisp-thin capability to follow current events.

I agree with you that there's a plethora of reasons that people voted for Trump. I disagree that continuing to support him and the MAGA movement in general in mid-2023 is as excusable as you convey it to be.

I never said it was excusable. I said voting for Trump didn’t mean that those voters were “bad” people. I can understand why someone makes a bad decision, and I can say that it is poor thinking on their part, and I can strongly disagree with that decision without condemning them.

[YellowKing]

It's also really easy to overlook and underplay the attacks they are making on certain people if you don't have to talk to those people every single day and worry about a world they will be growing up in.

Again, I think there's a big difference between a hardcore MAGA who's attending Trump rallies and your neighbor that votes Republican for <insert X reason that you aren't privy to>.

I'm not going out of my way to associate with people flying a Trump banner. But I'm absolutely not going to sever relationships with my family, friends, and co-workers because they happen to vote Republican. If you can do that, then enjoy your luxury of never having to deal with people you don't agree with. I don't have that luxury.

[Grifman]

I look at the Maga crowd like the Nazi party. A Trump flag is a Nazi flag as far as I'm concerned. I promise you most or the people flying that flag would not bat an eye if Dems were rounded up and thrown in camps. Hell Trump said he would that with homeless people and nobody batted an eye.

I do think there is a difference between the MAGA crowd and the rest of Trump/Republican voters. MAGA is the closest thing to a political cult I have seen.