Religion and Politics in Video Games

For discussion of religion and politics

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stimpy
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Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by stimpy »

Here ya go. A nice place to discuss anti-Semetic goblins and Russian made killer robots
Have at it.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Blackhawk »

A game thread is a perfectly valid place to discuss controversy about that game as well.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by ImLawBoy »

Either is acceptable, IMO. There may come a point where enough people feel the controversy around a game is so overwhelming the game thread that it makes sense to move the controversy elsewhere. I think it may have reached the point in the Potter thread (not sure about the Atomic Hearts thread - is that one even out to discuss gameplay yet?), but in any event I don't think it's something we're going to formally police as long as discussion remains civil.

I might suggest people move that discussion here if they really want to get into the weeds about it, if for no other reason than the tone of discussion on R&P topics tends to be more heated and some people avoid the R&P forum because they don't want to have to sift through all that.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Isgrimnur »

Atomic Heart is not out yet.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by stimpy »

Isgrimnur wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:08 pm Atomic Heart is not out yet.
So what?
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by ImLawBoy »

He's answering the question I had in my post.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by stimpy »

My apologies.
But obviously the game doesnt have to be out to discuss gameplay, as the thread already had plenty of game related discussion going.
That thread is very much in the weeds now.....
Last edited by stimpy on Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Jaymann »

Yeah, and what about those Jedi Knights using their Jewish light sabers to cut down white supremacist storm troopers?
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by El Guapo »

stimpy wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:28 am Here ya go. A nice place to discuss anti-Semetic goblins and Russian made killer robots
Have at it.
FYI it's "Semitic" not "Semetic".

FWIW the 1612 pogrom stuff seems silly, since (unfortunately) you can probably pick any year between 1000 - 1800 and there was probably a pogrom somewhere in Europe somewhere that year. BUT honestly as to the goblins, while this isn't specific to the HP game, having a race of greedy big nosed people running the banks...some editor really should have flagged that.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Smoove_B »

Not that I want to derail the topic that was derailed originally, but for my own edification, did the goblin issue come up with the books or in the movies? I only read the first book (meh) and saw the first movie (double-meh) so I'm not really sure how the video game's portrayal relates. I have a hazy memory of a goblin (Warwick Davis?) wearing fancy-lad clothes and doing something in a bank, but I don't recall thinking it was...problematic.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by stimpy »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:05 pm
stimpy wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:28 am Here ya go. A nice place to discuss anti-Semetic goblins and Russian made killer robots
Have at it.
FYI it's "Semitic" not "Semetic".
Semantics
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by ImLawBoy »

stimpy wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:41 pm My apologies.
But obviously the game doesnt have to be out to discuss gameplay, as the thread already had plenty of game related discussion going.
That thread is very much in the weeds now.....
My point is that it's all part of a mix. Certainly the politics of a game and surrounding the game are fair topics for discussion with respect to that game, and I don't think you can feasibly or successfully isolate those discussions into the R&P forum. That said, I think most people read the game threads for more game detailed discussions, so if it goes too far into R&P, I think it's fair to, as you suggested, create a separate R&P thread (either for that game specifically or more generally like this one) and point people to that thread. Whether the game is actually released can be a part of that consideration, because you're going to have more people wanting to discuss actual gameplay related to released games than forthcoming games. It's not a bright line in either direction, but that's my thinking.

I realize that anything I say or do on this type of topic will be wrong to you and will be subject to your criticism, but I'll still try to provide you (and others) with my thinking on the subjects. I could be off base on this, so I welcome varying inputs. (I do wonder if this particular discussion would be better in Meta, though.)
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by YellowKing »

Smoove_B wrote:Not that I want to derail the topic that was derailed originally, but for my own edification, did the goblin issue come up with the books or in the movies?
I've heard it mentioned in the past, but not to any major degree. At least not to the point it seemed to get in the game thread. The goblins are in the books, they're in the movies, they're in the Gringott's ride at Universal, and I never recall anyone threatening to boycott any of that stuff over it.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by stimpy »

ImLawBoy wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:27 pm
stimpy wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:41 pm My apologies.
But obviously the game doesnt have to be out to discuss gameplay, as the thread already had plenty of game related discussion going.
That thread is very much in the weeds now.....
I realize that anything I say or do on this type of topic will be wrong to you and will be subject to your criticism, but I'll still try to provide you (and others) with my thinking on the subjects. I could be off base on this, so I welcome varying inputs. (I do wonder if this particular discussion would be better in Meta, though.)
Dont think you're wrong at all.
But when the thread in a gaming forum spirals into discussion about Religion and/or Politics, you would think people would know to take it elsewhere.
I mean.....why even have separate threads then?
The line should be pretty obvious, but I guess some just dont give a shit.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by LordMortis »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:08 pm Not that I want to derail the topic that was derailed originally, but for my own edification, did the goblin issue come up with the books or in the movies? I only read the first book (meh) and saw the first movie (double-meh) so I'm not really sure how the video game's portrayal relates. I have a hazy memory of a goblin (Warwick Davis?) wearing fancy-lad clothes and doing something in a bank, but I don't recall thinking it was...problematic.
I have a vague memory of it coming up from the movie but not making a big splash, meaning it was likely mentioned on OO at the time. This was well before the days the Rowling Trans press and the Internet collectively going full attack mode wasn't so much a thing at the beginning of the 2000s. It had totally passed me by in the movie and I would have never thought about it if it hadn't been pointed out and meh'd it when it was. My issues with HP at the time were more about the narrative than anything else. I've since come to mellow a bit on such things, especially as I watch so many cartoons with the same narrative laziness with blessed special characters getting all the yuks and experiencing no growth.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by El Guapo »

stimpy wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:17 pm
El Guapo wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:05 pm
stimpy wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:28 am Here ya go. A nice place to discuss anti-Semetic goblins and Russian made killer robots
Have at it.
FYI it's "Semitic" not "Semetic".
Semantics
Correct.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by El Guapo »

YellowKing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:33 pm
Smoove_B wrote:Not that I want to derail the topic that was derailed originally, but for my own edification, did the goblin issue come up with the books or in the movies?
I've heard it mentioned in the past, but not to any major degree. At least not to the point it seemed to get in the game thread. The goblins are in the books, they're in the movies, they're in the Gringott's ride at Universal, and I never recall anyone threatening to boycott any of that stuff over it.
Yeah it's come up now and again. It's never been as big an issue as the trans stuff has been, to be sure. And honestly I wouldn't call the goblins anti-Semitic - it's more that it is "cringe", as my daughter would say. I think of it as akin to Watto or the Trade Federation people in the Star Wars prequels.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:47 pmTrade Federation people in the Star Wars prequels.
FWIW I think the trade federation characterizations were outright unacceptable even in 1999. I saw the first prequel with my Chinese friend and I was horrified by the trade federation stuff. He came out *pissed* and also majorly disappointed (as we all were) by that turd.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:17 pm
El Guapo wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:47 pmTrade Federation people in the Star Wars prequels.
FWIW I think the trade federation characterizations were outright unacceptable even in 1999. I saw the first prequel with my Chinese friend and I was horrified by the trade federation stuff. He came out *pissed* and also majorly disappointed (as we all were) by that turd.
The other one that stood out to me was the jive-talking transformers in one of the Michael Bay transformer movies, especially since they threw in the gratuitous line for one of them that they can't read.

Part of the reason I mentioned those, though, was that I think of these as being the same category of issue (though one can fairly debate the egregiousness from case to case). The goblins aren't anti-Semitic in that they're, you know, magical goblins and not Jewish, in the same way that the trade federation leaders were not anti-Asian, in that they were aliens and not Asian. But the presentation in both cases were I would say evocative of ethnic stereotypes. I don't think that George Lucas set out to make fun of Asian businessmen, nor did JK Rowling think to herself "wouldn't it be funny if I made fantasy Jews run the banks in my books", but...the end result is not great.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Jaymon »

I am aware that a lot of folks who are not JK Rowling worked on the game. The vast majority of them did or do not really have a choice about what title they are working on. They just have jobs and they need those jobs, and I know that.

But regardless if it was a flat fee or a percentage thats paid to Rowling, I personally have chosen to never support anything that could potentially fund into her pocket.

Harry Potter universe continues to hold a special place in my heart. If the game ever shows up on a disk in a second hand store, then I will grab it. However, that scenario seems quite unlikely, I'm not even sure if its available in a non-digital format.

I know I am just one person, keeping a single drop from falling into an overflowing bucket. But its my drop, and its important to me. I get to choose what bucket my drop goes into.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Jaymann »

My drop is safe for the nonce as well. I take umbrage with Rowlings, but I also watched a gameplay video, and that shit is way too complicated. If I want that level of complexity I will play Elden Ring.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by stimpy »

Huh.
Who knew Soldier Boy (Jensen Ackles) is really a commie lover.
Wonder how many rubles he was paid?

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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Blackhawk »

The art vs artist debate is so much more complex than that. Even within myself it is a constant struggle to come to terms with it in an era when so many ugly facts have come to light.

If I genuinely refused straight out to never do business with terrible people, I'd never be able to go shopping or use utilities again.

And yet I won't eat at Chick-fil-A.

And yet I shop at Walmart.

And yet I won't watch Cosby.

And yet I enjoy Harry Potter.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Smoove_B »

In time, I'm guessing there's going to be all kinds of disclaimers with her stuff - similar to what I see quite frequently now for anything associated with Cthulhu and Lovecraft, as seen here.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Holman »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:48 pm In time, I'm guessing there's going to be all kinds of disclaimers with her stuff - similar to what I see quite frequently now for anything associated with Cthulhu and Lovecraft, as seen here.
Recent editions of the CALL OF CTHULHU rpg have all done the same thing.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by EvilHomer3k »

This article on Gamespot is pretty good. It's sort of similar to the video Max linked but is has a different tone to it.

I've spent a fair amount of time reading about this over the last few days. I don't think I would have played HL anyway but I won't be now for sure. I'm not going to ask my kids not to play it but I will ask that they read the article and/or watch the video linked above first. I'm not sure if they have a desire to play it or not but I want them to have exposure to the video/article. If anyone is on the fence on the game I encourage you to watch the video or read the article.
Then, of course, there's also this TikTok which makes a good point as well.

There is a difference between JKR and someone like Lovecraft. Lovecraft is dead. JKR is still alive and spewing hate. She's actively working against the rights of trans people. She also has said that she views the continued success of the HP franchise as proof that others feel the same way. I'm not sure she'd allow disclaimers while she's alive.

JKR is also different from a company like Blizzard in that same way. After Blizzard's controversy the company came out publicly and apologized. They removed people from their teams. They renamed a character in Overwatch because he shared a name with one of the perpetrators.

Ultimately, I think each person has to decide themselves where they draw their lines and what causes are important to them. I understand people who think people playing the game aren't really allies of the LGBTQ+ community and people who play the game. I, personally, am going to limit any support I can give to JKR but that's pretty easy for me as I'm not a big fan of the HP universe. I am interested in the discussion, though.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by YellowKing »

I think Blackhawk nailed it. Ultimately it's a personal decision, and that personal decision may not be consistent. Sometimes convenience or economic realities outweigh your moral stances. I don't think that makes you a bad person. It makes you a human being that's trying to do the best for yourself and your family.

I still eat at Chick-Fil-A because it's the only fast food place my kids agree on and it' s 5 minutes from my house. But I also support LGBTQ businesses and vote against politicians who are against LGBTQ interests. Who's to say how the moral scale ultimately balances out?
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Pyperkub »

Would bad English count? ;)

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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by LordMortis »

YellowKing wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:16 pm I still eat at Chick-Fil-A because it's the only fast food place my kids agree on and it' s 5 minutes from my house. But I also support LGBTQ businesses and vote against politicians who are against LGBTQ interests. Who's to say how the moral scale ultimately balances out?
They put one in about 15 miles from my place. I may finally eat there just once to finally know what the hubbub was about. About 25 years too late, I guess.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Kraken »

I read somewhere that chick-fil-a was under new management that renounced its predecessor's toxic politics and alienated its core customer base who accused it of becoming "woke." But when I googled "is chick-fil-a still evil?" I only found the well-known accusations. So I'm going to presume that they're still evil and continue not going there, which is easy since I've never been and wouldn't know where to find one if I wanted to.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Max Peck »

I don't know about new management, but they seem to have ceased donations to the organizations (The Salvation Army and Fellowship of Christian Athletes) that were the source of ire re the company supporting same-sex marriage opponents.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Blackhawk »

It's a safe bet that if a company is at least regional, it's got issues. There are certainly exceptions, but once corporate profit-over-people philosophies kick in, humanity tends to fall by the wayside.

Which is what makes this topic complex. Imagine that we could filter what we see, and there was check box to hide any group or product that was in any meaningful way awful (actively hateful owners, support of extremist politics, mistreatment of customers/employees, using exploitative sources, actively harming the environment, etc.) Now, we go to town and apply our filters to the physical businesses. We'd see a few local places, but beyond that we'd see a wasteland. Go into a business and apply it to the products, and the shelves would be bare. Apply it to TV, and you'd have very little to watch. Apply it to music, and many of your favorites would disappear. Apply it to literature, or art, or anything else and we'd probably be shocked at how much disappeared.

Now if the philosophy becomes, "If you use any of those services, you're an awful person, too", we have a problem. Not only do we not have such a filter, but so much of our ecosystem is built around these problematic companies/creators/products that if you somehow did the research on every one and avoided them - there likely wouldn't be much left unless you wanted to go 'off the grid' and live a hippy lifestyle. And for those without a lot of money, it's even more problematic, as the economy of the poor relies on the cheap services and products that these groups provide. Local places can't compete on price, and the poor can't afford to choose the more expensive option.

So choosing what to avoid for ethical reasons becomes a lot more complicated than, "It's bad, m'kay?", and lumping in any consumer that doesn't toe the line with those actively campaigning for hate isn't justified.

How do I personally decide? I don't know. There isn't a hard and fast rule.

Part of it is the ick factor - how does continuing to patronize something questionable make me feel? Public opinion is part of that (unfortunately - public opinion isn't always just.) The Harry Potter game, for instance - at this point, I'd feel guilty for trying to play it, and I'm not sure that's justified.

Part of it is the question of how much of an impact me buying or not buying it makes. Going back to the HP game, Rowling has said that she sees sales as justification, but is she actually going to change her views if her games (or even the books) sell less? I kinda doubt it. Is the slice of the licensing fee she gets going to make any difference in what she says, does, or supports when she's got a billion in the bank?

Part of it is personal. I don't eat at Chick-fil-A because when that controversy was going down, any time I was likely going to eat out and was choosing, I was with a gay friend, and he personally requested we avoid it. And Harry Potter? If my trans daughter specifically told me that it made her uncomfortable, I wouldn't play (or read, or watch) it. But she hasn't, and is a fan herself.

But the attitude that anybody who knowingly buys a Harry Potter product, or eats at a certain restaurant, or shops at certain stores is actively supporting hate needs to stop. It's misguided, counterproductive, blind, and kinda bullshit.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by stessier »

The Good Place was pretty much about the modern moral quandaries that you point out. Great show.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by GreenGoo »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:02 pm
How do I personally decide? I don't know. There isn't a hard and fast rule.
And that's ok.

What's important to remember is that other people have made different decisions, and that's ok too.

"You don't care about this other, possibly similar thing" is not a counter-argument to the thing being discussed. It's a separate topic.

Lastly, it's important to remember that change doesn't happen by itself. If people are annoying you about something you don't care about, it's probably because they aren't happy with the status quo. Asking them to keep it to themselves is practically the antithesis of democracy, as much as it would be nice to have the right to never be annoyed by other people.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Blackhawk »

Keep their opinions to themselves? No. Keep their accusations to themselves? Yeah. And some of the arguments made (via links in this thread and others) have amounted to, "This thing is bad, and if you don't boycott it like I do, you're a bad person."
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by LawBeefaroni »

A lot of it hinges on how discretionary something is, or appears to be.

Individual video games are pretty much the epitome of discretionary, along with movies/TV.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by GreenGoo »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:44 pm Keep their opinions to themselves? No. Keep their accusations to themselves? Yeah. And some of the arguments made (via links in this thread and others) have amounted to, "This thing is bad, and if you don't boycott it like I do, you're a bad person."
That's their opinion. You don't have to agree with it. You can even call it stupid and tell them to fuck off.

Of course, as with any group, there are extremists. Do they speak for the group? Probably not, otherwise they wouldn't be labelled extremist.

Unfortunately extremists are also the loudest, and generate the most clicks for media. :angry-cussingwhite: :doh:

Are the extremists helping their cause more than hurting it? Is any publicity good publicity? No idea.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by noxiousdog »

I think, like most things, it boils down to "do I care enough to be inconvenienced?"

More care? I'm more willing to boycott.

Less inconvenient? Banninate!!!!
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Blackhawk »

It is rarely convenient to piss off my entire family over refusing to use a certain service that they like.
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