Josh Hawley and Social Media

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Kurth
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Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Kurth »

Is it possible that I actually agree with Josh fucking Hawley on something?

In this Washington Post op ed from last week, "Congress must act to keep kids off social media," Hawley argued that social media is so harmful to kids, that legislation should be passed establishing an age requirement of 16 for social media.

No idea how that is actually implemented if passed, but I would whole heartedly support that. Social media is terrible for kids (for most people, really). I'd love to see Congress take action to try to prevent children from having access.

There was also a NYT op ed by Michelle Goldberg today taking this up: Don't Let Politics Cloud Your View of What's Going On With Teens and Depression.

In that, she makes the point that nothing aligns better with the rise in teen depression than the explosion of social media use. Not the pandemic. Not political swings. Not perceptions of a world in disarray.
Technology, not politics, was what changed in all these countries around 2012. That was the year that Facebook bought Instagram and the word “selfie” entered the popular lexicon. As Twenge showed in “iGen,” in 2009, fewer than 60 percent of eighth-grade girls reported near-daily use of what were then called “social networking sites.” By 2014, more than 80 percent did.

Social media didn’t just cut into offline socializing. It precipitated a revolution in consciousness, in which people are constantly packaging themselves for public consumption and seeing their popularity and the popularity of others quantified. It’s not shocking that this new mode of existence would be particularly fraught for those in a stage of life where both fashioning the self and finding a place to belong are paramount . . .

The idea that unaccountable corporate behemoths are harming kids with their products shouldn’t be a hard one for liberals to accept, even if figures like Hawley believe it as well. I’m not sure if banning social media for young people is the right way to start fixing the psychic catastrophe engulfing so many kids. But we’re not going to find any fix at all if we simply start with our political priors and work backward.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Skinypupy »

While I absolutely agree that social media can be harmful to kids, I don't know that there would be any possible way to put the toothpaste back in that tube at this point.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by gbasden »

So how would that work in practice? Any website where lots of people gather can be "social media", including the chat in Roblox or Octopus Overlords. How would you scope such a law that wouldn't effectively ban children from using much of the internet?
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by naednek »

A republican who wants government to control something. I thought republicans wanted government to stay out of everyone's business?
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Smoove_B »

Maybe if the government stops trying to pass laws regulating bodies of women that might help the next generation of them to stop worrying about what the next 20+ years of their lives look like.

I'm not saying social media isn't an issue but I don't think the solution is to try and figure out how to stop them from using it. Instead let's perhaps consider we need to improve and elevate our society overall as a protective measure against those that are looking to collectively drag us backwards.

Also, F Josh Hawley.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by YellowKing »

I tend to get a bit defensive when it's proposed that the government step in to tell me how to parent. It smacks too much of "let's ban video games/comic books/offensive lyrics/<insert something old people hate>"
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Isgrimnur »

YellowKing wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 2:54 pm <insert something old people hate>
Young people enjoying themselves.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by GreenGoo »

There is not a single reference to science or causation data in the quoted material. Hopefully the article itself has something to add besides "think of the children".

I'm loathe to make things illegal in general, and even less so for emotional appeals.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by ImLawBoy »

My kids aren't yet at the social media stage, so I don't have first-hand knowledge of how it will or won't impact them. I'm definitely concerned about it, though. I'm not completely opposed to figuring out a way to make it safer for kids, but I'm at the point where I'm reflexively cynical about GOP-backed plans for anything like this. My first thought was that this would be an effective way to strip away online anonymity, since everyone on "social media" (however we're defining that) would need to somehow demonstrate proof of age.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by GreenGoo »

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 2:53 pm Maybe if the government stops trying to pass laws regulating bodies of women that might help the next generation of them to stop worrying about what the next 20+ years of their lives look like.
I (barely) refrained from going there, but I'm glad someone did.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Smoove_B »

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:01 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 2:53 pm Maybe if the government stops trying to pass laws regulating bodies of women that might help the next generation of them to stop worrying about what the next 20+ years of their lives look like.
I (barely) refrained from going there, but I'm glad someone did.
It's infuriating - the idea that politicians and governments would tell teenagers that being on social media is bad for your health and in the same breath these clowns push for laws targeting LGBT+ individuals, critical race theory, more guns (especially in schools) and bodily autonomy. They're fueled by cruelty and yet I'm to believe they want to restrict social media to help improve mental health? Maybe start funding local mental / community health support for teenagers instead of buying more SWAT gear for local police. Just a thought.

EDIT: No strategic plans were harmed as part of this post
Last edited by Smoove_B on Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Isgrimnur »

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:08 pmSWOT gear
They performing marketing analyses for Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats now?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Smoove_B »

:lol: goddammit
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by LawBeefaroni »

On Friday we got notice that a kid in the 12-YOs class has created a number of fake Snapchat accounts in other kids' names and had been posting racist rants and other nasty shit under these accounts. One of these accounts was in my daughter's name.

This is the same kid that was pulling information on our family earlier this year and sending it to my daughter. Public info, like he went to a great grandfather's obituary and pulled cousins' names, etc. But it was always in a threatening and/or insulting manner. My first introduction to this kid is when he photoshopped my daughter's face on an egg roll and sent it to the class via school emai with a note that she's part Asian, during her first month at her new school. At one point he told my daughter that he would DOX me, which was an odd but very specific threat.

We've had some discussions with his teachers about this but apparently they're aren't doing anything. After this incident they are making all the affected kids take "social and emotional wellness" classes instead of their regular Social Studies classes. As for the kid? Nothing. He doesn't have to do social/emotional wellness because his presence may upset the victims.

It's all I can do not to go scorched earth on this kid and it's crickets from his parents.

All this is to say that schools have no way to deal with this kind of stuff on a large scale.

But neither does Snapchat. All the kids are under the minimum age of 13 so Snapchat won't provide any info and aren't taking any action.


Not sure how regulation will help much either. It's almost as if civility and compassion are beneficial to society and complete lack thereof is a detriment.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by El Guapo »

This all seems pretty dumb. Not to say that social media is perfect and harmless of course, but there's no plausible enforcement mechanism here. Plus I'm deeply skeptical of the simple linkage of social media caused a documented rise in depression among teens, though I'm certainly no expert of the subject.

Obviously social media has its issues, and society should respond as best it can to ameliorate them. But a flat ban on social media use for teens seems pointless and stupid.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

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LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:21 pm It's almost as if civility and compassion are beneficial to society and complete lack thereof is a detriment.
This is where I feel we're losing or perhaps have lost and has crushed my soul more than anything else. I see it every where, all of the time. Even while largely in isolation. How do we get it back? Can we? Where can I go to at least find the illusion that I don't have to keep my guard up all of the time from my fellow man? Heck I have to stop, as a pedestrian, every day, at crosswalks to keep from getting run over by people either turning while I have the crossing light or someone stopping at the crosswalk. This is to say nothing of the angry drivers who want to turn into or out of lots while I am crossing on the sidewalk. Then I see garbage everywhere and people obviously using their recycling bins for garbage. And I see people stealing carts openly from the marts for shits and giggles. Usually empty, so not even for their own lazy way to carry bags. One such cart has been sitting on a porch for weeks.

For social media, specifically, not being a child, I had to turn off the poison sometime in early 2020 after culling and culling didn't work. I turned it back on toward the end of last year but I keep it a bit more distant, and sadly less personal now and it seems a good chunk of my friends also de-emphasized FB in my absence. Again, sad.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by stessier »

El Guapo wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:56 pm This all seems pretty dumb. Not to say that social media is perfect and harmless of course, but there's no plausible enforcement mechanism here. Plus I'm deeply skeptical of the simple linkage of social media caused a documented rise in depression among teens, though I'm certainly no expert of the subject.

Obviously social media has its issues, and society should respond as best it can to ameliorate them. But a flat ban on social media use for teens seems pointless and stupid.
I would also add that social media has also helped kids find "their people" and made them feel less alone. My kids would certainly suffer greatly if it was suddenly banned as there is no local outlet for what they like to create.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by El Guapo »

stessier wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:16 pm
El Guapo wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:56 pm This all seems pretty dumb. Not to say that social media is perfect and harmless of course, but there's no plausible enforcement mechanism here. Plus I'm deeply skeptical of the simple linkage of social media caused a documented rise in depression among teens, though I'm certainly no expert of the subject.

Obviously social media has its issues, and society should respond as best it can to ameliorate them. But a flat ban on social media use for teens seems pointless and stupid.
I would also add that social media has also helped kids find "their people" and made them feel less alone. My kids would certainly suffer greatly if it was suddenly banned as there is no local outlet for what they like to create.
I am interested in the details of the asserted link between social media and depression. Assuming that it's accurate that depression among teens has risen significantly since 2012, I can say that my kids and their peers are far more fluent in mental health concepts than I or my friends were as kids. I have to assume that at least some significant portion of the documented rise isn't a rise in depression per se as much as it is a rise in documented / diagnosed instances of depression.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by malchior »

This feels like another moral panic based on magical thinking being foisted on us to distract us from our many pressing and mounting problems. Not that social media doesn't contribute or amplify effects but I don't believe it is why the kids aren't ok.

It's not hard to see why they might be depressed. It is not like there is a lot of hope ahead for them. They're literally seeing their peers mowed down in class or at home or on the streets by gun violence. Our society doesn't provide adequate defense against sexual predators while they are young and even when they are adults. In other words, we don't even pretend to care about their basic physical safety.

Financially, the kids can see clearly that the cohort ahead of them and even their own parents have faced multiple economic crises. We keep avoiding dealing with structural fiscal issues in our society. Also, when they age up they face a job market which often makes them wrestle with a decision about signing into a system built on crippling debt. They've in short witnessed the drastic decline of the middle class.

They are also being exposed to the rapid erosion of ethics and morality in our politics and business elites. They've been made aware of the way they are used as pawns for our "civil cold war". They can see folks like Trump, Hawley, Tucker Carlson, and others thumb their noses at propriety. Some of them outright crime with little consequence. They see that for what it is even when the adults pretend it isn't happening.

But perhaps if we only expose this to them when they are old enough, it'll stave off the existential gloom. Like magic.

El Guapo wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:31 pmI am interested in the details of the asserted link between social media and depression. Assuming that it's accurate that depression among teens has risen significantly since 2012, I can say that my kids and their peers are far more fluent in mental health concepts than I or my friends were as kids. I have to assume that at least some significant portion of the documented rise isn't a rise in depression per se as much as it is a rise in documented / diagnosed instances of depression.
The problem with magical thinking is that it blinds you to complexity or simpler explanations. For example, would it be crazy to publish a piece blaming childhood depression on school shootings? Sandy Hook was in 2012. Perhaps the kids came to realize the objective fact that our society simply showed them we don't give a damn about their basic safety? I'm not suggesting that gun control is a magic button either but this focus on social media is pretty silly when you have so many alternatives to mix in.

But it was in the Washington Post and the NY Times. So it must be OH SO SERIOUS. Unless you come to realize how unserious everything has become.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Skinypupy wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 2:11 pm While I absolutely agree that social media can be harmful to kids, I don't know that there would be any possible way to put the toothpaste back in that tube at this point.
What?! Easy! Follow Steam and alcoholic beverage maker models: simply have a splash screen on websites and/or apps that makes everyone enter their ages and voila!
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by El Guapo »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:45 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 2:11 pm While I absolutely agree that social media can be harmful to kids, I don't know that there would be any possible way to put the toothpaste back in that tube at this point.
What?! Easy! Follow Steam and alcoholic beverage maker models: simply have a splash screen on websites and/or apps that makes everyone enter their ages and voila!
Meet The Brilliant 12-Year-Old Hacker Who Breached The Bud Light Website’s Impregnable Age Verification Firewall
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Kurth »

Well, that went over like a lead balloon! A couple thoughts based on the comments:

- Completely agree (and already stated) that it's hard to imagine how you'd effectively implement a 16 and under ban on social media. But just because it's hard to do doesn't mean the idea - at least in the abstract - is without merit.

- I take Stessier's point about like-minded kids being able to find each other. It's a double-edged sword (I know a lot of like-minded kids I wish had never found each other), but I do see the good there.

- Many of the comments about other potential causes of kids being depressed (e.g., Sandy Hook) were addressed in the article. In fact, Michelle Goldberg specifically started from the perspective that an increase in school shootings may be a cause, but the timeline and the data didn't seem to support that.

- I don't get the "moral panic" takes. What seems like "magical thinking" to me is to imagine that our kids are depressed and existentially bothered by the political and social issues that we obsess about. Sure, these middle schoolers might be depressed because they have crippling concerns about the job market they face when they get out of school . . . Maybe they're on Macro Economics TikTok. Or maybe they're getting fed a steady stream of content filled with vile shit that's making them question their own self worth.

Anyway, nothing is likely to come of this in the end, so I'm feeling pretty safe in not having to ever own up to agreeing with Josh Hawley on anything that matters.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Is the social media ban for kids include youtube and twitch?

Seem to me, the ban is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by YellowKing »

I think bottom line is I'm never going to take advice about how to keep kids safe from a guy who opposes gun control every step of the way.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by malchior »

Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:27 pm- Many of the comments about other potential causes of kids being depressed (e.g., Sandy Hook) were addressed in the article. In fact, Michelle Goldberg specifically started from the perspective that an increase in school shootings may be a cause, but the timeline and the data didn't seem to support that.
Perhaps she is simply wrong. The study she references outright ponders these same factors. She is the one claiming a timeline fit and offering an opinion. She pretty much talks us through a process of magical thinking. It is weak stuff. I'll quote her analysis.
The study speculated that left-leaning girls might simply be reacting to the political environment. “Broad-reaching phenomena, such as worsening climate change or school shootings, may impact mental health for all adolescents, while social injustices like sexism, which gained media attention through the #MeToo movement, may be felt most acutely by those personally affected,” it said. The notion that Trump’s America was a psychologically unhealthy place for young women resonated with me, and I considered writing about it.

But as I looked closer at the data, I saw that the inflection point for liberal adolescent depression wasn’t 2016, but around 2012. That was the year of the devastating Sandy Hook mass shooting, but it was not otherwise a time of liberal political despair. Barack Obama was re-elected in 2012. In 2013, the Supreme Court extended gay marriage rights. It was hard to draw a direct link between that period’s political events and teenage depression, which in 2012 started an increase that has continued, unabated, until today.
Look closely at what she is doing there. It is a bit illogical to look for an effect relative to her feelings about the existence of some generalized "liberal political despair". Aka magical thinking. Worse she then talks about the impact of specific events occurred. The kids don't worry about school shootings because Obama was re-elected? Or the Supreme Court extended gay marriage rights? How is this a serious analysis? I'm genuinely asking how this is persuasive at all. It's not the greatest piece of analysis I've ever read.

That's not to say there aren't legitimate questions such as this one.
Twenge pointed out that “The Politics of Depression” found increases not just in depression but also in loneliness among liberal teenage girls. “Why would they feel lonely because of the state of politics?” she asked.

I couldn’t answer that question, and since I lost faith in my initial interpretation of “The Politics of Depression,” I never ended up writing about it. Now, however, with a roiling debate about what’s causing the downward spiral of kids’ mental health, it’s worth revisiting why the notion of teenage depression as a sort of internalized protest against an unjust society doesn’t hold up.
But only a little further she then potentially overstates the case or potentially cherry picks data.
I agree with Donegan and Valenti about the horrifying toll that sexist violence takes on girls and women. But sexual assault and political backsliding can’t be the whole story behind soaring rates of adolescent anguish. Sexual violence has been consistently bad in America: According to the Youth Risk Behavior Survey, in 2011, 12 percent of girls reported that they’d been forced to have sex, only two points fewer than in 2021. American politics didn’t take a severe right turn until 2016. And regardless, the steep decline in young people’s mental health around 2012 isn’t just an American problem: It also shows up in Britain, Canada and Australia.
I followed the links to the underlying data. The link to the British survey has data for only 2 years - 2009 and 2018. It also only covers girls. The Canadian source she links shows some of the potential effect but is a little data starved. The age group is 15-30 which is pretty wide but potentially still a good fit for "young people". The Australian data starts in 2012. We have no reference to other time period. In other words, it's a bit disparate, not well aligned, and potentially cherry picked to fit her argument. Which is possibly a side effect of searching for data that fits the argument instead of collecting broad data and backing into an analysis. A potential classic mistake. In any case, the Australian data is still the best source and it does show some impacts but there are unfortunately no theories of causation discussed.

Back on the domestic front though she puts a stake in the ground stating that politics didn't take a severe right turn until 2016. That is fairly subjective to say the least. Did it take a hard right turn in 2016 or was that when the frog was boiled enough for us to finally notice?

Anyway, I'm not going to spend too much more time picking this apart but it's not the strongest case IMO though there is definitely evidence that social media is definitely in the mix and potentially a hazard to mental health of young people. However, this fixation on it alone is probably a mistake.

Edit: I lied. I re-thought through this and put my finger on what was wrong at root of the analysis. I give her some credit to being transparent about how she thinks about it but I think it exposes fundamental flaws in composition. When I deconstruct her analysis, IMO she is building a model on a house of cards rooted in belief in "big rocks". Trump was elected in 2016 - the nation turns hard right. Facebook buys Instagram in 2012 and social media usage skyrockets. A few other nations are supposedly seeing the same thing. None of these rocks are particularly good fits individually and compositionally I think it is a mess. Still it did it's job, it got folks arguing and somehow no one notices that it's fairly shoddy. It's easy to rile us up nowadays.
- I don't get the "moral panic" takes. What seems like "magical thinking" to me is to imagine that our kids are depressed and existentially bothered by the political and social issues that we obsess about.
Do I really need to pull up the many surveys of school age children over the last decade talking about how they are worried about political and social issues such as school shootings and climate change? Here is one for good measure. 37% of school age children are anxious about climate change and 33% are afraid. Not a majority but that's a lot of kids. And like Michelle Goldberg I'll pull out some international studies showing that there is a lot of dread with young people with 57% of people 15-25 across 10 countries believing that humanity is doomed. Grim stuff. Now to be clear I haven't dug into these to see if there are issues with these studies too. There might be. I'm just pointing out that there is some evidence that kids are pretty aware and worried about the state of the world. And it ultimately boils down that this issue is probably a lot more complicated than this notion that social media is breaking the kids. I'm not even getting into the need to also explore questions about whether part of the problem is social media displacing healthier activities like in-person socializing or disrupting sleep.
Sure, these middle schoolers might be depressed because they have crippling concerns about the job market they face when they get out of school . . . Maybe they're on Macro Economics TikTok. Or maybe they're getting fed a steady stream of content filled with vile shit that's making them question their own self worth.
This is where I'm wondering what is going on here. Are you really listening here or just reflexively defending? Social media has definite potential to contribute or be a major source of issues for young people. It is also possible that it is the amplification of what is already there, to wit a country with massive issues. It is strange to me to argue they aren't aware of them, worry about them, or see the general pessimism in our nation. Even if just for all the indirect effects like hunger, poverty, and general insecurity they face. 2008-2016 were years with high childhood rates of each of the former in the United States. Then a pandemic happened and re-started that cycle. There are a lot of suspects here and the arguments that Goldberg and Hawley put forward aren't the best at proving the case to say the least.
Anyway, nothing is likely to come of this in the end, so I'm feeling pretty safe in not having to ever own up to agreeing with Josh Hawley on anything that matters.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by noxiousdog »

With three kids aged 14, 18, and 19, and a brother that teaches high school theater, it is the same as it ever was plus COVID.

And not the OMG, nobody cares about it COVID, but the peer isolation that came from remote learning. I'm not arguing that it wasn't necessary, but that it has a profound impact on our youth.

In addition, the kids are much more in tune with mental health. Overboard and without wisdom, but they at least respect it.

I mean, I understand the climate change argument, but America's youth has had to deal with a lot more than that. Real wars (with a draft), Spanish flu, nuclear threat, etc.

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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:18 amI mean, I understand the climate change argument, but America's youth has had to deal with a lot more than that. Real wars (with a draft), Spanish flu, nuclear threat, etc.
And part of the trouble is we don't have a frame of reference to baseline our current data collection efforts. We can talk about how kids in the past lived in an insecure world but we never measured it. I feel like these are the weakest arguments for that reason. We can infer a lot but circumstances are very different than say kids who had to live through duck and cover drills and the Cuban missile crisis. Heck many of us dealt with the global uncertainty of the end of the Soviet Union and then global terrorism. The main difference is through all that we had a relatively stable society to ground those fears and strong institutions that prevented backsliding on democracy and other issues. It wasn't all roses (and there were very rough spots) but we're far away from that now.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by GreenGoo »

Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:27 pm - Completely agree (and already stated) that it's hard to imagine how you'd effectively implement a 16 and under ban on social media. But just because it's hard to do doesn't mean the idea - at least in the abstract - is without merit.
For the record, I have been pilloried here for suggesting "ideas with merit" that were similarly likely to be implemented.

Don't expect much sympathy. Particularly when the idea's "merit" is still being debated, let alone implementation of the idea.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by malchior »

The other side is that calling for a ban on anything tends to harden resistance. Warranted or not. When it is clearly unrealistic it sort of takes the wind out of an argument's sails even quicker. That's why I'd personally prefer identifying the harms and figuring out if we can address them.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Kurth »

GreenGoo wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:12 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:27 pm - Completely agree (and already stated) that it's hard to imagine how you'd effectively implement a 16 and under ban on social media. But just because it's hard to do doesn't mean the idea - at least in the abstract - is without merit.
For the record, I have been pilloried here for suggesting "ideas with merit" that were similarly likely to be implemented.

Don't expect much sympathy. Particularly when the idea's "merit" is still being debated, let alone implementation of the idea.
No sympathy expected or needed. :D

And I also see both sides on this one. Not even entirely sure where I come down. I’m not a big fan of “bans” either.

This issues with social media just bother me deeply on a personal level. As a dad with three teenagers, I’ve seen what an influence it has been in their lives.

We tried to keep them off social media as long as we could, and with our oldest, that wasn’t that hard. He’s a freshman in college now, and while social media was certainly present when he was in middle school (2015 -2018), it didn’t seem like it was as much a part of his life as it is for kids today.

For my daughter (senior in high school), I’ve seen her deal with the massive amount of info pushed to her over social about her physical appearance, and I’ve seen it take a toll. Luckily, she’s such a tough and confident kid, it hasn’t had too much of a negative impact, but I know it’s not easy for her.

But for my youngest son (freshman in high school), social media has been a nightmare. He’s addicted to it, and it really works against him. He’s obsessed with the latest fads and trends that get pushed to him, most of which are terrible for him. We used to refer to him as “Disaster Joe” back in his pre-school days. He would obsess about potential disasters like car accidents and train wrecks and building collapses and the human toll. Now, guess what he sees on TikTok and Instagram all the time? No wonder he’s anxious and doesn’t sleep well. Outside of international soccer stars, it seems like his idols these days are whichever asshat social media personalities are doing the most disrespectful, punk thing they can possibly think of. The images he gets pushed constantly about masculinity and women and sex are not exactly enlightened either. It’s just a bad scene all around.

I think if I were hearing this as a dispassionate observer, my response would be, “parenting fail.” And maybe there’s some truth to that. But our approach to parenting has always been to be pretty hands-off. We’ve always avoided being helicopter parents and tried to teach our kids to be responsible and to make good decisions for themselves. It just doesn’t seem to be working that well with our youngest, and it genuinely feels like social media is a big part of that, not only for him, but for most of the kids I know who are his age. When we complain about behavior problems and other issues with him, our older two often remind us that the prevalence of social media wasn’t the same for them when they were in their formative years from late elementary to early high school.

So, in answer to malchior’s question, that’s some of the context for what’s going on here.
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Zaxxon
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Zaxxon »

I'm sympathetic to the idea. My kids haven't hit the age where social media is a big thing yet (though they do have direct messaging capabilities with a subset of their friends). I know it's going to be an issue at some point, and having seen what it does to grown-ass adults, I do think holding out as long as feasible is probably a good idea.

But...
YellowKing wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:49 pm I think bottom line is I'm never going to take advice about how to keep kids safe from a guy who opposes gun control every step of the way.
Josh Fucking Hawley, and the rest of the gun-lovin', climate catastrophe-minimizin', election-denyin', democracy-destroyin' GOP are not the answer. They can GTF right on out. I cannot overstate how completely this group has disqualified itself from managing anything to do with my kids--it's gonna be difficult enough for that generation to dig out from the many holes being actively created for them by these folks.
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El Guapo
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by El Guapo »

GreenGoo wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:12 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:27 pm - Completely agree (and already stated) that it's hard to imagine how you'd effectively implement a 16 and under ban on social media. But just because it's hard to do doesn't mean the idea - at least in the abstract - is without merit.
For the record, I have been pilloried here for suggesting "ideas with merit" that were similarly likely to be implemented.

Don't expect much sympathy. Particularly when the idea's "merit" is still being debated, let alone implementation of the idea.
I apologize if I came off as too harsh. I do think that the downsides to social media and its impact on youth are important issues worthy of discussion, and a flat ban on youth access to social media (while I am deeply skeptical of it) is worthy of discussion as well. I also want to make sure that my pushback on the idea isn't taken as "you are a dumb dummie for bringing this up for discussion." I do love kicking around ideas even ones that I think are bad.

Anyway, I'm sure that there are better ways for society to handle social media, both in general and as to kids. I'm just doubtful that a government ban is the right approach.
Black Lives Matter.
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noxiousdog
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by noxiousdog »


malchior wrote:
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:18 amI mean, I understand the climate change argument, but America's youth has had to deal with a lot more than that. Real wars (with a draft), Spanish flu, nuclear threat, etc.
And part of the trouble is we don't have a frame of reference to baseline our current data collection efforts. We can talk about how kids in the past lived in an insecure world but we never measured it. I feel like these are the weakest arguments for that reason. We can infer a lot but circumstances are very different than say kids who had to live through duck and cover drills and the Cuban missile crisis. Heck many of us dealt with the global uncertainty of the end of the Soviet Union and then global terrorism. The main difference is through all that we had a relatively stable society to ground those fears and strong institutions that prevented backsliding on democracy and other issues. It wasn't all roses (and there were very rough spots) but we're far away from that now.
Not from a kids perspective.

We can see the flaws in our system, but only if you follow politics closely.

Drafts, integration, race riots, the depression etc, were easily more on the minds of teenagers.

Frankly, until we see voting participation by young folks increase, you'll never convince me that inaction by politicians is a main factor in kids' psyche. To be fair to your stance, it's almost as high as it was in 1964, but it's still the worst of all other groups by a wide margin.

And on topic, I bet social media is a good explanation.
Black Lives Matter

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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:29 pmWe can see the flaws in our system, but only if you follow politics closely.
This seems dubious to me. Trust in almost every major institution in our country at the state and federal level nationwide are essentially at crisis levels but the kids don't know what is going on? I'm not saying they have deep knowledge about what is happening but they surely are aware things aren't going well. Maybe I deal with the most socially aware youngsters in the world but they make some pretty astute observations at times. I think we focus on where they are irresponsible and not that the cohort from say 15-30 is one of the most socio-politically aware generations in a long while.
And on topic, I bet social media is a good explanation.
Where I suppose I differ is on the weight. I think it is in the mix. I think maybe 3-4 factors are involved. Social media, political awareness, economic pressure, and of course the pandemic which is touches on all of that and more.
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Unagi
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Unagi »

Imagine growing up under the context of a presidential candidate being recorded declaring that he was free to grab women by the pussy, who was then elected... and then all that transpired in his presidency.


I can't imagine any kid that was paying even a little attention (or listened to their parents that have been paying even a little attention) hasn't pretty much entirely dismissed this government.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Smoove_B »

Seriously. I don't think we're (collectively) giving teenagers as much credit as they deserve. They've never known a world where there weren't active shooter drills - and active shootings in school. Adults (teachers, school administration, boards of education) are minimizing and ignoring concerns over LGBTQ+ awareness in teenagers. These same groups are actively pushing to remove, change or ignore educational materials that don't fit a narrative. At my daughter's high school they had some clown come in last year (former police officer) to tell them the mental health crisis in teens was made up and they should all just "get over it". Again, someone at the school arranged for this guy to come in *and* paid him to say that. It's a disgrace. Experiencing mental health issues? Get over it. Solid advice for a 15 year old.

I want to be clear - social media is an open sewer. However, it's absolutely a way for teenagers to communicate and be more aware about things. There are doctors and OB/GYN physicians that are "tik tok famous" with teenagers because they're developing content they (teens) want to know about but aren't being given access to (at home, in school). Same for LGBTQ+ visibility and awareness.

The answer isn't blocking teens from social media. It's figure out how to make sure there's support for positive venues to help them receive information in the way they're most comfortable and/or receptive.
Last edited by Smoove_B on Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by LordMortis »

Unagi wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:38 pm I can't imagine any kid that was paying even a little attention (or listened to their parents that have been paying even a little attention) hasn't pretty much entirely dismissed this government.
You either have parents that accept that as being part of governance. Or you see that enough of the US accept that as being part of governance. Either way, what respect for authority of the governance is left? How much civil discourse; civility, in general, is left? How much can be reclaimed, so long as those years are considered legitimate consent of the governed? :cry: I keep coming back to Jame Baldwin.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Just because an idea is posited by a POS doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea, or not worthy of consideration.

I’m personally appalled by social media in general and am very much aligned with Kurth on this.

And I hear the ‘but it has merit! Consider the ability to connect even more easily with like-minded peers!’ In fact that’s my wife’s favorite argument, and trots it out every time I grumble about social.

And during the very VERY tough (mentally, for my kids) Covid days, I had to agree, but that (event) was a massive exception. I have a very strong opinion that its evil outweighs its good.

Dunno about an outright ban (primarily bc I don’t think it would work, and would prob backfire considering the age group, and make it more desirable), so maybe more (some?) awareness and education about the pitfalls and ‘the bottom line’ (views/eyeballs/clicks, etc.
Last edited by Carpet_pissr on Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by Pyperkub »

Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:45 pm Is it possible that I actually agree with Josh fucking Hawley on something?

In this Washington Post op ed from last week, "Congress must act to keep kids off social media," Hawley argued that social media is so harmful to kids, that legislation should be passed establishing an age requirement of 16 for social media.

No idea how that is actually implemented if passed, but I would whole heartedly support that. Social media is terrible for kids (for most people, really). I'd love to see Congress take action to try to prevent children from having access.

There was also a NYT op ed by Michelle Goldberg today taking this up: Don't Let Politics Cloud Your View of What's Going On With Teens and Depression.

In that, she makes the point that nothing aligns better with the rise in teen depression than the explosion of social media use. Not the pandemic. Not political swings. Not perceptions of a world in disarray.
Technology, not politics, was what changed in all these countries around 2012. That was the year that Facebook bought Instagram and the word “selfie” entered the popular lexicon. As Twenge showed in “iGen,” in 2009, fewer than 60 percent of eighth-grade girls reported near-daily use of what were then called “social networking sites.” By 2014, more than 80 percent did.

Social media didn’t just cut into offline socializing. It precipitated a revolution in consciousness, in which people are constantly packaging themselves for public consumption and seeing their popularity and the popularity of others quantified. It’s not shocking that this new mode of existence would be particularly fraught for those in a stage of life where both fashioning the self and finding a place to belong are paramount . . .

The idea that unaccountable corporate behemoths are harming kids with their products shouldn’t be a hard one for liberals to accept, even if figures like Hawley believe it as well. I’m not sure if banning social media for young people is the right way to start fixing the psychic catastrophe engulfing so many kids. But we’re not going to find any fix at all if we simply start with our political priors and work backward.
The initial link to the Op-Ed is broken, FWIW, and points towards a bad OO link ;)
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

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Re: Josh Hawley and Social Media

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Iran-Contra pretty much put the nail in thr coffin of my trust in government but I had support systems like Jello Biafra/Dead Kennedys, Chuck D/Public Enemy and others to help sort out my feelings.

What do kids have today? Unrestrained commericalism, the end of truth, and TikTok.
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