Are you woke?

[malchior]

Debate amongst scholars though it's of the really esoteric sort.

Edit: This is related to an earlier version of this production which was to feature Gal Gadot.

[Rumpy]

Right, but I'm saying that it's not exactly a new debate, that it's something that's been debated for ages. This particular instance has only brought it back to the surface. I'm not debating whether it's wrong or not, there's a difference.

That’s what is confusing me. Who is debating it? Just random people that don’t know anything about history? I can’t imagine that there was ever a debate amongst scholars, right?

Dunno, but I've seen reference to debates going back as early as the early 19th century about it and it's something that comes up easily enough if you google it, so it's been around the block. Interestingly, I think it might coincide with the fact travel became more accessible, and therefore people became more curious in general. And it's human nature to ask questions. There's also an evolution to our knowledge over time, so something that might seem basic now might not have been at the time the question was sparked.

So going back to the production in question, it seems the producer latched onto those debates, then tried to pull out a claim as fact.

[waitingtoconnect]

It isn’t racist to say that Cleopatra VII was most likely of Greek background

I'm curious why you say "most likely". She was a ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty. It's not "most likely", it "is".

I say most likely because history and science are evidence based. The available evidence strongly points to a woman of Greek heritage based on surviving busts from that time period.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopat ... erlin1.jpg

We cannot know for sure what her skin tone was because in the Roman Empire skin tones did not carry any social implications, and no social identity, either imposed or assumed, was associated with skin color. Although the color black was associated with ill-omens in the ancient Roman religion, racism as understood today developed only in the dark ages.

[Unagi]

We cannot know for sure what her skin tone was because in the Roman Empire skin tones did not carry any social implications, and no social identity, either imposed or assumed, was associated with skin color. Although the color black was associated with ill-omens in the ancient Roman religion, racism as understood today developed only in the dark ages.

I struggled with trying to type this argument out earlier and just gave up. I couldn't phrase it elegantly and I even struggled to phrase any of it at all, and I think you just did a great job with it there.

[RunningMn9]

I say most likely because history and science are evidence based. The available evidence strongly points to a woman of Greek heritage based on surviving busts from that time period.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopat ... erlin1.jpg

We cannot know for sure what her skin tone was because in the Roman Empire skin tones did not carry any social implications, and no social identity, either imposed or assumed, was associated with skin color. Although the color black was associated with ill-omens in the ancient Roman religion, racism as understood today developed only in the dark ages.

It feels like you are saying two different things. She was a woman of Greek heritage. That is 100% certain. Her skin tone might be up for debate, but the fact that she was of Greek heritage is not.

[Grifman]

Right, but I'm saying that it's not exactly a new debate, that it's something that's been debated for ages. This particular instance has only brought it back to the surface. I'm not debating whether it's wrong or not, there's a difference.

Whether the earth is round or flat has been “debated for ages” , but that still doesn’t mean that flat earth isn’t nuts.

[Grifman]

It isn’t racist to say that Cleopatra VII was most likely of Greek background

I'm curious why you say "most likely". She was a ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty. It's not "most likely", it "is".

I say most likely because history and science are evidence based. The available evidence strongly points to a woman of Greek heritage based on surviving busts from that time period.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopat ... erlin1.jpg

We cannot know for sure what her skin tone was because in the Roman Empire skin tones did not carry any social implications, and no social identity, either imposed or assumed, was associated with skin color. Although the color black was associated with ill-omens in the ancient Roman religion, racism as understood today developed only in the dark ages.

That doesn’t make any sense. Whether the Romans cared about skin tone or not has nothing to do with what we know of Cleopatra’s ancestry. She may have been olive skinned or she may have been pretty fair skinned, but she was most certainly of Greco-Macedonian heritage, with maybe a little Persian mixed in. She most definitely NOT a Black African.

[Unagi]

Well, to be fair - I think this conversation has a little bit of a 'shell game' nature to it. Are we saying "African" or are we saying "Black" (I believe Pickette is trying to say both at the same time), and the opposite would be that "Greek/European" == White.

I looked at this debate being about 'skin tone' and the person asked to look like Cleopatra in a 'documentary'. What skin tone is too dark? I mean the woman they have playing this role on Netflix is not "African", she is British. And I'm not aware of her 23-and-me results to get any real details.


One of these is totally fine, the other one is an affront to history??

"I don’t care what they teach you in school, but Cleopatra was Black" isn't as totally dismissable as "I don't care what they teach you in school, but Cleopatra was African" - which is simply not true.

The problem Pinkett Smith has is she is saying these are African Queens, which gets back to my whole Disney Princess thought.

[Unagi]

She most definitely NOT a Black African.

How about a Black Macedonian?

[Unagi]

If someone started a show on the great Disney Princesses, they shouldn't be most proud of Princess Leia, who is only "technically" a Disney Princess by association - not by true 'roots' and origins.

Likewise, Egypt, being on the continent of Africa was led by a Greek queen name Cleopatra. Yeah, yeah, if you want to say she was one of the Queens of Africa, have at it... but she was not an indigenous African.

How pale was her skin? We don't know. "Mediteranean" is a fair description... and even today that comes in a lot of shades, and did back then too.

[Rumpy]

Right, but I'm saying that it's not exactly a new debate, that it's something that's been debated for ages. This particular instance has only brought it back to the surface. I'm not debating whether it's wrong or not, there's a difference.

Whether the earth is round or flat has been “debated for ages” , but that still doesn’t mean that flat earth isn’t nuts.

Good grief, I never said it wasn't. All I said was that these debates have been around for ages, and keep coming up, and will likely keep coming up. That they keep coming up doesn't make them any more true. I'm just acknowledging that there's a debate at all, but somehow that's being missed completely. This is just the latest instance of the debate re-emerging, this time perpetrated by a documentary producer on a high-profile streaming network. You're preaching to a choir

[Alefroth]

Well, to be fair - I think this conversation has a little bit of a 'shell game' nature to it. Are we saying "African" or are we saying "Black" (I believe Pickette is trying to say both at the same time), and the opposite would be that "Greek/European" == White.

For the sake of accuracy, it's Pinkett Smith.

[Unagi]

Well, to be fair - I think this conversation has a little bit of a 'shell game' nature to it. Are we saying "African" or are we saying "Black" (I believe Pickette is trying to say both at the same time), and the opposite would be that "Greek/European" == White.

For the sake of accuracy, it's Pinkett Smith.

Thanks! Last page I was writing Plinkett (having just copied the post above me)

(corrected)

[Holman]

It isn’t racist to say that Cleopatra VII was most likely of Greek background

I'm curious why you say "most likely". She was a ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty. It's not "most likely", it "is".

I say most likely because history and science are evidence based. The available evidence strongly points to a woman of Greek heritage based on surviving busts from that time period.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopat ... erlin1.jpg

We cannot know for sure what her skin tone was because in the Roman Empire skin tones did not carry any social implications, and no social identity, either imposed or assumed, was associated with skin color. Although the color black was associated with ill-omens in the ancient Roman religion, racism as understood today developed only in the dark ages.

That doesn’t make any sense. Whether the Romans cared about skin tone or not has nothing to do with what we know of Cleopatra’s ancestry. She may have been olive skinned or she may have been pretty fair skinned, but she was most certainly of Greco-Macedonian heritage, with maybe a little Persian mixed in. She most definitely NOT a Black African.

FWIW, I recently waded into a Twitter spat that began with someone posting "There are no white people in the Bible."

The predictable reaction was "What about the Greeks and Romans mentioned in the New Testament??"

My contribution was to point out that "whiteness" was definitely not a category in the ancient world, nor was even "European." While the ancients did have a sense of what geographical Europe was, it definitely did not suggest a common identity.

To the Romans, civilization existed in the advanced cities and colonies of the Mediterranean rim. All those northern Brits and Celts and Germans were just barbarian weirdos.

[Holman]

Romans being "white" would require this:

[Roman:] I'm sorry, my urbane Syrian friend. Although we have shared fruitful ties of commerce and culture for centuries, I must tell you that I feel a timeless connection with a just-discovered tribe of sheep-shaggers across the Alps.

[Tribal:] Hell yeah! {shags sheep}

[Grifman]

She most definitely NOT a Black African.

How about a Black Macedonian?

The issue isn’t whether she was African or Macedonian - she was both, being a Macedonian born in Africa, who family had hailed from Africa for almost 300 years. The issue is whether she was Black or not. And the answer is no. There’s no evidence of Black ancestory in Cleopatra’s lineage. Her busts and coins don’t make her out to appear Black in any way. To reiterate, she was an ethnically Macedonian (perhaps with a little bit of Persian) born in African. She had no Black sub-Saharan ancestory.

[Grifman]

.


One of these is totally fine, the other one is an affront to history??

That image of the actress is more than a little misleading compared to how she looks in the film:



Or these images from the film (from the actress’ Twitter account):

[Jaymann]

.


One of these is totally fine, the other one is an affront to history??

That image of the actress is more than a little misleading compared to how she looks in the film:

Nice Bracers of Battle.

[Victoria Raverna]

She looks darker in the movie. Does that count as blackface?

[Unagi]

FWIW, I recently waded into a Twitter spat that began with someone posting "There are no white people in the Bible."

The predictable reaction was "What about the Greeks and Romans mentioned in the New Testament??"

My contribution was to point out that "whiteness" was definitely not a category in the ancient world, nor was even "European." While the ancients did have a sense of what geographical Europe was, it definitely did not suggest a common identity.

To the Romans, civilization existed in the advanced cities and colonies of the Mediterranean rim. All those northern Brits and Celts and Germans were just barbarian weirdos.

Romans being "white" would require this:

[Roman:] I'm sorry, my urbane Syrian friend. Although we have shared fruitful ties of commerce and culture for centuries, I must tell you that I feel a timeless connection with a just-discovered tribe of sheep-shaggers across the Alps.

[Tribal:] Hell yeah! {shags sheep}

I'll let Grifman reply to you - as this is pretty much what I was trying to point out (I think. Correct me if I’m wrong) - but he only replied to me.

[raydude]

.


One of these is totally fine, the other one is an affront to history??

That image of the actress is more than a little misleading compared to how she looks in the film:

Nice Bracers of Battle.

I read Jada Pinkett Smith's quote in that article. I completely get the desire to show more 'Black Queens' or historical black influential figures. That being said, why not go all in and showcase a black historical figure whose story people barely know? Or showcase a figure who was undeniably black? Why pick someone whose ancestry was debatable?

[raydude]

.


One of these is totally fine, the other one is an affront to history??

That image of the actress is more than a little misleading compared to how she looks in the film:

Nice Bracers of Battle.

I read Jada Pinkett Smith's quote in that article. I completely get the desire to show more 'Black Queens' or historical black influential figures. That being said, why not go all in and showcase a black historical figure whose story people barely know? Or showcase a figure who was undeniably black? Why pick someone whose ancestry was debatable? As her quote says "there are tons of them".

[raydude]

.


One of these is totally fine, the other one is an affront to history??

That image of the actress is more than a little misleading compared to how she looks in the film:

Nice Bracers of Battle.

I read Jada Pinkett Smith's quote in that article. I completely get the desire to show more 'Black Queens' or historical black influential figures. That being said, why not go all in and showcase a black historical figure whose story people barely know? Or showcase a figure who was undeniably black? Why pick someone whose ancestry was debatable? As her quote says "there are tons of them".

Sorry for the multiple posts. I forgot that "edit" and "reply" are two different buttons.

[Holman]

I read Jada Pinkett Smith's quote in that article. I completely get the desire to show more 'Black Queens' or historical black influential figures. That being said, why not go all in and showcase a black historical figure whose story people barely know? Or showcase a figure who was undeniably black? Why pick someone whose ancestry was debatable? As her quote says "there are tons of them".

Good question, but the answer is the familiarity brings eyeballs.

[hitbyambulance]

if some people think that America is the end-all/be-all of racism, wait til they see some other parts of the world.... this country is doing rather well in comparison.

[Trent Steel]

if some people think that America is the end-all/be-all of racism, wait til they see some other parts of the world.... this country is doing rather well in comparison.

It’s one thing to be overtly racist and embrace your myopic beliefs for all the world to see.

It’s another to gaslight your citizens about not having a racist culture while trying to dump your racist roots in a swamp in NJ.

[hepcat]

if some people think that America is the end-all/be-all of racism, wait til they see some other parts of the world.... this country is doing rather well in comparison.

So you don’t believe we can be better? Or that we should even aspire to?

If we base our level of humanity solely on being better than someone else, where does that leave us?

[waitingtoconnect]

I say most likely because history and science are evidence based. The available evidence strongly points to a woman of Greek heritage based on surviving busts from that time period.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopat ... erlin1.jpg

We cannot know for sure what her skin tone was because in the Roman Empire skin tones did not carry any social implications, and no social identity, either imposed or assumed, was associated with skin color. Although the color black was associated with ill-omens in the ancient Roman religion, racism as understood today developed only in the dark ages.

It feels like you are saying two different things. She was a woman of Greek heritage. That is 100% certain. Her skin tone might be up for debate, but the fact that she was of Greek heritage is not.

No I’m not. As I said skin tone meant nothing to people of that time. People today associate skin colour with race but our idea of race today is born of European imperial apologists, eugenics scholars and slave owners in the 18th through 19th centuries. By many of these definitions of the colonial times she would never be considered white because “whiteness” applied only to Anglo-French people not people from other parts of Europe like Ireland. Italy or Greece. Recall in 1960 the idea of an Irish Catholic president was horrifying to many, Irish people being considered inferior and Irish people faced discrimination as they fled Ireland during the potato famine.

Back on point. Scholars have generally identified Cleopatra as having been essentially of Greek ancestry with some Persian and Sogdian Iranian ancestry, based on the fact that her Macedonian Greek family (the Ptolemaic dynasty) had intermarried with the Seleucid dynasty.

We also have images from the time that depict her in the Greek style. So we can infer she would have looked like - most likely like a modern Greek or Middle Eastern woman. Bear in mind at the time even religious figures like Buddha were often depicted in the Greek style even if they could not have been Greek because it was fashionable.

How she looked is likely stylised in these artefacts because you tended to be executed if you were too honest…

[RunningMn9]

I’m still fairly confused but only because I think I agree with everything you are saying, except the way you keep softening the references to her being of Greek heritage.

I’m just saying that she was almost entirely of Greek heritage. Full stop. I don’t care what color her skin was.

[hitbyambulance]

if some people think that America is the end-all/be-all of racism, wait til they see some other parts of the world.... this country is doing rather well in comparison.

So you don’t believe we can be better? Or that we should even aspire to?

If we base our level of humanity solely on being better than someone else, where does that leave us?

that wasn't my point at all.

[hepcat]

Sorry if I misunderstood. What point were you trying to make?

Whenever I see a reply stating that other countries are worse than ours in some civil, political or social arena, my assumption is that they don't think we really have a problem because it's not as great as another's. Something I view as inherently wrong.

[Unagi]

I read Jada Pinkett Smith's quote in that article. I completely get the desire to show more 'Black Queens' or historical black influential figures. That being said, why not go all in and showcase a black historical figure whose story people barely know? Or showcase a figure who was undeniably black? Why pick someone whose ancestry was debatable? As her quote says "there are tons of them".

Good question, but the answer is the familiarity brings eyeballs.

My understanding is that Cleopatra is just one of the featured queens in this 'series', and that the others will probably be exactly what Raydude describes. Hence my whole "Disney shouldn't lead with Princess Leia" comment.

[hitbyambulance]

Sorry if I misunderstood. What point were you trying to make?

one that didn't really exist in this thread yet,,, my fault. but should it come up, i'll definitely link back to it.

[Grifman]

[Isgrimnur]

I got called a liberal by a old family friend who apparently mainlines NewsMax now for pushing back on her assertion that we murder folks trying to cross the border illegally.

[YellowKing]

My mom called me a liberal once because I supported free college tuition. For my kids. Who have to go to college...that I have to pay for.

[dbt1949]

You know, I don't think I ever discussed politics with my parents.

[Default]

My father was an American Baptist minister for most of his life. He mentioned with a kind of a sneer, that the NAB Association had become "too liberal" and was living off it's endowment. He said it would go under because the state associations were refusing to send the required monies for calling themselves "American Baptists".

This is the half that was opposed to slavery. "Too liberal".

[Kraken]

You know, I don't think I ever discussed politics with my parents.

My dad had strong opinions and so did I, when I got old enough to form some, but I was so naive that he demolished me every time. He didn't change my mind, but he made me stop arguing when he backed me into supporting Castro. The old man loved to argue and I was an unworthy teenage opponent.

I often wonder what he'd make of today's political landscape. I like to think we'd have some common ground. I was glad that he didn't live to see Abu Ghraib because that violated everything he believed about America as a WW2 vet. But he did become reactionary in his last few years, as we so often do.

Politics weren't part of my mom's world at all. She voted as she was told and never talked about it.

[dbt1949]

As a kid I did ask my mom which presidential candidate she voted for. It was Adlai Stevenson. Eisenhower of course won.