Are you woke?

[gbasden]

Also: This has been a terrifying thread to post in.

I think your examples of sympathy vs. empathy vs. compassion are spot on, which I would because I agree with you. Compassion calls to me as one of the highest virtues.

[Unagi]

I haven't seen the documentary, but IMO casting her as African would be as misleading as making her Elizabeth Taylor. Either one is fine for a work of fiction, not-so-fine in a doc, which by definition should strive for accuracy.

Nor have I, but I dare say it's not "as misleading". It's fair to describe Cleopatra as Egyptian or Arab or even maybe a bit African... None of which you would call Elizabeth Taylor.



Who do you think the real Cleopatra actually looked more like?
(the dream answer would be: Gal Gadot maybe - but honestly, I bet Cleopatra was more olive-skinned/darker complection than her.)

[RunningMn9]

And it only really ever bothers me when it's forced into IPs where that diversity isn't reflected in the source material. I know it's necessary - we can't get to the point where diversity doesn't feel forced until we normalize it on screen.

The oddity of that is that the source material is completely made up. What does it matter, portraying Aragorn as a black man? He's not real. (as a simple example)

Even the Cleopatra example, why would I care about the ethnicity of the actress? I'm annoyed by Jada Smith thinking that it's MORE authentic because she's a dummy and knows nothing about history.

[RunningMn9]

That's kinda close to what I was taught (and I teach). Empathy comes from being able to relate to someone's experience. I would never say to someone that lost their house in a tornado, "I know exactly what you're going through" - because I don't. Instead, I'd want to express sympathy - making sure the person knows I hear them and I'm going to do what I can to help (if they ask). When you can offer empathy, it's a stronger emotion but only if it's genuine - that you really can identify with what the other person experienced based on your own experiences. Trying to offer empathy (through words or actions) when you can't relate can be damaging.

Empathy doesn't come from relating to someone's experience, at least not as literally as you are suggesting. Empathy isn't "knowing exactly what you are going through." That's direct knowledge, not empathy. Empathy simply requires projection into a foreign experience and *feeling* the response.

I have never lost a child, but I have incredible empathy for those that have, because I can project into that circumstance and genuinely *feel* that sense of catastrophic loss. It's not the same as feeling bad for them.

Definition: the ability to understand and share the feelings of others.

I wouldn't expect a robot to understand.

[Victoria Raverna]

About diversity, what are your opinion about the black Cleopatra from the new Netflix documentary?

I supported black actress being casted as Little Mermaid. I'll also support black actress being casted as Cleopatra in a fictional historical movie, but I have problem with a black Cleopatra in a documentary.

Wait a minute, since when are Egyptians lily white?

Cleopatra was a Greek Macedonian from a family tree that was full of incest where brothers married sisters or first cousins.

Only four wives of her direct ancestors were not sisters of the kings and all of them were also Macedonians and descendants of Alexander's generals.

She was probably not lily white but she was not black at all.

[YellowKing]

The oddity of that is that the source material is completely made up. What does it matter, portraying Aragorn as a black man? He's not real. (as a simple example)

It doesn't, but that's where the innate prejudices come in. You're mind's eye pictured him this way, you grew up picturing him that way, and then it's changed to something completely different - it's jarring. Intellectually I know it's not logical, but feels-wise it bothers me - even when I know I shouldn't be bothered by it and even when I don't actually have a problem with it making the show/film more diverse.

That said, it's much more bothersome when it directly contradicts the source material than when the source material is vague. For instance, I LOOOOVE Idris Elba, but I was pissed when they cast him as Roland for the Dark Tower movie (turns out it didn't matter since that movie was utter garbage). But Roland is very specifically described in the book as to his look, and to change that is irritating to readers who have pictured that character a certain way for decades. And yes, I know Stephen King approved of the casting, but Stephen King doesn't seem to actually give a shit about any of his adaptations as long as he's getting paid (I say that as an absolute Stephen King diehard).

And to be fair, it's not just race. Casting Jonah Hill as Roland would have bothered me just as much.

I also think the closer you are to the source material, the more stuff like this can get to you. I didn't bat an eye at a black Little Mermaid. I have no attachment to an old cartoon mythical creature. But how many of us could say we'd not feel a moment's doubt about the next Star Wars series deciding to make Luke Skywalker black?

[Victoria Raverna]

I haven't seen the documentary, but IMO casting her as African would be as misleading as making her Elizabeth Taylor. Either one is fine for a work of fiction, not-so-fine in a doc, which by definition should strive for accuracy.

Nor have I, but I dare say it's not "as misleading". It's fair to describe Cleopatra as Egyptian or Arab or even maybe a bit African... None of which you would call Elizabeth Taylor.



Who do you think the real Cleopatra actually looked more like?
(the dream answer would be: Gal Gadot maybe - but honestly, I bet Cleopatra was more olive-skinned/darker complection than her.)

She was not an Egyptian by blood, she was Greek.

[Kraken]

Who do you think the real Cleopatra actually looked more like?
(the dream answer would be: Gal Gadot maybe - but honestly, I bet Cleopatra was more olive-skinned/darker complection than her.)

I'll choose the woman on the left. And time-traveled Liz Taylor. Together and in costume. I have to go to my bunk now.

(Not my most woke post ever)

[Blackhawk]

RE: Cleopatra, just because I like jumping on the bandwagon.

Like someone else said, I don't care what color she is in a film, but I care what color she is in a documentary. A documentary is supposed to be a presentation of facts. They don't do a documentary on early Anglo-Saxon life and have the roundhouses pink with yellow polka dots, or have the thatch be made made of cornsilk, simply because those aren't facts, so why go out of the way to misrepresent them? I don't expect historical documentaries (of which biographical are a subset) to be perfect, but I expect them to make an attempt at fact when it's practical. If they don't, I have to cast an much higher level of doubt on all of their other facts.

A film? Have her be a trans Inuit woman on a jet ski for all I care.

[Unagi]

She was not an Egyptian by blood, she was Greek.

And I said as much, before you.

She was Greek.

[Unagi]

I’m at a loss here.

What shade of skin should she have to represent Cleopatra to this level of documentary accuracy ?

Is there some swash of skin tones that have been approved for this eras Greeks? Were they homogenous? Is this actress so dark skinned that she just totally ruins the immersion ?

[Rumpy]

Yeah, I don't get the controversy, to be honest. If anything, I think we take it for granted that she would have been white, when it would have been accurate for people from that area to be darker. And we don't know, if we've whitewashed her through centuries of viewing it through the eyes of Westerners. It's pretty much a non-issue to me.

Edit: I missed the fact that it was a documentary. Oops! I thought it was more of a historical drama.

[Blackhawk]

I’m at a loss here.

What shade of skin should she have to represent Cleopatra to this level of documentary accuracy ?

Is there some swash of skin tones that have been approved for this eras Greeks? Were they homogenous? Is this actress so dark skinned that she just totally ruins the immersion ?

Don't ask me, ask the historians and genetic researchers. If you're doing that level of documentary, you probably already know where to find them.

[Blackhawk]

Yeah, I don't get the controversy, to be honest. If anything, I think we take it for granted that she would have been white, when it would have been accurate for people from that area to be darker. And we don't know, if we've whitewashed her through centuries of viewing it through the eyes of Westerners. It's pretty much a non-issue to me.

Actually, I always figured that she was Egyptian and dark skinned, and that we'd been Hollywooding her all along. I only learned that she was Greek... today. Other than some rough historical sketching-in here and there, my education bounced around her.

[Rumpy]

Even among the Greek, I'd imagine there are a wide range of skin pigments as well. She was likely more like something in-between, and for that reason It doesn't really bother me.

[gilraen]

Next thing they'll be saying Jesus wasn't white

(as an Ashkenazi Jew, I always found that particular debate...amusing)

[Grifman]

There’s something that many of you are missing - the issue about the Cleopatra “documentary” isn’t just the obvious skin color - it’s also how she is portrayed in the film. She is not portrayed as a Macedonian, but as a Black African.

This is the first of a series of films about historical “African” ie “Black” women whose stories Jada Plinkett wants to tell. So that is the context of this film. They are not just seeking to portray Cleopatra with darker skin, they are seeking to portray her as a Black African woman. Heck, there’s even a quote in the promo clip, “I don’t care what they teach you in school, but Cleopatra was Black”. With a quote like that this clearly isn’t history.

My area has a significant Greek community and I have known a number of them personally through the years. Some are fairly olive skinned, some are pretty light skinned. But none of them look anything like the actress portraying Cleopatra in this film. But even more importantly, we don’t have to guess what Cleopatra looked like! We also have contemporary ancient busts and coinage portraying Cleopatra (you can google them) and she is clearly not Black African.

So when it comes to the physical portrayal of Cleopatra, this film is anything but historical.

[Victoria Raverna]

According to the director, the decision to cast a black actress was political.

[Blackhawk]

This is the first of a series of films about historical “African” ie “Black” women whose stories Jada Plinkett wants to tell. So that is the context of this film. They are not just seeking to portray Cleopatra with darker skin, they are seeking to portray her as a Black African woman. Heck, there’s even a quote in the promo clip, “I don’t care what they teach you in school, but Cleopatra was Black”. With a quote like that this clearly isn’t history.

And now I'm back to not caring. It's fictional - Cleopatra can be a New York cab driver if they'd like.

[GreenGoo]

I would say that’s a powerful picture, but too many people would see that, and think that’s what is happening to that poor little white girl because of the woke mind virus.

I literally thought this was anti-woke propaganda when I saw it before I read the context.

[YellowKing]

Can you imagine the outcry if a white director said, "I don't care what they teach you in school, Harriet Tubman was white." I mean come on, at some point common sense has to prevail. I think this kind of stuff does nothing to help the cause.

[GreenGoo]

Can you imagine the outcry if a white director said, "I don't care what they teach you in school, Harriet Tubman was white." I mean come on, at some point common sense has to prevail. I think this kind of stuff does nothing to help the cause.

That's not what BH said. In BH's version, the director makes no claim as to the authenticity of his Tubman character.

And I'd extend BH's desire for accuracy in a documentary to accuracy in a fictionalized retelling of history. I don't mean "what if the nazis had won" fiction, I mean liberties taken with actual events for dramatic storytelling purposes.

If the character is supposed to represent the historical figure, then I want accuracy. If it's an alternate universe (or whatever) character, new york cabbie it is.

And that's only if I have a strong knowledge of the subject matter. I rarely care about specific individuals in history. Similarly, Domino will forever be a black woman with an awesome afro to me, because that was my first intro to the character, and the actress did an amazing job. Doesn't hurt that she is incredibly beautiful, I admit.

I think anyone who complained about Domino being black is an idiot.

[Victoria Raverna]

No problem with this:

[Grifman]

This is the first of a series of films about historical “African” ie “Black” women whose stories Jada Plinkett wants to tell. So that is the context of this film. They are not just seeking to portray Cleopatra with darker skin, they are seeking to portray her as a Black African woman. Heck, there’s even a quote in the promo clip, “I don’t care what they teach you in school, but Cleopatra was Black”. With a quote like that this clearly isn’t history.

And now I'm back to not caring. It's fictional - Cleopatra can be a New York cab driver if they'd like.

They are not presenting this as fictional. They interview a number of historians about Cleopatra in the film. The physical look of their Cleopatra is totally fiction, but the film purports to be a history documentary.

[Blackhawk]

When the director says they don't care about the history behind the documentary they're making because of politics, it's fiction. If they're presenting it as a documentary, they're being dishonest.

[Rumpy]

Yeah, I have to apologize on that front. I didn't realize this was a documentary. If they're presenting it as historically truth, then that's absolutely wrong. It's essentially whitewashing history, but ironically enough, from the other direction. It even sounds like it could be considered cultural appropriation.

[Jaymann]

I don't care what the whities say I want to see a movie with Jesus as a right on soul brother with a massive afro.

[Unagi]

There’s something that many of you are missing - the issue about the Cleopatra “documentary” isn’t just the obvious skin color - it’s also how she is portrayed in the film. She is not portrayed as a Macedonian, but as a Black African.

This is the first of a series of films about historical “African” ie “Black” women whose stories Jada Plinkett wants to tell. So that is the context of this film. They are not just seeking to portray Cleopatra with darker skin, they are seeking to portray her as a Black African woman. Heck, there’s even a quote in the promo clip, “I don’t care what they teach you in school, but Cleopatra was Black”.

I think you are right, in that I was missing that. I've not seen anything about the show before this thread mentioned it.
I did feel Pinkett Smith was simply trying to portray Cleopatra with darker skin. And I don't really mind that, as I know we don't know exactly what her skin tone was and her maternal heritage is basically unknown.


But the more you share about it, it does sound like Pinkett Smith is declaring she was African... and frankly I think that doesn't help her cause here. "Here are the great Black women of history!! Okay, this first one is maybe not actually African, but it's possible a little bit of her is."


However, I will say that my understanding is that if the maternal side of her family were indigenous women, they would’ve been African at that time in history. I think it's fair to not cast Cleopatra as just European / "White".

I also don't mind if they wanted to say she was an African Queen, in the way Princess Leia is a Disney Princess, for instance. But again, that seems to be the opposite of what Pinkett Smith is trying to say here.

Now I also feel that being a white guy, I feel some shame getting too finger-pointing about it.


I'll just hope it makes people look into it themselves.

[hepcat]

No problem with this:

The problem being that if this interpretation of The Little Mermaid is being touted as a historically correct documentary, then she should be 10 percent more fish.

...wait...what?

[Holman]

It's telling that a thread intended to explore our relationship to real historical and systemic injustices has bogged down into a debate over basically insignificant aesthetic choices.

[RunningMn9]

Can you imagine the outcry if a white director said, "I don't care what they teach you in school, Harriet Tubman was white." I mean come on, at some point common sense has to prevail. I think this kind of stuff does nothing to help the cause.

That’s what I’m saying. If this was just a movie about Cleopatra, it wouldn’t matter to me in the slightest. The problem is that a dunce like Jada Pinkett Smith is yammering about how this casting choice is purposefully historically accurate. Which it obviously is not.

She’s created the casting controversy. Would it have mattered if someone asked her about the casting choice and her answer was that the actress absolutely knocked the audition out of the park and that her performance is stunningly good?

I say no. And I know that because in my mind’s eye now, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and the oldest Schuyler sister are the performers in the Hamilton movie now. That’s how good they were.

[noxiousdog]

It's worth noting that the biggest criticism is coming from Egyptians.

FWIW, this is similiar to something my wife gets pissed off about. If you see Catherine of Aragon in a show, she's portrayed as latino. Not only is it not accurate as the ruling class of Spain was just as white as the rest of Europe, but also we have actual pictures of her as a red head.

[Victoria Raverna]

There’s something that many of you are missing - the issue about the Cleopatra “documentary” isn’t just the obvious skin color - it’s also how she is portrayed in the film. She is not portrayed as a Macedonian, but as a Black African.

This is the first of a series of films about historical “African” ie “Black” women whose stories Jada Plinkett wants to tell. So that is the context of this film. They are not just seeking to portray Cleopatra with darker skin, they are seeking to portray her as a Black African woman. Heck, there’s even a quote in the promo clip, “I don’t care what they teach you in school, but Cleopatra was Black”.

I think you are right, in that I was missing that. I've not seen anything about the show before this thread mentioned it.
I did feel Plinkett was simply trying to portray Cleopatra with darker skin. And I don't really mind that, as I know we don't know exactly what her skin tone was and her maternal heritage is basically unknown.


But the more you share about it, it does sound like Plinkett is declaring she was African... and frankly I think that doesn't help her cause here. "Here are the great Black women of history!! Okay, this first one is maybe not actually African, but it's possible a little bit of her is."


However, I will say that my understanding is that if the maternal side of her family were indigenous women, they would’ve been African at that time in history. I think it's fair to not cast Cleopatra as just European / "White".

I also don't mind if they wanted to say she was an African Queen, in the way Princess Leia is a Disney Princess, for instance. But again, that seems to be the opposite of what Plinkett is trying to say here.

Now I also feel that being a white guy, I feel some shame getting too finger-pointing about it.


I'll just hope it makes people look into it themselves.

Her maternal side was likely to be Cleopatra V half-sister of her father Ptolemy XII. Ptolemy XII was son of Ptolemy IX with unknown Greek concubine while Cleopatra V was daugther of Ptolemy IX with Cleopatra IV.

Now it is possible the official record was wrong or manipulated to boost Cleopatra VII's right to rule but there are no evidence at all that she was not Cleopatra V's daughter and her mother was an indigenous woman. Ptolemaic dynasty like to keep their blood pure by incest and marrying close relatives. There were only 4 official wives to the kings that were not part of their family and those are also descendant of Alexander's Macedonian generals.

[Blackhawk]

It's worth noting that the biggest criticism is coming from Egyptians.

And the Greeks are pretty unhappy as well, from what I read yesterday (which was the first time I'd ever heard of this.)

It's telling that a thread intended to explore our relationship to real historical and systemic injustices has bogged down into a debate over basically insignificant aesthetic choices.

I wouldn't say that's what happened at all. We have been having a debate (that we couldn't have most places) about when such choices are awesome, when they're inappropriate, and when they really don't matter, all because of those injustices you mention. I think a lot of us are using this discussion to work some of these things out for ourselves.

Trying to "explore our relationship to real historical and systemic injustices" requires society figuring out what it all means and adapting to it. These discussions are society figuring it out and adapting (and are why either side shutting down any dissent or questions is a terrible thing.)

[waitingtoconnect]

If you don’t like Starbuck as a girl, Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher, Tucker Carlson testicle tanning, the USS Titan-A as the Enterprise-G or cleopatra as depicted then I think it’s fair to offer comment but in my opinion it’s not that big a deal. Just don’t watch it.

It isn’t racist to say that Cleopatra VII was most likely of Greek background and based on documents of the time likely looked like a modern Greek woman. This is because her family were of that region, even resorting to sibling marriage to maintain their bloodline.

[RunningMn9]

It isn’t racist to say that Cleopatra VII was most likely of Greek background

I'm curious why you say "most likely". She was a ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty. It's not "most likely", it "is".

[Rumpy]

[

I wouldn't say that's what happened at all. We have been having a debate (that we couldn't have most places) about when such choices are awesome, when they're inappropriate, and when they really don't matter, all because of those injustices you mention. I think a lot of us are using this discussion to work some of these things out for ourselves.

Trying to "explore our relationship to real historical and systemic injustices" requires society figuring out what it all means and adapting to it. These discussions are society figuring it out and adapting (and are why either side shutting down any dissent or questions is a terrible thing.)

Yeah, and to be fair, this kind of discussion about Cleopatra has been had a lot over the course of centuries. I think it helps to clear the air and figure out the racial makeup of a time and place. And I still don't think we know for sure, as I don't think we have any DNA of her.

But at the same time, there are people who will flat out believe blanket statements made by documentaries, and that's where the danger lies.

[RunningMn9]

And I still don't think we know for sure, as I don't think we have any DNA of her.

But we do know for sure, and we don’t need DNA to know for sure. Maybe people have doubt because they personally don’t know? But in terms of those that study such things, there’s no confusion about her when it comes to her not being Egyptian (and certainly not being African).

[Rumpy]

Right, but I'm saying that it's not exactly a new debate, that it's something that's been debated for ages. This particular instance has only brought it back to the surface. I'm not debating whether it's wrong or not, there's a difference.

[RunningMn9]

Right, but I'm saying that it's not exactly a new debate, that it's something that's been debated for ages. This particular instance has only brought it back to the surface. I'm not debating whether it's wrong or not, there's a difference.

That’s what is confusing me. Who is debating it? Just random people that don’t know anything about history? I can’t imagine that there was ever a debate amongst scholars, right?